Demolisher balance

[paladylan]

5 minutes ago, Ti2xGr said:

So, we discuss the entire book's balance based upon the three chapters that are finished, knowing the book isn't finished and we don't even have all the characters in the book yet. How do you expect to give opinions of the future weapons and features and how they balance to one of the newest characters in the game...without knowing or experiencing the new weapons first? Don't you get it? They're not adding a bit here and there. They are still in development. We're discussing the balance of the Demolisher, without knowing what weapons and future defenses will be in the game to combat them. It's a waste of a conversation, unless you think they are done with development and just making final tweaks. Since we know there will be at least an Alpha 20 (at least rumored), current balancing would technically throw off the power of the demolisher to the finished product. I love the discussion, but it's just for entertainment at this point. 

This isnt the same as reading a book where it is fluid and flows together continuously. The game is given in checkpoints(Alpha #s), and as of this "checkpoint", there is little counterplay for the demolisher, and it limits other aspects of the game. It would be logical to give them feedback on what is wrong in the current state of the game. They might not have had any plans for the demolisher to counter it, or maybe they don't realize its an issue. It would be logical to give them feedback incase they do not realize this mistake, rather than silently modding it and rolling the dice hoping they fix it in the next "checkpoint"(which would be apha 19). My guess as to why its so powerful is because it made it through limited playtesting without an issue, so they would not be aware of the problem unless it was brought to their attention. Never once did I mention it being a finished product, almost finished, or that they were adding little content and approaching the publishing of their game. This is how it works in every other game that is in development, even AAA games like Dota 2 see balance discussions and suggestions to improve the experience, should everyone sit with their tail between their legs because its in progress and use that as an excuse to not suggest things and hope they fix it on their own without player feedback?

[Ti2xGr]

1 minute ago, Xtrakicking said:

Dude, the fact that it's an alpha is 100% irrelevant. Feedback is always needed, early access or not.

It's really hard to give feedback on a product that hasn't been built. I can give feedback on an Ikea table, but wouldn't it be nice if we had all the pieces of the table manufactured first before we complain about the finished product. 

 

1. We don't have all the zombies created yet or have a clue what they look/act like. 

2. We don't have all the weapons/defenses created yet and don't have a clue what they are. 

 

What's the point? You're trying to give advice to the developers on what we don't know or even have a clue about. Are you an insider? Do you know what their whole finished game is going to be? If so, please share with me how this demolisher is unbalanced to "insert new weapon/defense here". 

[Xtrakicking]

1 minute ago, Ti2xGr said:

It's really hard to give feedback on a product that hasn't been built. I can give feedback on an Ikea table, but wouldn't it be nice if we had all the pieces of the table manufactured first before we complain about the finished product. 

 

1. We don't have all the zombies created yet or have a clue what they look/act like. 

2. We don't have all the weapons/defenses created yet and don't have a clue what they are. 

 

What's the point? You're trying to give advice to the developers on what we don't know or even have a clue about. Are you an insider? Do you know what their whole finished game is going to be? If so, please share with me how this demolisher is unbalanced to "insert new weapon/defense here". 

No, it's really not. We've been doing it for 7 years straight, and guess what, the devs have found it very useful, trust me. This game has undergone many design, gameplay and balance changes, not just based on the devs experience, but also on players experience. We had a very heated argument recently in the Dev diary where Madmole mentioned that all the feedback they receive, specifically from new players, is very important for them, because at this point it's hard for them to judge their game as a new player would judge it.

 

So yes, feedback is very important, even if it's an alpha game.

[Ti2xGr]

Alright. I fully agree. It's a very important thing to give feedback. Yes, you're right. I'll step out of this important conversation and continue playing a well balanced (for now) game, because I took a few personal minutes to change some numbers to temporarily balance what we currently have, knowing that what is coming down the pipe will eventually be a finished product. When Alpha 19 comes out this summer, I'll play that revision, and re-tweak as needed while you continue to discuss what Alpha20 should be.  

[Xtrakicking]

5 minutes ago, Ti2xGr said:

Alright. I fully agree. It's a very important thing to give feedback. Yes, you're right. I'll step out of this important conversation and continue playing a well balanced (for now) game, because I took a few personal minutes to change some numbers to temporarily balance what we currently have, knowing that what is coming down the pipe will eventually be a finished product. When Alpha 19 comes out this summer, I'll play that revision, and re-tweak as needed while you continue to discuss what Alpha20 should be.  

Cool! We'll be here giving the devs helpful feedback for the development. Cheers!

