Thoughts on the new zombie "rage" mechanic

[enragedcamel]

After killing hundreds of zombies in melee in A18, I think I've pinpointed the issue I have with the new "rage" mechanic.

 

It has the action and reward mixed up.

 

You hit a zombie, and you get rewarded with MORE risk.

 

IMO it should be the other way around: zombies should randomly gain speed while coming at you, and successfully landing hits should stagger/slow them down to normal speed.

 

Dying Light had combat nailed down perfectly:

 

 

Notice how zombies are normally very slow, but will frequently "dash" at and try to grab the player.

[qbot3000]

But at least this way you have the choice. If you initiate combat, you never know what you’re going to get. You control the risk, though, by avoiding them if you want. If they randomly started out slow or fast, then you couldn’t travel across the map unmolested if you wanted to, because any zombie you come across could be a fast one.

 

I like the new rage mechanic - I think it makes combat interesting again.

[warmer]

But at least this way you have the choice. If you initiate combat, you never know what you’re going to get. You control the risk, though, by avoiding them if you want... I like the new rage mechanic - I think it makes combat interesting again.

 

100% agree. The old system made combat "tedious" not exciting. This makes you have to think much more dynamically, which is what this game was missing.

 

Previously combat was more strategy, where as now, it is more action oriented due to the unpredictable nature.

 

I understand the OP's perspective on Dying light, but 7D2D use of rage makes a rather SLOW paced game much more exciting for moments. I forget ALL the time that this is a thing and it give me a jolt every time.

[Xackery]

This seems to favor high damage skills over low damage ones in melee. E.g. hand to hand, knives, and batons curve very poorly compared to clubs or sledge. The most sane choice is javelin if small damage is all you can do at your game stage, due to it's nearly double range to others, but even then, it is debatable due to the high risk of rage happening.

 

This also adds an element of risk to using junk turrets early game, since if they aren't high damage/fully upgraded they can cause zombies to run at you with the rage factor in if they do little damage and don't finish the zombie.

 

If you can kill a zombie in a single attack, they never rage. If you widdle them down, they inevitably rage and cause melee to be a lot more difficult.

 

This makes a sledge or club the ideal choices, since clubs can 100% chance knockdown with power attack, and sledges hit so hard depending on game difficulty, you can one shot them even without power attack. I find myself preferring going into a risk radius, hitting once with a "big hit" or guarenteed knockdown over hitting for small damage with each hit causing ~4 different outcomes: A stutter of movement, a knockdown, a rage movement, or a normal walk speed. The less you have to experience that potential burst chance in mob AI, the more predictable melee becomes.

 

Since str has sexual trex as well to make power attacks more viable, I can't see myself ever focusing perception with javelin, fort with knuckles or agility with knives or int with baton if I plan to focus on melee, unless I want to be masochistic/play extra cautious assuming every hit they're going to potentially dash.

 

That's my thoughts on rage. It makes me not want to use certain melee styles.

 

On dying light note, I played it on the hardest possible difficulty and the only viable way to kill zombies en mass in melee was attracting them to a location they couldn't elegantly go to (e.g. an elevated point on a car or platform), jumping down and doing an execution attack. The one that caused a slight stagger on nearby zombies was my preferred, since I could jump up again and repeat this method endlessly. The less variables to AI you have to deal with, the more ideal melee becomes.

[Teal]

I haven't given other weapon types a go yet but knives and machetes have surprisingly good stagger rates which makes it easy to 1v1 most zombies.(this is with weighted head mod, if that makes a difference)

It's definitely something to get used to and, well, you get used to it. It's certainly a step in the right direction for melee combat. Melee animations and swing arcs could use tuning though.

[Sjustus548]

I'm not a big fan of the rage mechanic so far. If I didn't play on Insane, or if melee weapons would actually be able to hit when I swung instead of missing so many times, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Currently I feel like melee just comes at too big of a risk to make it worth playing. I'll just stick with my trusty pump shotgun.

[pApA^LeGBa]

It´s another indicator that the Z´s were only beeing used because of Zombie Hype Train. Why even have zombies and not mutants in the first place if you don´t want them to behave like zombies?

 

Pretty sure a lot of people, propably including me, wouldn´t have bought a game with mutants.

 

Also how about fixing the hitboxes before introducing mechanics like this? Not very far in the A18 yet, but i already had several swings that shouldn´t have missed.

