Demolisher balance

[FileMachete]

wait aaa second... @Boidster ? is that _you_ Neebs???  And Simon killed the motion sensor right?  Luv ur vids man!!

[Boidster]

I am not Neebs unless you owe Neebs a lot of money, in which case pay up.

[Kirtonos]

12 hours ago, Boidster said:

I am not Neebs unless you owe Neebs a lot of money, in which case pay up.

I totally just read this in Neebs' voice.

[BassmanWV]

Ideas 

 

1 - Make the green light area bigger to have snipers able to set them off before getting to the base.

 

2 - Change limb HP(?) so it’s easier to immobilize them. And/or include their need for an arm to make the explosion happen. Like they have to use a trigger in their hand to explode when they are close to a player, and blade traps could chop of arms easier when they are at the appropriate height. 

[Kosiam]

Until these OP mobs are nerfed I am out. Once again, TFP take something fun and make it complete BS.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Kosiam said:

Until these OP mobs are nerfed I am out. Once again, TFP take something fun and make it complete BS.

If you want to get the attention of a developer it would make more sense to start a new thread.

 

Meanwhile, if you play singleplayer and just want to nerf demos, edit Data\Config\entityclasses.xml in your install directory, search for the line with Explosion.BlockDamage and change that value to something less than 5000. Directly below that line is Explosion.EntityDamage, which you could decrease as well if you want to survive inside the blast radius.

 

There is nothing dangerous in editing these values and if you want to go back to vanilla, just use steams "verify", or edit the values back.

 

 

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, Kosiam said:

Until these OP mobs are nerfed I am out. Once again, TFP take something fun and make it complete BS.

Without Demolitions, I can just sit in my base and hold my M60 while I pull on the trigger mowing down waves of zombies while my turrets just annihilate the Z's.

 

Or I can have to constantly adjust my tactics during the Bloodmoon horde:  Throwing the kill switch on my turrets when I see / hear the D's show up, switch to sniper rifle and start shooting their heads with AP ammo; then switching back on defenses when they are not appearing.

 

Wonder which one makes for a more interesting defense play.......

[meganoth]

43 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Without Demolitions, I can just sit in my base and hold my M60 while I pull on the trigger mowing down waves of zombies while my turrets just annihilate the Z's.

 

Or I can have to constantly adjust my tactics during the Bloodmoon horde:  Throwing the kill switch on my turrets when I see / hear the D's show up, switch to sniper rifle and start shooting their heads with AP ammo; then switching back on defenses when they are not appearing.

 

Wonder which one makes for a more interesting defense play.......

For us with the knowledge to build bases that can handle demos that is easy to say.

 

In my last singleplayer game (which I played in a18) I built a base that was quite good as a standard zombie base but was likely a death trap with demos, I would have had to make extensive changes to it.

 

 

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

Wonder which one makes for a more interesting defense play.......

For me the most interesting gameplay would be to build a fully automatic zombie killing base and then on horde night I sit in front of the monitor armed with a bowl of popcorn and enjoy the show.

[Kosiam]

Thanks for the suggestion on modding. I have begun the journey and it is quite daunting but I will get there eventually.

 

On 3/29/2021 at 7:15 AM, BFT2020 said:

Without Demolitions, I can just sit in my base and hold my M60 while I pull on the trigger mowing down waves of zombies while my turrets just annihilate the Z's.

 

Or I can have to constantly adjust my tactics during the Bloodmoon horde:  Throwing the kill switch on my turrets when I see / hear the D's show up, switch to sniper rifle and start shooting their heads with AP ammo; then switching back on defenses when they are not appearing.

 

Wonder which one makes for a more interesting defense play.......

 

Congratulations on being a super player! Most of us can not reliably head shot *moving* and sometimes *jerking* targets and inevitably boom, base f'd. Your method does sound fun but when more than half the time at least 1 demo goes boom and then you have to either die or log does not equal fun. You imply I should consider you and your desires, but my friends and my desires do not make sense at all.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Kosiam said:

Thanks for the suggestion on modding. I have begun the journey and it is quite daunting but I will get there eventually.