 

(Just for the record, I have my files modded too. Even so, I still give feedback on what I think the game could do better.)

Edited May 19, 2020 by Xtrakicking (see edit history)

[paladylan]

14 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Cool! We'll be here giving the devs helpful feedback for the development. Cheers!

 

(Just for the record, I have my files modded too. Even so, I still give feedback on what I think the game could do better.)

Exactly, Im not sure why giving feedback on an unfinished product where they value testing and player feedback is considered nonsensical, as opposed to silently modding the game and not giving devs feedback. Its one thing to whine and do nothing, but hes modding the game because he realizes there is an imbalance, and while modding is a temporary fix, not telling the devs about the problem you encountered is certain for a lack of change on the topic at hand. As a previously stated analogy, you would interrupt a chef if they were making a dish incorrectly, and suggest how to properly make it, even though its in progress, as opposed to sitting idly and letting him ruin the dish while you make it correctly on your own.

+1

Edited May 19, 2020 by paladylan (see edit history)

[Liesel Weppen]

8 hours ago, paladylan said:

There is no whining going on, I am not complaining about the zombie in a subjective way, because at normal settings the demo completely limits late game possibilities on multiple aspects, it's poor game design.

You don't notice that you apply your playstyle, do you? Demos limit base building, yes.

 

Quote

Your solution is like playing an FPS where a gun does almost no damage, and your proposition is "just mod it and play", why should it be that way in the first place?

Your solution is, that obviously you think 7D2D is a tower defense and the demos brake this pure tower defense gameplay.... But 7d2d is not a pure tower defense, nor a pure FPS. But you want to change the game like you personally would prefer it. Did you even take into account that some people WANT to play rogue like, so after some time they reach a point where surviving ist NOT possible anymore?

They way you are complaining is the pure definition of SUBJECTIVE.

 

Quote

Should we not discuss gameplay mechanics and features that we deem unfun, unfair, or damaging to the game so mods are not required to have a fun experience? If we do not point out these problems, then they will never be fixed. There is a difference between constructive analysis and feedback and whining

And like always those discussion end up at "i like to play this way, so change this in that way" and "but i like to play different, so change it in the exact opposite way". You reached that point already some posts ago. Average intelligent people conclude: There is no game mechanic possible, that suits every playstyle best. Less intelligent people still think, "every possible playstyle" is like they play the game and still discussing how to make them game without mods best for "every" player.

Besides the already thousands of threads that complained about the demolishers. Repeating it over and over doesn't help, i'm sure TFP noticed that many people don't like the demos. Your personal WHINING is not required anymore. Your analysis is not constructive, but highly subjective. Even less construcitve because you just WHINE and haven't made a single suggestion on how it could be made better.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)

[paladylan]

15 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

You don't notice that you apply your playstyle, do you? Demos limit base building, yes.

 

Your solution is, that obviously you think 7D2D is a tower defense and the demos brake this pure tower defense gameplay.... But 7d2d is not a pure tower defense, nor a pure FPS. But you want to change the game like you personally would prefer it.

They way you are complaining is the pure definition of SUBJECTIVE.

 

And like always those discussion end up at "i like to play this way, so change this in that way" and "but i like to play different, so change it in the exact opposite way". You reached that point already some posts ago. Average intelligent people conclude: There is no game mechanic possible, that suits every playstyle best. Less intelligent people still think, "every possible playstyle" is like they play the game and still discussing how to make them game without mods best for "every" player.

Besides the already thousands of threads that complained about the demolishers. Repeating it over and over doesn't help, i'm sure TFP noticed that many people don't like the demos. Your personal WHINING is not required anymore. Your analysis is not constructive, but highly subjective. Even less construcitve because you just WHINE and haven't made a single suggestion on how it could be made better.

I love that you needed to strawman  my entire argument as me trying to play 7d2d as a "tower defense game", its quite laughable. I dont even know where to start with your post because it jumps to so many conclusions and clearly emits a bias. Building a base is a selling point of the game, and a core mechanic as to why it is a unique survival game. Ah yes, lets just completely make one way of playing absolutely trash, and then say its complaining, excellent deduction! With the demo zombie, they severely LIMIT this mechanic for ANYONE who wants to build a base, and makes most of the end game items completely useless, like the turrets that will set off the demo zombie. Do you think its good game design to severely limit creativity in one of the main selling points of the game, and make a whole category of items(electricity/traps) handicapped? But im sure you think that means the entire game is a tower defense game, right?  Also, I don't know where you got "I like to play this waay, so change it", as I previously stated, why make a category of late game completely obsolete? Its a poor game design choice. I'm not saying that every playstyle needs to be perfect, but LATE GAME ITEMS should be an option for the LATE GAME. Im not asking to use primitive bows in late game, these are late game items that currently serve little purpose because of one zombie. Also, my suggestion was rather to not nerf the stats of the zombie, but to change the concept of the zombie in some way. I'm not whining, I didn't complain about how "OMG THIS ZOMBIE SUCKS REMOVE IT NOW!!!!". All you did was @%$*#! at my post and call it "whining", while trying to be demeaning with throwing insults like "less intelligent players"(lol, ironic) around.