 

Also this favors guns a lot. Wich sucks. We have enough FPS out there. This plus 3 different weapons and over 100 bullets on day one (all default besides difficulty) are making this a FPS game.

[Kalarro]

Well hitting them still stuns and knockdowns them with most weapons. You are rewarded with that.

If we take damage out of the ecuating, saying the zombie will survive 10 seconds and you have to be on mele range, hitting him all the time will make me safer due to stuns and knockdowns even with the possible enrage, than not hitting him for those 10 secods.

[Scyris]

I'm not a big fan of the rage mechanic so far. If I didn't play on Insane, or if melee weapons would actually be able to hit when I swung instead of missing so many times, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Currently I feel like melee just comes at too big of a risk to make it worth playing. I'll just stick with my trusty pump shotgun.

 

I like the sledge hammers, 3 in the sledgehammer skill and a decent steel sledge with mods can 1 shot zombies on warrior difficulty, at least the normal ones, can 1 shot ferals on headshot power attacks too by this point. Should take even less if on nomad or adventurer to pull this off. When I am using sledge and I got a zombie running at me, I just power attack its torso, it'll usually knock down pretty much any zombie for easy headshots after. Hitting the head with a melee weapon on a running zombie is a major pain in the arse in a18 because of the wonky as hell hit boxes. I've had my sledge go right thru a zombies head but not register any damage many times, it mostly happens on runners.

[Scyris]

It´s another indicator that the Z´s were only beeing used because of Zombie Hype Train. Why even have zombies and not mutants in the first place if you don´t want them to behave like zombies?

 

Pretty sure a lot of people, propably including me, wouldn´t have bought a game with mutants.

 

Also how about fixing the hitboxes before introducing mechanics like this? Not very far in the A18 yet, but i already had several swings that shouldn´t have missed.

 

Also this favors guns a lot. Wich sucks. We have enough FPS out there. This plus 3 different weapons and over 100 bullets on day one (all default besides difficulty) are making this a FPS game.

 

Yeah archery is kinda screwed in multiple ways, the lack of feathers, the fact you have to spec into agi to make bow actually viable, where as any gun at a decent tier will be useful even unperked. I like my t4 pistols with 50+ base damage, even when I have 0 agi, they still can kill normal zombies in 2 headshots on warrior difficulty. I say warrior because above nomad players damage dealing ability takes a hit. Think warrior is zombies hit 50% harder than nomad, and player deals about 13 or 17% less damage, those were a17.4 numbers, but I suspect they are the same, I can confirm at least the damage zombies do is correct.

[Kalarro]

Yeah archery is kinda screwed in multiple ways, the lack of feathers, the fact you have to spec into agi to make bow actually viable, where as any gun at a decent tier will be useful even unperked. I like my t4 pistols with 50+ base damage, even when I have 0 agi, they still can kill normal zombies in 2 headshots on warrior difficulty. I say warrior because above nomad players damage dealing ability takes a hit. Think warrior is zombies hit 50% harder than nomad, and player deals about 13 or 17% less damage, those were a17.4 numbers, but I suspect they are the same, I can confirm at least the damage zombies do is correct.

 

Yup. Later alphas have been making fireguns more and more the normal thing. IMO the normal thing should be mele and bows and spears, and fireguns should be the exception, at least until lategame.

[gcomerfo]

I like it, but I think it should not happen on the first couple days, during the "safe" time when you are just starting. Kind of like how temp and hunger don't really start right away on you for Day 1

[Kalarro]

I like it, but I think it should not happen on the first couple days, during the "safe" time when you are just starting. Kind of like how temp and hunger don't really start right away on you for Day 1

 

Yeah, and then when they get used to fighting zombies, they surprise them with a new behaviour and they are toast!

 

"Oh, you thought I would always walk slow, Mr brand new level 5? Surprise motherfker!!"

 

you are one mean guy!

[Kattla]

I like the rage mechanic, but miss the stagger effect clubs used to have. But then, melee was quite possible super op in previous alphas , and i don't mind it beeing a bit more challenging now. At least something new to learn.

