Eliminate Attributes Entirely?

[OldManBrian]

What if we just got rid of the attributes (Strength, Agility, Fortitude, etc) and just had perks to buy?

 

Personally, I think it would greatly improve the perk system by not requiring you to put points into attributes in cases where you really only want one or two perks in the entire section.

 

On that same note, what about having varying point costs per perk based on how useful they are instead of just 1 point per perk? That or maybe boost the usefulness of some of the perks and maybe reduce the number of levels in them to make it more worthwhile for each level of investment. As right now there's definitely some perks that are way more useful in general than others.

 

Really, either way if attributes were removed you'd need to ramp up the costs for later perk levels anyway just to balance it properly.

[Jeraal]

I'm all for making the game less RPG-like. I cringed when I saw people, in other posts, say that they mained this or mained that. Wondering when the logo is going to change to "The Survival Horde Crafting RPG".

[Limdood]

I'm pretty sure that TFP is sticking with the attributes in order to group skills and create choices. By showing that choosing the skills in a given attribute will cost you the ability to take a different desirable skill, they add more weight to the decision.

 

You want to be an awesome miner and machine gunner? Sure no problem! But it doesn't look like you'll be wearing light armor in that case.

 

You're in a group and want to be the food gatherer? focusing on farming and hunting? No problem, but you'll probably be counting on the rest of your group for materials gathering and crafting.

 

One big problem with just picking whatever skill you want, at whatever level, without using grouping prerequisites is that the game breaks down into "X is best, only ever pick X." If the AK or M60 are the strongest weapons, why would I ever put points into pistols, shotguns, or rifles...unless I was already invested in Str, Agi, or Per, and it would cost me a ton more points to get those "best" weapon skills. If the sledge was the ideal melee weapon, who would ever take spears, knives, or fists if they all required exactly the same expenditure of points.

 

There is no way to "perfectly" balance every single item in the game against each other...and no real need to...so long as the devs make choosing between unequal choices meaningful.

 

As a side note, by separating into attributes, the devs have created "classes" more or less, and significantly upped the replayability of the game with that one move. By adjusting skills/attribute mixing to give each attribute a variety of unequal, but functional basic playstyle skills, they've enabled people who felt locked into specific builds in A17, to branch out and try whole new setups in A18...and they can KEEP trying new setups over and over, mixing and matching different primary and secondary attribute specializations, trying hyperspecializing, or playing generalist builds - all things that struggled in A17 outside of large multiplayer groups.

[Kalarro]

I'm all for making the game less RPG-like. I cringed when I saw people, in other posts, say that they mained this or mained that. Wondering when the logo is going to change to "The Survival Horde Crafting RPG".

 

I love RPGs and I still dont quite like the system

[SickPuppy]

What if we just got rid of the attributes (Strength, Agility, Fortitude, etc) and just had perks to buy?

 

Personally, I think it would greatly improve the perk system by not requiring you to put points into attributes in cases where you really only want one or two perks in the entire section.

 

On that same note, what about having varying point costs per perk based on how useful they are instead of just 1 point per perk? That or maybe boost the usefulness of some of the perks and maybe reduce the number of levels in them to make it more worthwhile for each level of investment. As right now there's definitely some perks that are way more useful in general than others.

 

Really, either way if attributes were removed you'd need to ramp up the costs for later perk levels anyway just to balance it properly.

 

Well that's how it was pre a17. All perks was open, you level up blade weapons for example 1 level at a time by using any bladed weapons, then when you reach a certain level you can spec into a specific blade type like knife or machete. It felt immersive because you're practicing that skill tree. But spam crafters ruined everything.

 

I don't think it's necessarily the attributes problem it's that they feel disconnected to the skills under their tree:

 

Perception = do more damage with rifles and spears, but I'm not using those weapons, just want to upgrade my lockpicking.

Strength = do more damage with shotguns and clubs, but I'm not using those weapons, I just want more pack mule

Attribute = do more damage with xxx, not using those weapons, I just want xxx,

etc

[Kalarro]

Perception = do more damage with rifles and spears, but I'm not using those weapons, just want to upgrade my lockpicking.

