How and why current food poisoning is bad design.

[Alphado-Jaki]

There are 2 bursting threads, relating food recently. One is about about current cooking is not working well, the other is poll on food spoilage. IMO, current food poisoning is badly designed. I've read many opinions, pros, cons in those 2 thread, and considered myself. Then I analyzed what or how bad, and what will fix system as following. This is slightly off-topic in those 2, so I make new thread. Leave your comment or opinion freely.

Also, I'm a modder, so I'll make them as mod myself, if there is a chance.

 

First, I know current system is wip and dev have never said it as final. My point is even if benefit for food is added, it won't fix current un-judicious food poisoning, so that they need to change itself as well as adding benefit.

 

TL;DR

System has problem:

[*]Keep stomach full, get more punishment

[*]Food poisoning effect is lacking reasoning

[*]Cooking skill is not nice counterplan, in contrast eating one give immunity

Potential fix:

• Puke food only eaten in 1 (real) hour instead of everything

• with small constant penalty, like 10 or 10%

• Canned food should have penalty. In this case, canned food last long in stomach to be puked.

 

Keep stomach full, get more punishment.

Once we get food poisoning, puke everything leaving 30. This ruins the plan to keep stomach full.

Think about following case, "You are at level 1. Eventually you find crate filled with vegetable stew." Here is a choice, how frequently you eat them? You don't wanna waste them nor get stamina penalty. Most probable choice is when your max stamina start decreasing. (Of course eat at base.)

However, this is the worst choice with consideration on food poisoning risk. Along with this plan, you lose your current food(99-30) with food value from stew(32) so lose 101 total, if you puke. There is another choice, eat only can food you find until food get to 50. In this choice, you lose 52 = (50-30) + 32 if you puke. Now you see bad design in system; Keep stomach full, get more punishment, even though getting hungry has stamina penalty as well as food poisoning.

 

Potential fix is to use decreasing some value, instead of losing everything. Like constant; 30 or 50. Although constant works in early game, get to nothing in late game. N-percent reduction results fail as well as now, because dev shall increase probability. I propose another better value than constant in next section.

 

Food poisoning effect is lacking reasoning

Food is day-by-day activity everyone is doing, so punishment should have fair reason (not only reality) of deserving; otherwise it's just annoying. Then, what is it/them? Following is as far as I come up with.

1. Depending on easy food
   
2. Eating too many at a time (abusing for heal)
   
3. Eating without drinking
   
4. Eating only cans
   
5. Nutrition imbalances
   

1st is dealt already. For 2nd, current puking CAN deal, but losing everything is excessive as I said in previous section. Lose everything, but only eaten in period, like last 1 (real) hour will work as punishment more specifically. 3rd can be easily tweaked in, but it change nothing because water is plenty in a18. For 4th, giving food poisoning risk seems to work, but this change kills the choice that eat here or bring back for cooking. New choice is scrap or bring back, no one will eat them. Thus I suggest another change instead, ineffective digesting. Most of can ingredients are too salted, oily or compressed, so takes time to digest and exposed to risk of puked in next food for long time. 5th is too complicated to handle with a small number of recipes.

 

Therefore, food poisoning result in losing only eaten in 1 (real) hour. Canned food is hard to digest, so have risk to be puked in next cooked foods (such as in 2 hours). Also, continuous food poisoning should have some penalty, so losing 10 or 10% of food with prior penalty.

 

Cooking skill is not nice counterplan, in contrast eating one give immunity

IMO, this is the worst thing in the system. With iron gut, I don't need to spec in master chef 2. Baked/boiled meat, potato, corn works perfectly, and Living of the land makes matter worse. You can take those 2 perks in FRT, why other recipes are needed?

Well, however there are many people saying like "Dislike puking? Perk iron gut and you win", so I put this problem last. I completely can't understand their thought, but iron gut seems as beloved.

Potential fix will be, nerfing iron gut, adding much cooked food benefit equivalent to food poisoning immunity, or food spoilage?

Only thing I'm sure is not only changing food poisoning, but also other decent changes are needed for this balancing. So I hope to find something nice in cooking thread or food spoilage one later.

 

At last, I'd say I don't dislike food poisoning itself, I dislike because it's poorly implemented. And I approve an idea which food poisoning should affect game play. In old alpha, it was dead. No effect existed to survival. I hope this post will give some information to improve this system.

