Hoes- For gardening

[Kattla]

If you want 0% you need to hunt a little, you need to farm a little, you need to loot a little.

A simple concept that aligns with survival progression and ensures that all the content involving food is seen and utilized by all players.

 

Nay. Farming is a waste of resources, if you can get the secret shamway recipe.

Logic is broken, considering the what is used to make can of sham. Not a high food value, but free of food poisoning.

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[AtomicUs5000]

Nay. Farming is a waste of resources, if you can get the secret shamway recipe.

Logic is broken, considering the what is used to make can of sham. Not a high food value, but free of food poisoning.

 

I'm not fully understanding what you mean. Just because it is possible to find something in game like this, doesn't nullify everything. If and when you get that will vary greatly from game to game.

[Hollowprime]

I'm personally ok with farming plots as a design but not as an execution. I've posted this on another thread:

 

We need realism back in the game. If you've played zomboid you'd know it's not hard to find seeds and make a little bit of soil. The hard part is watering the plants (this can be automated on 7d2d) and taking care of the plants that grow very slowly.

Hoe is not necessary but farm plots should work as a super fertilizer like in A16 . Feeding the crops with water and taking care of them should be a bigger focus.

 

Some ideas I've gathered from other games like zomboid, don't starve, the long dark and the forest:

 

-Finding seeds should be fairly common

-You randomly gather seeds from harvesting plants.

-Food rot should act as a fertilizer (not as an ingredient)

-Seeds are edible

-Watering the plants is mandatory (but can be automated)

-Adding rot to the plant is necessary when the soil nutrients are drained but is not needed for crafting the farm plot

-Plants take a lot of days to grow (at least a weak) but since they can be planted en masse the provide a lot of positive gain

-Crops can be destroyed by zombies

-Food degradation is mandatory as it adds a difficulty level as well as a means to get fertilizer in the game.

[RipClaw]

I can think of a few.

 

1) Dont have to travel to the desert for long aloe gathering trips

 

In A17 I would have agreed with you but in A18 the tier 1 quests give you so many healing bandages and first aid kits that you have a large supply. Also, once you have a proper armor, you rarely bleed.

 

2) Can have ingredients to make more efficient foods out of your stockpile of meat.

 

This is true, but you can also get the ingredients in other ways. One point in Living of the Land and you get double the amount even for wild plants and the trader sells the ingredients as well.

 

3) Higher stat foods lessen the pain of eating a bunch to recover if you get sick

 

You only get sick from cooked food. Canned food is safe and if you take vitamins you can even eat old sandwiches without getting food poisoning.

 

That canned food has given food poisoning in A17 has been an important incentive for farming. This is lost in A18.

 

4) Corn for making grain alcohol

 

You can find grain alcohol in larger amounts in medical piles. Moreover, grain alcohol is only used in a few recipes and none of it is produced in large quantities.

 

5) More food means I dont have to constantly spend dukes and make daily trips to some vending machines.

 

The canned food is not that expensive and the vending machines can be found in many POIs. So you don't have to travel far.

And you can find a lot of canned food while looting.

 

Also, not much grinding, u need bones anyway so you are automatically collecting rotten flesh even if you dont plan to garden. None of the other ingredients are a grind.

 

I tested that. I just drove around for 2 full days and collected the roadkills. I also looted two Doggos and killed 5 or 6 vultures. In the end I was able to make 20 farm plots. If I had done that without grinding, it probably would have taken 2 or 3 weeks to get the same amount of rotten meat.

 

Oh ya not to mention stuff like moonshine and learning elixirs, pretty sure those need some kind of farming ingredients. I havent got Into making stuff like that yet, but if I find a recipe for them or whatever, It would definitely be helpful to have a supply of whatever they need to be made. (those might be perk only I am not sure, just added it on whim)

 

Moonshine is in my opinion funny but useless. You see everything twice and blurry and you can't fight properly.

 

The Learn'n Elixir needs 2 cans of dog food, a flash acid, 2 jars of red tea and a jar of beer. Dog food and acid can only be bought or found. You can make the red tea yourself but you can find the flowers in large quantities so that a garden is not necessary. Beer is often found when looting and can also be bought from vending machines.

[Guest]

edit: I see someone else just made a point by point reaction right before mine, I missed that. Apologies for doubling up on some of the arguments.

 

I can think of a few.