Edited May 19, 2020 by paladylan (see edit history)

[Liesel Weppen]

You understood absolutely nothing from my post. *ignore*

 

Keep on WHINING.

[Hollowprime]

The worst thing is they have a detonator on top of them as if someone put it on them and set them free.

This concept looks like it was made out of a fantasy rpg game like borderlands instead of a survival game like fallout.

 

I'd much rather have a fully armored mutated soldier that occasionally shoots with his rifle, or is holding a huge club of rebar frame with concrete on it. Hell I'd be even ok if they were on fire , had a melting effect on iron bases and would summon hordes periodically.

 

Literally anything that what the demolishers currently represent.

[Sakurambo]

4 hours ago, paladylan said:

With the demo zombie, they severely LIMIT this mechanic for ANYONE who wants to build a base, and makes most of the end game items completely useless, like the turrets that will set off the demo zombie

like i posted before if the turrets are pointing at their back they didn't set them off

it's really an aspect of the game that requires you to adapt while you progress on the game: at first you can use simple defense like spikes and barbed wire, later on you had to change your tactics and move on to more advanced defences sistem, like electric fences and dart traps or turrets

[Hollowprime]

26 minutes ago, Sakurambo said:

like i posted before if the turrets are pointing at their back they didn't set them off

it's really an aspect of the game that requires you to adapt while you progress on the game: at first you can use simple defense like spikes and barbed wire, later on you had to change your tactics and move on to more advanced defences sistem, like electric fences and dart traps or turrets

how do you make turrets target their back ? The zombies are coming for you facing your direction. You place the turrets facing your direction. I don't remember being able to rotate turrets so that you can drop them midair from the back of the zombies. Also blade traps set them off.

 

Edit: What about turrets? Do you hide them underneath facing you upwards so they can shoot zombies on their backs?

Edited May 19, 2020 by Hollowprime (see edit history)

[Sakurambo]

i was talking about shotgun turrets and smg turrets, paladylan was talking about late game defences, not junk turrets

[meganoth]

My group had built a horde base with a large staircase (3 blocks wide) coming up to our level, with a platform half way up and turrets behind). It was something like this (P = platform, T = turrets).

       T

>>> P <<<

       V

       V

[upper level]

 

There were 4 shotgun turrets there. I didn't see much of it as I was running around at ground level (I was shotgun guy), but judging by the low damage on the stairs demos generally did not get activated by the turrets. Probably most were activated or even killed before reaching the platform, so I'm not 100% sure about my conclusion. But I'd say there is a good chance that design did work quite well against demos.

 

------------------------------------

 

I'm also sure that TFP wants to hear feedback of all kinds (this is one of the two main reasons to do EA in the first place).

Everyone is free to **discuss** this subject, but (and this is me speaking as a moderator now) please keep it civil

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by meganoth (see edit history)

[blugold1]

I didn’t read all of the comments, but you just need to rethink your base designs to accommodate the demolishers.  With the exception of vultures, this base will literally take care of the whole blood moon for you.  And it only uses 4 electric fence posts, 4 trip wires, and 8 dart traps. 
 

Day 130 Blood Moon:

 

How to Build:

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by blugold1 (see edit history)

[FileMachete]

@Hollowprime, I think it was Vedui, or JaWoodle (both?) who did a good youtube vid exploring various Shotgun Turret placements vs setting off demolishers.

 

And I'd bet one of them has experimented with how to set up Blade Traps to work against demolishers.

 

My experiance from earlier alphas led me to try elevating the path zeds walk on by half a block so blade traps only hit taller zeds, demos/cops/wights/etc, in the head.

Which so far has worked well against demolishers. Though I think if zeds start stacking up on top of each other, then it would be possible for the blade trap to set off a demolisher.

 

Just my .02 cents: horde nights have become more Win/Fail, with a narrower gap between the two than previously.