[Ghostlight]

Well I think the mechanic sucks for the following far more simple reasons:

 

1. Early game, when food is scarce and the effect of food poisoning would be devastating, players can just mass canned food instead and thus avoid the mechanic completely. Canned food is plentiful via a combination of Buried Treasure quests, vending machines and looting kitchens. It's a pain but do-able.

 

2. Mid- and late-game when you have the ability to make tons of cooked food, you just risk it. If a Meat Stew poisons you, meh, just eat 3 more to get over it.

 

Either way, pointless.

[Katitof]

All of that wall of text and random ideas because you refuse to put 2 points in iron gut perk?

[theFlu]

What's a death worth these days? 25% exp? What's a level worth these days? 1 skill point. 2 points in Iron gut plus the required fortitude is 16 deaths worth of XP, and somehow my silly suggestion of swapping food poisoning into an instant death was ridiculous hyperbole, while sacrificing 16 deaths to mitigate it by half it is completely logical..

[Alphado-Jaki]

@Ghostlight

1. Yeah, right. Therefore player won't use cooked food in early time, even if benefit is added.

2. Yep. Also, I think top tier recipe/seed schema is too easy to obtain. If you get them, food issue is pointless, but this is natural result. This is because you are on top tier of food and no remaining progression. Of course.

So, I think top tier food balancing and food poisoning should be discussed separatedly

 

@Katitof

If you feel it fun or challenging that just using 2pt to migrate penalty, go ahead.

If you want more complex and better survival experience, stay here to listen to other's idea.

No one will stop you.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

@theFlu

I have no idea what you are saying, lol

[theFlu]

@theFlu

I have no idea what you are saying, lol

 

Heh, sorry, just a continuation of an earlier exhange between katty and me. An inside joke, if you will.

[Liesel Weppen]

2. Yep. Also, I think top tier recipe/seed schema is too easy to obtain. If you get them, food issue is pointless, but this is natural result. This is because you are on top tier of food and no remaining progression. Of course.

And because of this, food poisoning should be tied to the cooking skill of the cook, not a fixed poisoning chance for the meal.

If a master chef lvl5 cooked the meal it has poisoning chance of 0%, if a noob cooked it, it has a chance of 5%. That would also make master chef worth skilling even if you find books for different receips.

 

But all of that was already discussed in various threads. I don't think you can discuss poisoning and balancing separatly, because all these values influence each other.

[Ghostlight]

And because of this, food poisoning should be tied to the cooking skill of the cook, not a fixed poisoning chance for the meal.

If a master chef lvl5 cooked the meal it has poisoning chance of 0%, if a noob cooked it, it has a chance of 5%. That would also make master chef worth skilling even if you find books for different receips.

 

Well, I'm convinced. This is actually a really nice idea.

[Liesel Weppen]

But it has other drawbacks. I assume to implement this, each meal needs custom stats... and that would then propably be like the weapons. Which means, you can't stack the meals anymore, not even that ones with equal values.

 

On the other hand, not being able to stack self cooked meals, might make handling a little bit more difficult and reduce the food overproduction.

[Alphado-Jaki]

Good idea. This makes cooking skill useful.

 

Stack ability?

How about bundling like ammo? I don't see any case need to re-bundle, so make bundle in base and open when needed seems to work.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

On the other hand, not being able to stack self cooked meals, might make handling a little bit more difficult and reduce the food overproduction.

Lol.

[Chronosphere]

silly complaints, lazy complaintz, that is all i see, the game is easy to play, why do u make it out to be hard? i mean my first day i always can have up too 100 meat plus also can have shotgun and bow and arrrows, i dont get why people complain so much about this, there is several options available for you. i never have issues with food poison. and also after day 3 i am set on food charred or canned, or grilled, depends on the playtrough if i get early pot and grill. if i dont i get dukes then i buy food or drinks. sure 14% isa risk, and i had the ♥♥♥♥s 1 time out 5 playtroughs first week. again i dont see the issues its being a bad design. its rather think before u eat and a challenge to keep staybalized.

[theFlu]

i never have issues with food poison.

No-one else does either. That's the biggest issue anyone seems to have with it...

[Laz Man]

silly complaints, lazy complaintz, that is all i see, the game is easy to play, why do u make it out to be hard? i mean my first day i always can have up too 100 meat plus also can have shotgun and bow and arrrows, i dont get why people complain so much about this, there is several options available for you. i never have issues with food poison. and also after day 3 i am set on food charred or canned, or grilled, depends on the playtrough if i get early pot and grill. if i dont i get dukes then i buy food or drinks. sure 14% isa risk, and i had the ♥♥♥♥s 1 time out 5 playtroughs first week. again i dont see the issues its being a bad design. its rather think before u eat and a challenge to keep staybalized.