 

1) Dont have to travel to the desert for long aloe gathering trips

 

Currently playing in the desert, day 44, warrior difficulty, and focusing melee. I think I made a couple of first aid bandages myself because I happened to find the recipe, but quickly discovered regular bandages (that stack to 10 instead of 5) to stop bleeds is all you really need. The lost health can easily be recovered with painkillers (if you're in a rush) or.. canned food.

 

2) Can have ingredients to make more efficient foods out of your stockpile of meat.

 

Sure, but the foods that don't make me sick (and waste a ton of food as a result) are efficient enough. I've barely touched the meat I found in almost 60 hours of playing A18, why go through the trouble and waste perk points to stack useless potatoes on top of that?

 

3) Higher stat foods lessen the pain of eating a bunch to recover if you get sick

 

Again, canned food does this, and better.

 

4) Corn for making grain alcohol

 

Why would you need grain alcohol? The medkits that stack to 5, are overkill for most wounds and are easily replaced with.. regular bandages and pain killers (until you perk into self healing at least).

 

5) More food means I dont have to constantly spend dukes and make daily trips to some vending machines.

 

Are you playing MP with low loot or something? Because in my SP games I've used vending machines a handful of times, but never had to rely on them.

 

Oh ya not to mention stuff like moonshine and learning elixirs

 

Almost completely useless imho. 20% extra XP isn't going to do anything by the time you're able to craft learnin' elixir. Unless you can make so much it's permanently active, but if that's the case, you're probably so far along that more XP won't really matter anyways.

I don't even remember what moonshine does, but I doubt it's worth the backpack slot it occupies. I rarely use the buffing items anyways. They're pure and simple "win more" stuff that just sits on your tool belt for a special occasion that never comes.

 

My point in typing all this out is not to join in with the "plots too expensive" crowd, since I don't really have an issue with the material cost. My point it that you go through the trouble of doing something the immersive/realistic way, only to find out that that opening a few kitchen cabinets would've netted you better results. And then there's the Secret Shamway recipe to turn all other food into a joke, should you run into it.

 

The whole bloody skill/perk/ability whatever system is like this. Some perks are made redundant by other perks or stuff you find in the world, while others are more or less must haves for any playthrough.

 

The ♥♥♥♥ty part is that it's going to stay like this into gold, because with the carpet bomb-style of updating that TFP has adopted, it's going to take ages to sort through the feedback and balance out the different abilities and items in a meaningful way.

[Kattla]

I'm not fully understanding what you mean. Just because it is possible to find something in game like this, doesn't nullify everything. If and when you get that will vary greatly from game to game.

 

We can make non-poisonous food with rotten meat, fat and bones, and the thing we make with fresh ingredients are "contaminated". It just don't make any sense whatsoever. At least, not to me.

[Pichii]

I see it the other way around.

 

If farming is not necessary, many will ignore it. It is also not the case that one could waste a lot of points. So you will have to decide whether to put points in "Living of the Land" or not.

 

There is currently no incentive to create a garden and if you think about doing it it is connected with a lot of grinding which is not much fun.

 

My sentiments exactly. There is 0 point because of effort needed to use it.

Sure, you CAN use it as it sits and I agree, this is still the best gardening has been in 7d2d so far...

But... Its still uncomplete.

I love farming but I flat out ignore it in A18 just because I have too much other stuff to do and cant be asseed to look for bears at level 1 for the meat I need for a farm or tracking and attacking dogs. You flat NEED other things to survive first and you can get food during those trials so gardening is moot.

Combine that with the lost damage, defence and craftables youd lose from the perks you have to re-invest; its genuinely structured for mid-late game when it should be at least somewhat viable at all stages.

We have gone thru this dance before. If its not worth it; it gets ignored cept by ppl who enjoy farming. If its too good; everyone does it and theres 0 challenge to gathering food.

I just want it useful at ALL stages of the game, not just certain spots.

And dont get me wrong; you can MAKE anything work.

But gardening is definately feels super bad in the early game especially when it could be doing the most work and id like to see some slight rebalancing.

 

Increase recipie costs again and make it so you can just garden with a harvest of 1 regardless of other modifyers wit a hoe.

Gardening is good at all stages again. Still limited by finding/crafting a hoe as well. Problems solved.

[AtomicUs5000]

We can make non-poisonous food with rotten meat, fat and bones, and the thing we make with fresh ingredients are "contaminated". It just don't make any sense whatsoever. At least, not to me.

Oh I see. Yeah, that’s weird... but you know, Shamway Foods had the best chemists. They figured out exactly the right amount of bones and lead-based paint required. They were so good at it that Oscar Meyer just couldn’t keep up with the competitive prices.

