My base didn't hold, why zombies exist, and other thoughts:

[Nucleus24]

I originally posted this to reddit (https://old.reddit.com/r/7daystodie/comments/d93up4/my_base_didnt_hold_why_zombies_exist_and_other/), but it started a lot of good conversations so I would also like to post it here:

 

I've been playing a bit, and my recent base that I built didn't survive the day 14 horde on standard difficulty navesgame.

 

I decided to build a pillbox/like bunker using salvaged cement mix from some nearby POIs. It took awhile, and I had some suspicions about how well it would work, but I wanted to give it a go anyways. My walls were 2 blocks thick, with flagstone blocks for the knee level and reinforced cement for the shoulder level. I had some "murderholes" that I could use to shoot down at zombies. I also used some spikes to slow them down before they got to the walls.

 

It held out ok, but at around 1:45 they tore through the second layer of my walls and swarmed in. There weren't even that many zombies at a time (standard settings), but the damage added up.

 

It kind of made me think about the intended behavior here, and how zombies are represented in the game.

 

To me, the "survival challenge" includes things like managing health/stamina, resources, and infrastructure while you explore and build. Exploring the (very well done IMO) POIs and crafting things is it's own reward, and people don't really need motivation to do it. In this sense, zombies are more of a source of risk and attrition. They aren't very dangerous as long as you are careful, but they slow you down, drain your resources, and punish you if you get sloppy or over extend. The board game "Dead of Winter" captures this perfectly, where you roll one die for "exposure", that is both random wandering zombies and the harsh elements.

 

There is a separate challenge, which I will call the "combat challenge". This is what you get when playing Killing Floor 2. Fast paced, varied enemies, a variety of weapons and tools, etc. Sprinting zombies that jump/shoot goop at you seem to be this type of challenge. Some people really like this type of challenge, others don't.

 

I've heard previously that just burying yourself a few blocks deep or hiding in a bedrock cave would be enough to completely avoid the 7 day horde. It seems that the smart-but-really-not zombies, turbo digging behavior, and the insane block damage are methods to prevent this type of combat challenge avoidance. I'm not sure this is a good idea. I think that if people want to spend resources to avoid the combat challenge they should be able to. Currently, it's easy if you make a gamey tower-defense like zombie grinder. The "demolisher" zombie also seems to be another attempt to force a combat challenge by blowing up the previous "killing corridors". I suspect next people will just get on a minibike and ride all night. The methods to force a combat challenge have just made it so that you have to use really unfortunate and gamey methods to avoid it, and make things that should work (like a bunker) just a waste of resources and time.

 

If you want to bury yourself alive in a small coffin to avoid the seventh day...I don't see that as a problem. The same with hiding inside a concrete bunker. Staying indoors is boring, and being forced to do that is interesting and, in my opinion, plenty punishment enough. It really enforces the sense of danger and opression when you have to spend 30 minutes hiding in your bunker to avoid being swarmed.

 

I think that it would be better if the developers transitioned from a "how can we force players to face the combat challenges" to a "how can we reward players from facing the combat challenges" method.

 

What do you think?

[Khulkhuum]

There were many discussions about how to build a base, so i won't delve much into it. From my experience, i had tried various ideas in A15 to A17, some better, some worse. So you either hit or miss with an idea. Been there, done that.

 

There are many people who don't ride into the sunset on horde night, not everyone does it. Nights became more challenging to some extent, but also easier to other. HN especially, but if you had lousy ideas, bad aim, had too little ammo or generally was not prepared, it's all on you. You can't excuse wasting ammo, not putting up traps, not using proper weapons or not having meds on your tool bar.

 

Considering reward over penalty, there was a big discussion about it in the past. I agree that you shouldn't be simply rewarded for taking part in a mandatory mechanic for survival. You have plenty of rewards for everything, not to mention the excess in xp and some rewards. Giving more would be over the top.

[Laz Man]

I dont have it quoted verbatim but MM mentioned in the dev diary recently that the 7 day horde mechanic is a core function of the game and living underground invalidated it too easily. Digging was a method to address that and was actually part of the game before but was previously removed.

 

I think they make take another look at this again later but it wont before finishing some other big ticket features like bandits. Best option right now is to reconfigure your horde settings in the menu.

 

Edit: Here is a list of things mentioned on the 1st post of the dev diary that may answer a few questions.

 

Things People Wonder and Worry About

+ No change to the quest marker in A18

+ No Boats in A18

+ No level cap for A18

+ No Blood Moon escape prevention in A18

 

+ No Behemoth or Ziplines (cut features)

+ No Learn by Doing (cut feature)

 

+ No Child Zombies planned

+ No killable trader planned

+ No static terrain planned

[Khulkhuum]

I think i even remember a mention about the digging zombies being enhanced in a manner that they will more fluently turn towards an underground player or something. Don't know really what it entails exactly, but i presume that Zs will have better algorithms to be directed towards digging or not.