 

I agree for the most part. It's not perfect but it's simple and works for now. I wouldnt be against it getting improved as long as it doesnt get overly complicated/imbalanced...

[Hek Harris]

On my last game, I scrapped all the canned food I found. I only ate cooked food and vegetables.

That was great and the food poisoning made sense. Vitamins too ^^.

You should try.

[n2n1]

@Alphado-Jaki

It makes no sense to describe the shortcomings of the current this stupid system, you just lose time.

 

 

All of that wall of text and random ideas because you refuse to put 2 points in iron gut perk?

I don't understand what you're saying... What other perks? Do you solve the problem with perks?

How many would you perks not have made - nonsense will remain nonsense.

[Ghostlight]

No-one else does either. That's the biggest issue anyone seems to have with it...

 

Exactly. When it's dangerous it's super-easy to avoid using canned food. Then later it's harmless either because you have enough food that its effect is meaningless or you pop a vitamin and eat what you like.

[Laz Man]

Exactly. When it's dangerous it's super-easy to avoid using canned food. Then later it's harmless either because you have enough food that its effect is meaningless or you pop a vitamin and eat what you like.

 

At least you have choices and every solution is finite and requires effort. The old system was farm and forget about it first couple of days. In comparison it's better then the old system. 😂

[asmosnuts]

Another food poisoning thread,seriously! Its a non-issue and doesnt hamper you in any way at all. Its mildly inconvenient at best.

[theFlu]

Its a non-issue and doesnt hamper you in any way at all. Its mildly inconvenient at best.

 

Exactly, so we're asking to make it better? So that it actually feels like a food poisoning when you get it?

[Sjustus548]

When I first started playing A18 I hated the food poisoning aspect of the game. I was getting food poisoning like crazy and it was so annoying. Now that I've played A18 between 200 and 300 hours it is not an issue anymore. I don't have any points in Iron Gut nor do I use vitamins before eating and I don't remember when the last time I've gotten food poisoning. I don't see it being as big of an issue anymore.

[seagas]

When I first started playing A18 I hated the food poisoning aspect of the game. I was getting food poisoning like crazy and it was so annoying. Now that I've played A18 between 200 and 300 hours it is not an issue anymore. I don't have any points in Iron Gut nor do I use vitamins before eating and I don't remember when the last time I've gotten food poisoning. I don't see it being as big of an issue anymore.

 

Me neither, however when I do get it it seems to happen at the worst possible time and a couple of times in a row. Much like the lockpick, I can pick 3 or 4 safes in a row and not lose a pick or I 3-4 four in a row on one safe.

[Viktoriusiii]

Just gonna leave this here, because I am tired of it:

 

Good design:

Do "A" to "B" that might involve "C" that can lead to "D" or "E" which eventually can be overcome by "F".......

 

Bad design:

Do "A" which leads you to doing more of "A" again.

 

One is a gameplay circle that involves the player and his descision.

The other one is a diceroll simulator.

[Laz Man]

Just gonna leave this here, because I am tired of it:

 

Good design:

Do "A" to "B" that might involve "C" that can lead to "D" or "E" which eventually can be overcome by "F".......

 

Bad design:

Do "A" which leads you to doing more of "A" again.

 

One is a gameplay circle that involves the player and his descision.

The other one is a diceroll simulator.

 

Would be nice if great design was such a simple thing you can just substitute a few letters in. Which great games out there uses this design? 😂😂😂

[Viktoriusiii]

Would be nice if great design was such a simple thing you can just substitute a few letters in. Which great games out there uses this design? 😂😂😂

 

It is a simplyfied concept.

And EVERY GAME EVER uses this concept. Basicially, it is very hard to find a gameplay mechanic that is a challange and completely isolated by itself.

If you have a gamemechanic, it is connected to a lot of other mechanics.

I explained this plenty, so I won't give examples again that will be nitpicked because my base point is not understood, sorry.

[DeadGerry]

Just gonna leave this here, because I am tired of it:

 

Good design:

Do "A" to "B" that might involve "C" that can lead to "D" or "E" which eventually can be overcome by "F".......

 

Bad design:

Do "A" which leads you to doing more of "A" again.

 

One is a gameplay circle that involves the player and his descision.

The other one is a diceroll simulator.

 

Like...

 

find food, canned, cooked and raw. Eat or cook food.... which might lead to food poisoning, which can cause death or inconvenience, but can be over come by using canned food, using vitamins or perking?