 

 

Congratulations on being a super player! Most of us can not reliably head shot *moving* and sometimes *jerking* targets and inevitably boom, base f'd. Your method does sound fun but when more than half the time at least 1 demo goes boom and then you have to either die or log does not equal fun. You imply I should consider you and your desires, but my friends and my desires do not make sense at all.

Distribute the players so the demo is able to run between your positions. Always only shot the demo in the back. If he starts to bleep, shoot him with all you got.

If you got demos you also should be able to produce steel. And steel is able to withstand one demo exploding. Two blocks of steel withstand two demos exploding.

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kazgrel]

Funny seeing this thread here almost a year after my last post...

 

Demos are fine.  Annoying due to the threat they pose, yes.  But we've adapted our tactics and base building to accommodate their eventual arrival.

 

We basically fight fire with fire: Blow then up before they can blow you up (and/or your base).  They make the Perception tree one of the best late game perk trees thanks to Demo Expert.  Pop some Atom Junkies and a well placed rocket or couple grenades will do them in.  Our base is set up with a "sniping perch" but it's more of a "demo guy perch" since whoever is up there prioritizes blowing up any of the big threats before they can get too close.

 

Friends and I play on Insane w/ nightmare speed on blood moon, so if this works there, it can work anywhere.

 

I do kinda hate how demos essentially limit the potential of something like a melee base since a poorly aimed swing could set off the big kaboom but that could be something my crew looks into at some point (to try and solve). But TBH blowing up zeds by the dozens with grenades and rockets never gets old.

[paladylan]

After a year I see this thread is still up, alive and well with discussion(because I continually get emails with every reply), with many voicing their opinions on the mob at hand. Although I can say that my friends and I are taking a break from this game(mainly due to the endgame feeling cheesy still with the demolisher in its current state), I have thought about how fixes that do not directly affect it could be implemented to make it slightly more 'fair' to deal with him. As I iterated once before, I do not think that having a mob limit the potential of base building or gameplay style is healthy for a game.

 

-Make the demolisher affected by spikes. Slowing him down should give you a bigger window to deal with him, and make him easier to shoot. Allows the player some basic counterplay. To make this a bit more balanced, he could eat the spike health at 2x the normal zombies do when he walks over them.

-Make electric traps disable his bomb for a short amount of time. Hes shocked, so his device wont be able to be set off even if shot for a short duration.

-A new upgrade for buildings, you can apply a hardening liquid to blocks/walls that makes it more resistant to explosions.

Edited April 26, 2021 by paladylan
:) (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

5 hours ago, Kosiam said:

Congratulations on being a super player! Most of us can not reliably head shot *moving* and sometimes *jerking* targets and inevitably boom, base f'd. Your method does sound fun but when more than half the time at least 1 demo goes boom and then you have to either die or log does not equal fun. You imply I should consider you and your desires, but my friends and my desires do not make sense at all.

Actually, I really don't care how you play the game.  If you want to mod out the demos, go ahead and do it.  If you want to reduce their bomb damage to where they are just simply a walking firecracker, go ahead and do it.  More power to you.

 

What I didn't care for was your demand that TFP nerf the Demolishers because you are unable to handle them.

 

When the demolishers first came out, I struggled against them.  But I kept playing...kept learning what tactics worked against them and what didn't.  I still get the occasional demo explosion, but with knowledge came the ability to survive horde nights.

 

BTW - electric fences make it very easy to headshot zombies.

[Kosiam]

What I would really like to see is major revamp with the Blood Moon as a whole. I have never thought it normal per se, as how do they get some special ability to see me down at bedrock? Second part is the way party xp grouped up works, as it seems everyone shares xp for every kill where it should be kill xp divided by # in party. So basically the game pivoted on horde night and was a major BS moment for alot of us. But the game has gone through alot of change since A5 and most for the better. A19 def is the best yet. Might try rockets but by the time I got to 150GS I had not even established many skills to max. Anyway, enjoyed the suggestions and insights.