Which can/has resulted in bases becoming 'overpowered', so they're less likely to Fail, so there's less drama or excitement.

Something seemingly not worth noticing is impactful; the Nailgun firing slower than previously, making keeping up w repairs more challenging.

So bases get designed/built that don't even expect to be repaired during horde night.

Wasn't & isn't a huge deal to design for Cop puke & gut bombs; protect switches/traps, be able to back up, etc.

Yet while cop damage is non-trivial, and needs to be respected, having a couple few get through & go Boom! doesn't generally mean your base will fail.

Demolishers take Boom! to a whole new level, and, maybe, it's a rung or two too far.

While the design adjustments due to cop puke were mainly location tweaks, designing to endure multiple demolishers going off can be radical.

Of course, there are lots of very basic base designs that can easily endure demolishers (just a number of 5x5x4 r-concrete pillars will do) but where's the fun?

If there's very little chance of a base failing then, to me, there's less fun to be had, and less satisfaction in surviving the horde.

---

Was looking through old ss's & came across this. One of the largest bases I ever built in 7dtd.

If someone is motivated enough they could build something like the perimeter of this 16.2 base & soften up demos before they reached the chewy center

 

[Dimpy]

9 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Did you even take into account that some people WANT to play rogue like, so after some time they reach a point where surviving ist NOT possible anymore?

As both a fan of roguelikes and tower defense games, I'd say that the inevitable end where things get too hard to continue mechanic is about equally prevalent in both genres. In other words, asking for better Tower Defense does not mean asking for less sharp difficulty spikes.

9 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Your personal WHINING is not required anymore. Your analysis is not constructive, but highly subjective. Even less construcitve because you just WHINE and haven't made a single suggestion on how it could be made better.

It's common for game developers to value their player's feelings on a subject a lot more than the things players suggest to fix the problems.

[paladylan]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

My group had built a horde base with a large staircase (3 blocks wide) coming up to our level, with a platform half way up and turrets behind). It was something like this (P = platform, T = turrets).

       T

>>> P <<<

       V

       V

[upper level]

 

 

Do you by chance have a screenshot of this so its a bit easier to visualize? Thanks for the ideas in advance.

 

 

Also, as many other people have posted, I drew a small stair design in paint(its very basic, and from a bilateral view) incase anyone in the future is having trouble visualizing what some people mean with putting turrets so zombies are shot from behind.

 

The graphic has zombies chasing the player upstairs while the turrets shoot them in the back. You could possibly add electric fences near the stairs to slow them down(perhaps when they come within view of the turrets for maximum efficiency).

 

Blade traps seem like they only hinder late game base design(due to triggering demos) unless you apply a zed filtering system, or make it on the third block height to only target demo heads. Hopefully they add more traps in the future( i know they are adding a melee turret in A19, which is pretty unique), as the "Advanced Engineering" does feel a bit underwhelming in terms of unlocks, but its still a good tree overall.

Edited May 19, 2020 by paladylan (see edit history)

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, paladylan said:

Do you by chance have a screenshot of this so its a bit easier to visualize? Thanks for the ideas in advance.

Sorry, I threw away the files when we restarted with a new world

 

[Sellsents]

The point for me is, that bases are built now to handle demolishers and the demolishers alone. Thats what people are afraid of. Nobody other than pure beginners really care about the other zombies and thats sad. All you do from day one is focusing on building a defense that is focused on that one zombie. This for me is a negative thing, since the only purpose of the demolisher seems to be to make life harder for the veteran crowds, who else would be bored to death by now since they play for a long time and know how to handle the rest of the zombies.

 

The creativity of basebuilding was taken away because of people playing this game for so long, that they need more and more challenges. Like junkies waiting for the next kick. This is what I see for too long now going on in the forums and it hurts the game in my opinion very greatly.

[Ti2xGr]

8 hours ago, Sellsents said:

The point for me is, that bases are built now to handle demolishers and the demolishers alone. Thats what people are afraid of. Nobody other than pure beginners really care about the other zombies and thats sad. All you do from day one is focusing on building a defense that is focused on that one zombie. This for me is a negative thing, since the only purpose of the demolisher seems to be to make life harder for the veteran crowds, who else would be bored to death by now since they play for a long time and know how to handle the rest of the zombies.

 

The creativity of basebuilding was taken away because of people playing this game for so long, that they need more and more challenges. Like junkies waiting for the next kick. This is what I see for too long now going on in the forums and it hurts the game in my opinion very greatly.