Strength = do more damage with shotguns and clubs, but I'm not using those weapons, I just want more pack mule

Attribute = do more damage with xxx, not using those weapons, I just want xxx,

etc

 

yep, it looks a bit like they start implementing the system and decide while they do that how it's going to be. Instead of sitting down a few days and talk on paper how they want it, and then implement it.

[Ghostlight]

Perception = do more damage with rifles and spears, but I'm not using those weapons, just want to upgrade my lockpicking.

Strength = do more damage with shotguns and clubs, but I'm not using those weapons, I just want more pack mule

Attribute = do more damage with xxx, not using those weapons, I just want xxx,

etc

 

Yup. Totally stupid system. Very limiting for the player. They really need to throw in the towel and admit they were wrong because this perk system is NOT fun to deal with. I wanted Living of the Land to 4 as I had to feed everyone yet I had no interest in anything else under Fortitude. The A18 system is absolutely horrible for player choice.

 

I love the idea of no attributes. Just price all Perks at an appropriate level and let us build our chars as we please. That would be liberating and in no way broken that I can see.

[ZombieSurvivor]

I don't think it's necessarily the attributes problem it's that they feel disconnected to the skills under their tree:

 

Perception = do more damage with rifles and spears, but I'm not using those weapons, just want to upgrade my lockpicking.

Strength = do more damage with shotguns and clubs, but I'm not using those weapons, I just want more pack mule

Attribute = do more damage with xxx, not using those weapons, I just want xxx,

etc

 

I agree 100%. I am not liking how this is laid out at all. half the perks i want to invest in I am first forced to waste points in one of the parent perks. Most of my skill points are wasted in crap I do not want to spend points on. This is honestly horrible and I hope it changes. If it does not, I'll end up modding the game because no way I can play like this forever.

[Viktoriusiii]

What if we just got rid of the attributes (Strength, Agility, Fortitude, etc) and just had perks to buy?

 

Personally, I think it would greatly improve the perk system by not requiring you to put points into attributes in cases where you really only want one or two perks in the entire section.

 

On that same note, what about having varying point costs per perk based on how useful they are instead of just 1 point per perk? That or maybe boost the usefulness of some of the perks and maybe reduce the number of levels in them to make it more worthwhile for each level of investment. As right now there's definitely some perks that are way more useful in general than others.

 

Really, either way if attributes were removed you'd need to ramp up the costs for later perk levels anyway just to balance it properly.

 

Yeah... not going to happen... sadly.

 

MM is a huge fallout fan and wanted this forever.

That he even went back and removed levelgates is a huge improvement.

 

These attributes do not contribute to anything. It only limits you. But that is what they want.

They want you to play like 40 hours and then start a new "build".

That is their opinion on how to have fun... so there is nothing we can do.

 

I don't get why I have to use knives and pistols or close combat and shotguns or...

Why cant I be great at close combat and bows?

 

But as I said... Fallout did this... so there is not much we can do. MM can be very stubborn this way.

[Hollowprime]

I also think the status system is bad. There is no synergy whatsoever with a lot of perks. If anything we would need more status trees.

 

Also one thing that really bothers me is leveling feels even slower than A17. In A17 I could farm zombies and iron blocks, now I kill zombies non stop ,I build multiple floors of bases and I'm still a third of the levels I used to be. Playing on 300% experience gain seems mandatory now it's ridiculous.

[Limdood]

They don't want you to be able to do EVERYTHING every time you play. The fact that people agonize over not being able to grab "that one awesome skill I really want in that other attribute" means the system is working. You can play fallout 4 and use console commands to give yourself every attribute and perk...but it trivializes the game when you can do EVERYTHING well.