[doughphunghus]

Just an observation: it seems like players don’t like demolishes because their gamestyle is “build a base”  Like, an impenetrable fortress or just a well designed killing base. And those who don’t mind demolishes are more of “run around and shoot and take refuge when you need to”.  I’m betting part of the frustration when you grind a lot to get materials to make a great base, it’s annoying to have to keep grinding just to rebuild.

 

and some people probably just hate dying by by them.  Like, it’s hard to judge the distance to be safe, etc. 

 

I feel that TFP either made demolishes specifically to make you not be able to easily build inpenatrible  bases, or to lengthen the end game because you could never truly be “safe” until you mastered how to build out all the traps, etc. and had enough power to easily grind to get more materials to rebuild. Basically: demolishes are to punish you for not having super well done defenses, and enough of them to hold off demolishers. 
 

another theory could be they are just testing them out in their current form.

 

I play a lot of single player, and I have to use multiple POIs as bases so the demolishers are fun (for me) because whatever they blow up is just more danger, and I never rebuild whatever they blew up. I don’t have to grind to replace material. But If I get one at my “base I keep my stuff at” and I lose a lot

of stuff due to a demolisher, then I simply rage quit   but it was probably time to quit that run through anyway as I was having it too easy, being able to build up all that stuff.

 

ao yeah, I can see why they are not for everyone, but for some of us who like going from “0 to random hell raining from the sky” it’s a ...... blast

 

[7daysexpert]

On 3/29/2021 at 8:45 AM, RipClaw said:

For me the most interesting gameplay would be to build a fully automatic zombie killing base and then on horde night I sit in front of the monitor armed with a bowl of popcorn and enjoy the show.

great job rip no the devs are gonna make us pay double as joe did the knuckle wrap which if you know TFP is not a good sign XD

[RipClaw]

4 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

Just an observation: it seems like players don’t like demolishes because their gamestyle is “build a base”  Like, an impenetrable fortress or just a well designed killing base. And those who don’t mind demolishes are more of “run around and shoot and take refuge when you need to”.  I’m betting part of the frustration when you grind a lot to get materials to make a great base, it’s annoying to have to keep grinding just to rebuild.

It is certainly not nice to see something you have just built destroyed. The grinding itself is not the frustrating part. I used to listen to podcasts or music while mining. I spent days in the mine and even created whole tunnel systems under the map. Now that's no longer possible because of the digging zombies and the screamers that spawn every 2-3 minutes. I then have to interrupt and fight the screamer horde, and that's the really frustrating part. 
It's getting harder and harder to maintain a semi-peaceful play style. Everything is now about killing zombies.
 

4 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

I feel that TFP either made demolishes specifically to make you not be able to easily build inpenatrible  bases, or to lengthen the end game because you could never truly be “safe” until you mastered how to build out all the traps, etc. and had enough power to easily grind to get more materials to rebuild. Basically: demolishes are to punish you for not having super well done defenses, and enough of them to hold off demolishers.

Even with all the traps, you are not completely safe. One explosion and all the traps in one area are destroyed. Then there are the radioactive cops who can destroy the blade traps very easily with their spit. The only traps that remain are the dart traps and they consume huge amounts of iron.

 

The frustrating thing is that you don't need a base. I have also run around on the street and fought the zombies on foot. It was easier than building a base and that's the frustrating thing. A base should give you an advantage.

4 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

another theory could be they are just testing them out in their current form.

Since the demolishers have been in the game unchanged for a while, I doubt that any changes will be made.

4 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

I play a lot of single player, and I have to use multiple POIs as bases so the demolishers are fun (for me) because whatever they blow up is just more danger, and I never rebuild whatever they blew up. I don’t have to grind to replace material. But If I get one at my “base I keep my stuff at” and I lose a lot

of stuff due to a demolisher, then I simply rage quit   but it was probably time to quit that run through anyway as I was having it too easy, being able to build up all that stuff.