I'll post a picture of our current base later today. It is the exact opposite. We built a square base with completely different defenses on each side - electric fence with water trap on one side, maze and dart traps on another side, shotgun turrets and fire traps on another side, and blade trap and spikes on yet the other side. We purposefully don't build defenses base on various known bulletproof defenses shared/discovered. I honestly think it's one of our most creative bases yet and we're not done yet. I was wandering our map the other day and came across another base design that I had never seen before and was enthralled by it. We don't design for a specific zombie. We build semi-organically and watch to see how the zombies handle it and adapt accordingly.  Mind you, we have thrown in a few custom zombies from Snufkin's Custom Zombie pack which has forced us to re-think some of the defenses anyway. 

 

There are different ways to play the game. We're not playing to win. We're playing to live in the world, experiment, and explore. 

[Kirtonos]

To OP's original question before the thread started debating the completeness of a 7 year old game still in Alpha or that it was advertised as having tower defense elements on Kickstarter...

The way I balanced Demo's for my group was changing the zombie referenced from army soldier to fat zombie. This kept the HP but removed the damage reduction and armor. I then increased the detonate time by 2s and made it stop counting down on death so that it has parity with the cop. There was also an additional damage reduction mod (if I remember correctly) that I removed as well since it looked like it was double dipping on damage reduction.

Everything else remains as is. This keeps it as a fast moving, spike mowing juggernaut with serious block damage capability that you have to deal with quickly. It has plenty of HP to soak bullets but TTK isn't too high especially in a crowd. Weapons required to quickly kill one remains broad instead of being reliant on an M60. The base building tactics of shooting one from behind to avoid triggering it are still there. 

Oh, and I changed the XP mod to be inline with a cop since it was lower for no good reason for such a threat. 

[Dethar]

I have had no issues with demolishers. I'm usually higher than they are so its much easier to hit them in head. With metal bars at least 2 blocks out so if attacking my base i have no worries about setting them off, by shooting them from behind. When i do use shotgun turrets, i place them away from my base to shoot incoming Z's.

[Noctoras]

On 5/19/2020 at 1:08 AM, Ti2xGr said:

A few observations after adjusting to Demolishers (and some modlets with other new zombies).

 

Yes, it is not balanced out of the gate for some. Adapt - Where you would put one block thick, do two. Relatively easy solution. 

 

You can change the gamestages, limiting the rarity of these particular zombies if you so desire. Heck, you can edit them out if you want. 

 

You can adjust how much block damage they do in a variety of ways. You can even adjust if they plow through spikes or get damaged by them and how much.

You CAN adapt to a lot. If it's fun is an entirely different story.

 

I for one spend horde nights in temp bases or just floor level with an M60 and mow it all down. It feels so pointless to build a beautiful, strong base and end up not only with the mentioned destroyed steel blocks, but with a crater landscape of swiss cheese at my front door - all the while doing what I do at ground level as well, hold an M60 and shoot. 

 

The base serves little purpose these days. It costs a lot of energy and basically doesn't really add much. Frankly speaking, the demolisher doesn't add to the game, it just makes you go for a sepcific playstyle. And I don't want to have to resort to cheese bases or dart trap armies only. 

 

To me, the variety of playstyles possible makes 7D2D what it is. And the demo doesn't add here, it takes away. 

[Lemmers]

Blood Moon is easy to survive by climbing any brick POI, busting out ladders or stairs that reach you, and simply shooting down as zombies mass on the floors underneath. Buildings with open floor designs like the church or theater work the best as you have a clear line of sight all the way to the ground floor from a high upper level. It honestly feels so cheap, but effective and I've never had a POI fall even when using the same building multiple weeks in a row.

I finally built a fun base closer to the ground after day 60 something... and by the second demolisher it was breached and overrun. I think the explosion damage is reasonable, but they have waaay too many hit points for that kind of role. A suicide bomber type enemy should be easy to spot, easy to hear, and easy to take down with a few good shots. I'm shooting a level 6 marksman rifle with full mods and 4/5 perks and it feels like I'm just tickling him with headshots right now. Maybe I just suck, but it isn't very fun and feels extremely unfair.

IMO change the demolisher character model into a berserker enemy. Keep the same HP but he attacks individual blocks with a club for massive damage. Maybe he's intelligent enough to target support blocks and weak walls. Then make the suicide bomber enemy a nice weaker target, with lots of flashing lights and beeping so players keep alert and prioritize them, and get punished for not paying attention if they get close to your walls and explode. That seems like it would be a more fair system, even if you throw a steady stream of bombers at the player to increase the challenge.