 

Perception = do more damage with rifles and spears, but I'm not using those weapons, just want to upgrade my lockpicking.

then bash open the locks

Strength = do more damage with shotguns and clubs, but I'm not using those weapons, I just want more pack mule

then craft the pocket mods or manage your inventory

Attribute = do more damage with xxx, not using those weapons, I just want xxx,

etc

Then find another way, within the build you ARE focusing on, to do the thing.

 

It's "can't have it all" at it's most basic. you can either do the thing fast, or you can do it well. The devs have done a great job of giving players SOME sort of alternate option for nearly every single skill bonus in the game.

 

Want weapons to be strong? a high level weapon with decent mods will be strong no matter your skills.

Want to be exceptional at it? spec heavily into it - at the cost of taking other things.

 

Want to carry a lot? options exist in multiple places

Want to be protected? options exist in multiple places

Want to get through locks? options exist in multiple places

want to fight at range? options exist in multiple places

want to fight in melee? options exist in multiple places

want to craft? options exist in multiple places

want to mine? options exist in multiple places

 

Want to do everything? you can already

Want to do everything amazingly well just as fast as people who focus on the one thing? too bad.

[SickPuppy]

You're missing the whole point, nobody here has stated once they want to level up ALL skills so we can do EVERYTHING super well.

 

No, we want all perks 'accessible' from the start so we can mix n match freely. I'd be fine if all perks were accessible but we could only focus on 5 perks throughout the entire playthrough. 5 is not leveling all skills, but that's the character I've 'freely' built from the start. And then in my next game I might choose 5 different skills depending on how I feel I want to play and with what weapons.

 

Currently skills are locked under these attribute gates that have no purpose to our character with locked weapons, it feels like a waste of time leveling to put points into attributes that doesn't affect our character. That's all it is, no overpowering here just freedom of choice.

[Onarr]

I agree. The atributes made sense in alpha 17, because every atribute was unique. In atempt to balance all trees the uniqueness disappeared. The builds also feel incredebly off. For example stealth build is the best for questing, especially lvl 5 dungeons. However, you dont get perks for quests, because they are in intelect tree. If you want to be a builder, it clashes between strength and inteligence. On one hand you need recipes, but because you can find them in the world, the perks are not that worthy as increased resource yield, which is the real bottleneck in late game base building. Perception perks like lockpicking and infiltrator go much better into stealth tree. There is more. Iam all for different builds related to gameplay, but in this iteration it does not work well.

[Scyris]

Get the darkness falls mod, currently it has a stable ver for 17.4, and the mod creator is working on a a18 version already. It has no stats, weapon use and weapon based perks are based on action skills that you raise by using the weapon, or mining tools, or armor etc. It also has a class system with the player being able to scrap skill books they don't need for skill notes, that they can use to craft other class books, or even into a book that grants a generic skill point you can use on anything. In the end the player can get all classes, it also has 2 more tiers of gear, coil guns, then sci-fi laser stuff. and Titanium tools/weapons/armor as well. Also has triple the spawn rate of vanilla a17, and has a ton of new zombies with special abilitys etc.

 

Its honestly what I feel the game should be. I pretty much droped vanilla a17 once I found the mod because it was just a far better experence than how limited a17 vanilla was. Will probally do the same once it drops for A18.

[Scyris]

I agree. The atributes made sense in alpha 17, because every atribute was unique. In atempt to balance all trees the uniqueness disappeared. The builds also feel incredebly off. For example stealth build is the best for questing, especially lvl 5 dungeons. However, you dont get perks for quests, because they are in intelect tree. If you want to be a builder, it clashes between strength and inteligence. On one hand you need recipes, but because you can find them in the world, the perks are not that worthy as increased resource yield, which is the real bottleneck in late game base building. Perception perks like lockpicking and infiltrator go much better into stealth tree. There is more. Iam all for different builds related to gameplay, but in this iteration it does not work well.

 

Well for the lock picking skill, all you really need is the first level, then you can make as many lockpicks as you want, its why I consider it one of the most OP perks in the game as it makes getting into safes and such a complete joke. I never get it in my game, as I feel its too OP, I will however use lockpicks I have looted only. Or if I complete the book series that lets me craft them, then i'll craft em. IMO the ability to craft them should be removed from the perk and make it book locked. Besides once you get a tier 1 steel pickaxe and lv 3 miner 69'er (2 str+cigar can get you that) You can bust into 5-7k items pretty fast.