This is certainly a convenient way to play but it is also the least creative way. You're basically playing the game like a loot shooter and throwing the part of the game I love out the window.

4 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

ao yeah, I can see why they are not for everyone, but for some of us who like going from “0 to random hell raining from the sky” it’s a ...... blast

Good for you but not for people like me.
 

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

Just an observation: it seems like players don’t like demolishes because their gamestyle is “build a base”  Like, an impenetrable fortress or just a well designed killing base. And those who don’t mind demolishes are more of “run around and shoot and take refuge when you need to”.  I’m betting part of the frustration when you grind a lot to get materials to make a great base, it’s annoying to have to keep grinding just to rebuild.

 

Let me add another observation that I see lots of post by people who build a base and still don't complain about demos. Sure, the demo is the ultimate weapon against bases, but without it late game horde defense would be literally boring.

 

A few weeks ago I had a horde night with two friends who are relatively new to the game. We had demos before but at that horde night somehow lots of demos succeded at detonating (more than 5 I think). Our base (an augmented graveyard with church POI) was easily big enough and the demos not organized enough 😉 so nothing collapsed but we had lots of holes to fill and walls to repair.

 

Next horde night it seemed someone had learned a lesson and demos suddenly were handled with care and repairing afterwards was much easier.

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[starscream]

when faced with a problem, come up with a solution.

i have no problem with demolishers, using turrets, traps, melee or guns.

once my base proper is built that is. they can still wreck me if i tickle them on my starter horde base. which is fair.

[Boidster]

14 hours ago, Kosiam said:

Second part is the way party xp grouped up works, as it seems everyone shares xp for every kill where it should be kill xp divided by # in party.

 

You get a percentage of normal XP from kills in your party. More than  XP/n (where n=# of party members), but less than 100%. It is significant - like 80 or 90% in my 2-player game - and does turn horde night into an XP bonanza. I'm alright with that, considering the amount of work that goes into getting the base ready, but I do wish the multiplier were configurable. I haven't been able to find the parameter in the XML nor serverconfig, only the shared XP range.

 

It would be nice if the shared XP were more nuanced than "every party member gets X% of the XP", but adding that nuance is easier typed than coded. A full-on proportional-to-damage-dealt award (maybe with a small 10% spiff to non-participating party members) would be great. You do 60% dmg to zombie X, I do 40% dmg, you get 60% of XP, I get 40% XP, and Sir NotParticipatingInThisFight over there gets a 10% XP award for hanging out with cool kids like us. But that would be hard to code and probably not worth the effort.

 

Maybe a little easier is a 2-tier award system. If I do 100% of the damage to the zombie, I get 100% XP and party members get their 10% spiff. If any other party member contributes, then XP is divided amongst the entire party using a formula similar to how it is now. So no need for per-bullet damage tracking, just a toggle when Player 2 enters the fight. This at least tones down the XP bonanza for the party if I'm over at my corner of the base mowing down radiated with my M60 while they're diligently watching blade traps spinning 'round and 'round. Also the one-off kills when meandering about town - if I blow its head off, you get 10% and BE HAPPY WITH THAT.

 

Just adding the current multiplier into the UI so we can pick from a couple of options would be great, though. Or at least expose it in XML files. Or show my stupid face where it already lives...

[paladylan]

51 minutes ago, starscream said:

when faced with a problem, come up with a solution.

i have no problem with demolishers, using turrets, traps, melee or guns.

once my base proper is built that is. they can still wreck me if i tickle them on my starter horde base. which is fair.

Post a picture.

[meganoth]

24 minutes ago, Boidster said:

 

You get a percentage of normal XP from kills in your party. More than  XP/n (where n=# of party members), but less than 100%. It is significant - like 80 or 90% in my 2-player game - and does turn horde night into an XP bonanza. I'm alright with that, considering the amount of work that goes into getting the base ready, but I do wish the multiplier were configurable. I haven't been able to find the parameter in the XML nor serverconfig, only the shared XP range.