[Hek Harris]

On my last game, I don't use vending machines, I don't buy food at the trader and I set the loot rate at 50%.

And I can tell you that agriculture is great...

Different playstyles = different needs.

 

Farming has NEVER been important in 7 days: killing animals and eating grilled meat have always been enough. With the alpha 18 and the different buffs brought by the food, growing our own plants can be interesting, but for that you have to play with the parameters.

[AtomicUs5000]

Setting aside criticisms and ideas of things that could make farming better, I have a feeling that this is just a part of something more to come. I don’t think the suggestion I made will be used as I described it in full, but I do think the plan is to introduce recipes involving farmed + canned and different buffs along with them.

I think this because madmole keeps mentioning wanting these buffs added and there is that recipes thread that was separated from the dev diary just before A18 came out.

[Pichii]

I can think of a few.

 

1) Dont have to travel to the desert for long aloe gathering trips

2) Can have ingredients to make more efficient foods out of your stockpile of meat.

3) Higher stat foods lessen the pain of eating a bunch to recover if you get sick

4) Corn for making grain alcohol

5) More food means I dont have to constantly spend dukes and make daily trips to some vending machines.

 

Also, not much grinding, u need bones anyway so you are automatically collecting rotten flesh even if you dont plan to garden. None of the other ingredients are a grind.

 

Oh ya not to mention stuff like moonshine and learning elixirs, pretty sure those need some kind of farming ingredients. I havent got Into making stuff like that yet, but if I find a recipe for them or whatever, It would definitely be helpful to have a supply of whatever they need to be made. (those might be perk only I am not sure, just added it on whim)

 

Yeah, some basic food and CANNED CAT FOOD.

You have to loot to get the super-tier stuff.

lol

 

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On my last game, I don't use vending machines, I don't buy food at the trader and I set the loot rate at 50%.

And I can tell you that agriculture is great...

Different playstyles = different needs.

 

Farming has NEVER been important in 7 days: killing animals and eating grilled meat have always been enough. With the alpha 18 and the different buffs brought by the food, growing our own plants can be interesting, but for that you have to play with the parameters.

 

When did you first start playing? A17?

Farrming was indeed important in A15/16. lmao!

EVERYONE had a farm by day 7. x'D

 

Yeah, its your playstle to use a farm but its totally unnecessary and the slowest option which is part of the point of this discussion.

[Hek Harris]

When did you first start playing? A17?

A8.

[PPanda0421]

Yeah, some basic food and CANNED CAT FOOD.

You have to loot to get the super-tier stuff.

lol

 

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Uh 7D2D is all about looting...

 

 

When did you first start playing? A17?

Farrming was indeed important in A15/16. lmao!

EVERYONE had a farm by day 7. x'D

 

Yeah, its your playstle to use a farm but its totally unnecessary and the slowest option which is part of the point of this discussion.

 

Yeah its your play style if you want to farm or not, that's fine.

 

Looking at another point of view buying canned foods is total unnecessary for us farmers. Right now, I have a decent size farm that produces enough crops every 3 - 4 days (/w default settings) that I can make 10 steak and potato meals each harvest. That's not including other crops that I can use to make drinks/healing. I previously speced for farming/gathering resources so right now I have over 20 stacks of steak and potato meals in storage. I always carry a stack of food steak and potatos meal and a stack of red tea with me. Only takes up 2 inventory slots. Other slots can be used for other loot.

 

To me what's slow is traveling around to different vending machines (daily) hoping they sell enough food to satisfy me for the day. Vending machines are random since they also sell drinks. Farms are guaranteed.

 

IMHO, vending machines are for early game. Progression for me is when I can produce my own food.

 

However if you like vending machines that's fine. Play whichever game style suits you.

[Katitof]

snip

 

Why do you want something that was scrapped completely?

It was no effort, all reward thing with zero downside, especially after farming revamp when we no longer need to re-plant everything.

[Maynard69]

Yeah, some basic food and CANNED CAT FOOD.

You have to loot to get the super-tier stuff.

lol

 

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When did you first start playing? A17?

Farrming was indeed important in A15/16. lmao!

EVERYONE had a farm by day 7. x'D

 

Yeah, its your playstle to use a farm but its totally unnecessary and the slowest option which is part of the point of this discussion.