[jdm311]

I like it because it adds variety to timing attacks. Each alpha I've played since I started in A15 required melee timing calibration. Once you get the movement rhythms down of zombie swagger and weapon timing, they were cake to defeat. Now there is always that uncertainty as to if they will speed up and throw off that timing. It gets the adrenaline pumping and is exhilarating, especially in enclosed spaces. Xackery made a good point about avoiding it with higher weapon damage. If you can one-hit most z's with the sledge, why wouldn't you use it? Since I found an Iron sledge, I perked into it and never looked back. If a crowd of z's are coming after me, I'll try to line 2 right next to each other and take off both their heads in one hit. But you can't remove rage entirely using this method. Groups of zombies hitting each other, falling from above, or running into traps trigger the feature too. Mikey likes it.

[Morloc]

After more experience with it, I think I'd prefer if its duration was shorter (perhaps 1/3). This would still force me to pay attention, but when I choose to run, the point is made, and I'm back to fighting quickly. Though I like the difficulty increase in general, Yakety Sax is only fun once or twice...not on every Orc...err, zombie.

 

 

-Morloc

[RolandDT]

I find the rage mechanic an interesting challenge. Playing an Agility build focusing on Bows, I generally open with a (perk boosted) bow shot from stealth for the increased damage from a safe distance. I then monitor their behavior to see if they rage, and if not I close to melee, ducking in and weaving out briefly to entice them to take a swing from outside my range. When they miss, I dash in close with a wooden club power attack. If I knock them back, or knock them down, I move in for another power attack, then use normal attacks to regen stamina and finish them off. If they rage, I turn and run a safe distance until it wears off, before continuing my melee dance. Rinse, repeat. In enclosed areas (i.e. POIs), this is much more difficult to pull off, so I'm always very careful to not pull more than one at a time when I can, and always be aware of my surroundings. Raging zeds in an enclosed space with an Agility build can be deadly without proper preparation, so I'll use terrain to my advantage in order to reposition. It forces me to think on my feet and react to an ever-changing combat scenario, which makes everything feel much more intense.

[Hek Harris]

Rage mechanic is awesome AND killed me a lot of times. A survival game needs those sorts of mechanic. I'm pretty sure it won't be removed or changed. Now, let's discuss about it and make that topic very constructive.

[Morloc]

...let's discuss about it and make that topic very constructive.

 

Sure. Rage occurs seemingly with any damage. This includes zombie falling damage, traps, and even other zombies. You cannot completely avoid it by being a pacifist. The rage effect works to amplify all movement, so a stumbling lunge will be that much faster. Two of the female zombies (cheerleader and girl) will be particularly fast when raged.

 

The best survival advice I can offer (particularly at the higher difficulties) is to treat all zombies as ferals. They're not going to be raged ALL the time of course giving you a break, but when deciding to fight, or how much room you'll need, just presume the Z will be running faster than you can move backwards.

 

I can't confirm this, but has anyone noticed speed variations with rage? Like...slow and faster rage?

 

Knockdowns and power attacks are more than helpful, but running and whacking hard will tax your stamina (current and max).

 

Again, use the same tools & tactics on all zombies as you would have used on ferals+ prior to A18.

 

I'm guessing ferals can be enraged, but I haven't managed to kill many, so...

 

 

-Morloc

[Hek Harris]

Sure. Rage occurs seemingly with any damage. This includes zombie falling damage, traps, and even other zombies. You cannot completely avoid it by being a pacifist.

And I love that. You feel safe because you didn't hit them, but 3D is also your enemy.

I saw today a big mother rushing on me, and at the same time that I fled like the coward that I am, I said to myself: "Oh yes, she has just fallen from the floor, it is logical that she is so angry ... " Nobody appreciates to fall from the floor, I guess.

[aptalley]

Some of us prefer a more strategic, less frantic action on every encounter type gameplay. This game has never been realistically trying to clone action based games like dying light prior to A17/18, and I'm not sure why it is now.

 

It seems that I am in the minority though, unfortunately, as people seem to love it, (however, I don't understand how having to dance around nearly every zombie is not considered tedious to most) even with the rage mechanic, the game feels easier now than it ever has been.

 

I feel there has always been more focus on the adventure of exploring, killing off zombies fairly easily (as long as you are careful) with the big payout of the ultra difficult horde. Random ferals do keep combat interesting, but retain the strategic aspect, as you can plan when you see them. One lunging at you as you hit it randomly is not fun or immersive. It's a blinder so that you don't think about the fact that most of the time you will only see one enemy at a time if you are not in a POI.