 

It would be nice if the shared XP were more nuanced than "every party member gets X% of the XP", but adding that nuance is easier typed than coded. A full-on proportional-to-damage-dealt award (maybe with a small 10% spiff to non-participating party members) would be great. You do 60% dmg to zombie X, I do 40% dmg, you get 60% of XP, I get 40% XP, and Sir NotParticipatingInThisFight over there gets a 10% XP award for hanging out with cool kids like us. But that would be hard to code and probably not worth the effort.

 

Maybe a little easier is a 2-tier award system. If I do 100% of the damage to the zombie, I get 100% XP and party members get their 10% spiff. If any other party member contributes, then XP is divided amongst the entire party using a formula similar to how it is now. So no need for per-bullet damage tracking, just a toggle when Player 2 enters the fight. This at least tones down the XP bonanza for the party if I'm over at my corner of the base mowing down radiated with my M60 while they're diligently watching blade traps spinning 'round and 'round. Also the one-off kills when meandering about town - if I blow its head off, you get 10% and BE HAPPY WITH THAT.

 

Just adding the current multiplier into the UI so we can pick from a couple of options would be great, though. Or at least expose it in XML files. Or show my stupid face where it already lives...

 

Distributing xp on behalf of who does the most damage is fine if everyone uses an m60.

 

But this usually is not the case and the agility player would get less xp just because he plays agility. 

 

Furthermore it disadvantages players who have specific roles, for example the one who has to repair the vault door or the one who has to (or elects to) remove stragglers from hitting on supportive structures instead of following the prescribed path. It disadvantages players who tag glowies with one shot so their self-healing is deactivated before they run into the trap corridor. It disadvantages players who take perks beneficial to the group instead of gun-related perks. It disadvantages players who try to conserve ammo.

 

I could see some need for this in open servers where you might group with relatively unknown players who might then just sit around and try to profit without doing anything. But in co-op games with trusted friends and carefully selected groups there is no need for this. 

 

Generally toning down xp gain for groups (or at least an xml setting to do this) would be beneficial though.

 

[starscream]

5 hours ago, paladylan said:

Post a picture.

 

of what, my strategy to fight demolishers? can't put that into a picture.

the most important thing about demolishers is that their button is on their top right side. tickle once to turn their ticker on, tickle twice to turn it off. it can also be set off by explosions near by.

you have to set up your base accordingly. any attack on the demolisher from their left, top, bottom or rear will not trigger them. so place your turrets in pillboxes a distance away from your base and have them shoot away from it. so any explosion will be far from your base. or place the turrets in such a way that they shoot zombies on any of the sides mentioned above.

 

i usually have a combo setup with turret pillboxes that shoot away and some turrets aimed at their back to soften them up, they'll have to pass through a trickle feeder, wave splitter, and/or any other traps i have placed, until they reach my personal defense area where i attack melee/gun on their left side supported by junk turrets.

 

i get very few demolisher explosions that i don't set off on purpose. rarely they do go off, for me that usually happens during lag spikes and i'm spraying bullets (my potato can't handle 64 max alive with multiple electric posts blasting away and sometimes frames drop to 15-20). but the base can herd zombies into multiple locations. if one becomes compromised, i close it off and direct zombies down another path. but so far haven't had the need as any location can survive 2 demo explosions.

 

i think this latest alpha (i skipped the last few) has become a better tower defense game as advertised, then previous alphas that i've played. i have to plan out routes, use mechanical walls activated by switches, etc. great fun for people like me who like making meticulous plans and seeing them played out (or blasted to ribbons). for example, never before did i have a base where a motion sensor camera on a timer periodically opens and closes corridors to split a zombie wave down separate paths. it took a while and many ruined bases to get here.

[Matt115]

Well i my opinion is way to eliminate this problem is  to nerf a demolisher reducing  explosion range an dmg halve and add some " tank" type of zombie - big , with a lot of hp but slowly something like trolls from lotr . Well demolishers are something like ur hai berserkers but they don't running with torch just are running with mines