[Xtrakicking]

To be honest, there's not much difference between having no attributes but perks cost 4 points, and perks that cost 3 points plus the additional attribute point you need to spend (which is the way it is now).

 

In the end, the attributes thing is just to reduce the pace in which players gain their perk abilities so that they don't become too OP so early in the game. That's literally all it is, a way to make sure players take longer to progress and buy their abilities, because they're all very powerful.

 

If they were to remove attributes, then the overall costs of each level in every ability would have to increase, else players would become too strong early on, so the end result is kind of the same.

 

Sure, they could just remove attributes and not increase the skillpoints costs, but then the game would become too easy very early on.

 

Personally, the only thing I'm not ok with is the way they mixed the whole weapons aspect of the game and the skill trees. I hate the fact that, in order to be able to have rifles that aren't level 1 I need to either be lucky and find them or waste my points in their governing perk, even if I have their schematics. But that's a whole different debate.

[Viktoriusiii]

They don't want you to be able to do EVERYTHING every time you play. The fact that people agonize over not being able to grab "that one awesome skill I really want in that other attribute" means the system is working. You can play fallout 4 and use console commands to give yourself every attribute and perk...but it trivializes the game when you can do EVERYTHING well.

 

then bash open the locks

then craft the pocket mods or manage your inventory

Then find another way, within the build you ARE focusing on, to do the thing.

 

It's "can't have it all" at it's most basic. you can either do the thing fast, or you can do it well. The devs have done a great job of giving players SOME sort of alternate option for nearly every single skill bonus in the game.

 

Want weapons to be strong? a high level weapon with decent mods will be strong no matter your skills.

Want to be exceptional at it? spec heavily into it - at the cost of taking other things.

 

Want to carry a lot? options exist in multiple places

Want to be protected? options exist in multiple places

Want to get through locks? options exist in multiple places

want to fight at range? options exist in multiple places

want to fight in melee? options exist in multiple places

want to craft? options exist in multiple places

want to mine? options exist in multiple places

 

Want to do everything? you can already

Want to do everything amazingly well just as fast as people who focus on the one thing? too bad.

 

There are two things you need to take into account:

 

1. fallout has a story. So there is more to the game then fighting. There is npc interactions, quests, and so much more.

7D2D only has looting and shooting and building.

 

2. fallout doesnt tell you you can only use shotguns or only use snipers.

This game has a sandbox world where we are limited my perks. Its like the perfect definition of antidesign.

It goes against what the core design is meant to achieve, aka giving the player freedom of choice.

[Scyris]

There are two things you need to take into account:

 

1. fallout has a story. So there is more to the game then fighting. There is npc interactions, quests, and so much more.

7D2D only has looting and shooting and building.

 

2. fallout doesnt tell you you can only use shotguns or only use snipers.

This game has a sandbox world where we are limited my perks. Its like the perfect definition of antidesign.

It goes against what the core design is meant to achieve, aka giving the player freedom of choice.

 

A high tier modded weapom is going to be useful no matter what, I'm a str/fort build and I got a tier 4 pistol with 2 mods in it that does 51 dmg, my t5 ak47 with 2 mods does 64. Yeah the ak does more headshot damage and such due to perks, but with how common 9mm ammo is, I use the pistol more than the ak as the ammo is just much cheaper and it gets the job done. IMO, the 7.62 mm ammo needs to be reduced to 2 gunpowder, same for the magnum.

[Kattla]

A high tier modded weapom is going to be useful no matter what, I'm a str/fort build and I got a tier 4 pistol with 2 mods in it that does 51 dmg, my t5 ak47 with 2 mods does 64. Yeah the ak does more headshot damage and such due to perks, but with how common 9mm ammo is, I use the pistol more than the ak as the ammo is just much cheaper and it gets the job done. IMO, the 7.62 mm ammo needs to be reduced to 2 gunpowder, same for the magnum.