 

Pretty sure that is intended. You are assuming that having everything you need by day7 is a good thing. I dont see it that way for sure. Having to work towards self reliance only makes sense for a survival game.

 

Also being able to cheese your Max HPs up with that OP farm you started on day2 (and make grain alcohol which you could have stamina forever) was, well, cheesy like a Pizza Hut walk-in .

[RipClaw]

Pretty sure that is intended. You are assuming that having everything you need by day7 is a good thing. I dont see it that way for sure. Having to work towards self reliance only makes sense for a survival game.

 

Also being able to cheese your Max HPs up with that OP farm you started on day2 (and make grain alcohol which you could have stamina forever) was, well, cheesy like a Pizza Hut walk-in .

 

I got some news for you. You can't drink grain alcohol anymore. It was changed back in Alpha 16. It's only an ingredient for certain recipes.

 

Beer still works but only for 30 seconds. The same is true for Grandpas Moonshine. But the side effects makes both pretty much useless.

 

If you need increased stamina regeneration without side effects then coffee is your drink. Red tea works also, but only provides 15% additional stamina regeneration instead of 25%. But since chrysanthemums grow everywhere in the green, you can make red tea on day 1 even without a garden.

[Gothyc]

Pretty sure that is intended. You are assuming that having everything you need by day7 is a good thing. I dont see it that way for sure. Having to work towards self reliance only makes sense for a survival game.

 

Also being able to cheese your Max HPs up with that OP farm you started on day2 (and make grain alcohol which you could have stamina forever) was, well, cheesy like a Pizza Hut walk-in .

 

Good luck with becoming a farmer on day 2. You need Fortitude 5 and 3 levels of Living off the Land, to begin with. Meanwhile, everyone else get corresponding levels of their perk trees to be able to fight and loot better.

[Hollowprime]

We can make non-poisonous food with rotten meat, fat and bones, and the thing we make with fresh ingredients are "contaminated". It just don't make any sense whatsoever. At least, not to me.

 

That's sad but very true.

To add insult to the injruy:

-Seeds require 5 crops when 1 is more than enough

-We can magically harvest more crops by leveling up fortitude

-Plants do not require water to grow and there is no irrigation system despite pipes being in the game

-Intelligence and chemistry is not required for crafting fertilizer.

-You can literally plant seeds 6~12 inches in the dirt with your hands , water it often with a bottle and watch it grow, but for some reason infected meat is better

[Onarr]

I see it the other way around.

 

If farming is not necessary, many will ignore it. It is also not the case that one could waste a lot of points. So you will have to decide whether to put points in "Living of the Land" or not.

 

There is currently no incentive to create a garden and if you think about doing it it is connected with a lot of grinding which is not much fun.

 

Well my incentive is easy food and water, so I dont have to bother with looting cupboards, fridges etc. That gives me more time to loot the sweet stuff.

 

Also grandpa elixirs require plenty of plants. Moonshine is beast when clearing lvl 5 PoI rooms at the end. Lrn elixir is godlike during horde and bartering elixir is pretty usefull too.

[katarynna]

Good luck with becoming a farmer on day 2. You need Fortitude 5 and 3 levels of Living off the Land, to begin with. Meanwhile, everyone else get corresponding levels of their perk trees to be able to fight and loot better.

 

On day 2 I had crafted and placed 2 farm plots and planted looted seeds in them. Now on day 10, I have 12 plots, 10 of them planted. I still can't craft seeds, so I plant what I find. But I am definitely farming, have been since day 2, and have at least one of most plants.

 

I now have level 1 in living off the land.

 

Yes, I am building up my farm slowly. But since I play single-player, I could live off the farm about now or maybe after a couple more seeds without much canned food supplementation. I now only eat canned food when I am out and about and farmed food when at my base.

 

I find I am really enjoying the slow build-up and each plot feels like an accomplishment.

 

I use all the food in game now. I take my largest stack or two of canned food for looting or mining trips due to no chance of food poisoning just to top off a bit if needed. I eat home-cooked food to fill to max before leaving my base and upon returning to it, since if i throw it up i can just eat more.

 

I auto scrapped canned food after like day 3 in other alphas, since I would make a hoe before I would make an iron pickaxe or shovel and get a large farm going asap. It was efficient, but felt like something i was checking off of a to-do list. Now food feels like part of the game, and something I spend at least some time thinking about and planning for throughout the early to mid game.

[tricorius]

-We can magically harvest more crops by leveling up fortitude

 

It is amazing what one can accomplish with some additional knowledge and hard work...