 

So many numbers and abbreviations.

[CatsArtist]

I am very much into the RP side of 7DtD. Even Joel has commented on the RP aspect of it. It's right in the mission statement:

 

"With over 3 million copies sold on PC (digital download), 7 Days to Die has redefined the survival genre, with unrivaled crafting and world-building content. Set in a brutally unforgiving post-apocalyptic world overrun by the undead, 7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games. It presents combat, crafting, looting, mining, exploration, and character growth, in a way that has seen a rapturous response from fans worldwide. Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. Navezgane awaits!"

 

It always has been a hybrid-genre crafting, horde, survival, role-playing game. You're still responsible for playing a person in a story. The big thing to remember is we've been able to enjoy the game 'before' it has been born. It won't always be story-lite. There is no such thing as a person being a 'master-of-all-trades.' The mark of a truly great game is having multiple paths to accomplishing the same goal, not being forced into cookie-cutter molds or being forced to play like everyone else.

[CatsArtist]

One of the big issues we are confronted with is that Attributes represent talent, not skill. With everyone waking up being 'abysmal' in every attribute, it's as if we're waking from a coma and relearning who we once were.

 

The only other option would be to establish attributes at Level 1. Where as this would be more realistic, it would affect the progress curve TFPs intend for beginning, middle, and end game. It is very important someone cannot learn to do everything by the end of their career (level-cap).

[jdm311]

To be honest, there's not much difference between having no attributes but perks cost 4 points, and perks that cost 3 points plus the additional attribute point you need to spend (which is the way it is now).

 

This is a very good point. At least spending points on attributes gives you something. Increasing the cost for perks does not. If you are looking to max a perk that requires 10 of a particular attribute, you are spending 17 points (5 x 1 + 3 x 2 + 2 x 3) IIRC. If you re-work the perks so no attributes gate perks and have each tier of a perk requires 1 more point than the last, you are spending 15 points (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5). It's 2 less points spent, but no additional benefits like you would get for buying attributes. Although this could be re-worked to give the attribute benefits as you perk up. Maybe if you bought 5th rank of a perk, you would get an attribute level up for that category. Sounds more complicated than the current design, so I'm not sure it buys much.

[Ghostlight]

Personally, the only thing I'm not ok with is the way they mixed the whole weapons aspect of the game and the skill trees. I hate the fact that, in order to be able to have rifles that aren't level 1 I need to either be lucky and find them or waste my points in their governing perk, even if I have their schematics. But that's a whole different debate.

 

Sounds like the same debate to me.

[Limdood]

To be honest, there's not much difference between having no attributes but perks cost 4 points, and perks that cost 3 points plus the additional attribute point you need to spend (which is the way it is now).

 

There is a very notable difference, which was touched upon in the initial patch notes for A18. The devs are setting this game up for all BUILDS to be viable. Meaning that they're EXPECTING people to choose skills along certain attribute paths.

 

If I want to do farming and grab several levels of healing factor, the value of fists and machine guns stays the same, but the COST goes down. It becomes cheaper for me to get skills bundled into the same category. Something that would absolutely not exist if all skills were freestanding and bought with increased points.

 

Additionally, if all skills were able to be bought with no prerequisites, who would take fist weapon skills? who would take knives? pistols? shotguns? Those items are categorically less powerful and efficient as, say, sledges and machine guns. Yeah, we USE them as a matter of convenience, but spending our points in them would likely be ignored.

 

Attribute grouping allows the relative value of skills to change throughout the course of the game and each individual character's progression. It makes weapons we wouldn't normally specialize in more ideal because, depending on build, those skills are significantly cheaper than other skills

[Ghostlight]

If you are looking to max a perk that requires 10 of a particular attribute, you are spending 17 points (5 x 1 + 3 x 2 + 2 x 3)

 

Plus 5 for the Perk itself = 22.