[Nucleus24]

There were many discussions about how to build a base, so i won't delve much into it. From my experience, i had tried various ideas in A15 to A17, some better, some worse. So you either hit or miss with an idea. Been there, done that.

 

There are many people who don't ride into the sunset on horde night, not everyone does it. Nights became more challenging to some extent, but also easier to other. HN especially, but if you had lousy ideas, bad aim, had too little ammo or generally was not prepared, it's all on you. You can't excuse wasting ammo, not putting up traps, not using proper weapons or not having meds on your tool bar.

 

Considering reward over penalty, there was a big discussion about it in the past. I agree that you shouldn't be simply rewarded for taking part in a mandatory mechanic for survival. You have plenty of rewards for everything, not to mention the excess in xp and some rewards. Giving more would be over the top.

 

You might just be much better at the game than me, but I find horde nights ...confusing.

 

Zombies seem both smart and stupid, being able to zero in on your location, yet stupid enough to fall though a "false" floor over and over again. They smash though walls like a wrecking ball, dig tunnels faster than a...whatever digs tunnels that fast, yet they are defeated by some strange path-finding tricks that make the whole experience seem artificial and strange.

 

It's also much harder for newer people, who aren't very familiar with he game mechanics, and expect the zombies to act like pop culture zombies and not...whatever it is they act like now.

 

I feel like the current system is lacking.

[Kattla]

If you want to bury yourself alive in a small coffin to avoid the seventh day...I don't see that as a problem. The same with hiding inside a concrete bunker. Staying indoors is boring, and being forced to do that is interesting and, in my opinion, plenty punishment enough. It really enforces the sense of danger and opression when you have to spend 30 minutes hiding in your bunker to avoid being swarmed.

 

I think that it would be better if the developers transitioned from a "how can we force players to face the combat challenges" to a "how can we reward players from facing the combat challenges" method.

 

What do you think?

 

I think too much and don't act enough.

I am not against diggers per say, but their sensing range is WAY off. 6 - 12 blocks should be max, even on blood moons.

As for "forcing the the players to face the combat challenges", i agree, and think nothing good will come out of it.

 

The reasons are simple. Those who want to do the combat challenges will do so, and those who do not will look for ways to avoid it. And the game are not getting better by adding more and more limitations.

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

To me, the "survival challenge" includes things like managing health/stamina, resources, and infrastructure while you explore and build. Exploring the (very well done IMO) POIs and crafting things is it's own reward, and people don't really need motivation to do it. In this sense, zombies are more of a source of risk and attrition. They aren't very dangerous as long as you are careful, but they slow you down, drain your resources, and punish you if you get sloppy or over extend. The board game "Dead of Winter" captures this perfectly, where you roll one die for "exposure", that is both random wandering zombies and the harsh elements.

 

There is a separate challenge, which I will call the "combat challenge". This is what you get when playing Killing Floor 2. Fast paced, varied enemies, a variety of weapons and tools, etc. Sprinting zombies that jump/shoot goop at you seem to be this type of challenge. Some people really like this type of challenge, others don't.

 

My friends and I are fans of the former (we even play the Dead of Winter board game!) but not of the latter.

 

It's not that we can't fight off the blood moon hordes - it's just that we don't find it enjoyable. Fighting them off is a chore and rebuilding/repairing afterwards is worse (especially if it forces you to spend half your nights mining - a completely pointless and anti-fun activity as far as we are concerned).

 

So we just switch the Blood Moon frequency to never in the options and play without Blood Moons.

 

Obviously it's not for everyone, but for us it vastly improves the game. We get all the "type 1" survival and none of the "type 2" survival.

[Ti2xGr]

Different playstyles for different folk -

 

I see some youtubers all doing "the ramp" method which takes advantage of their known pathing.

 

Personally, I just build a base for looks and see how it holds up. If it gets mangled, so be it. I learned something and find the struggle "fun".

 

The digging zombie thing definitely needs some tweaks in my opinion. I don't mind "digging", but I have found tunnels digging to my above ground base from almost a third of a kilometer away (no joke). If my base is above ground, I'd appreciate it if they wouldn't chew holes through the surrounding area. I don't consider that a feature. I consider it a flaw. I suspect it will be adjusted in A18, or at least hope so.

 

We've done numerous tweaks to get the game to play how "we want". We've upped the amount of zombies you'll find wandering around. We have nerfed the zombie's ability to break through our blocks...just a bit. We've bumped up the player's ability to break blocks...just a bit, to make it a bit less "grindy". We have stretched the Bloodmoon from 7 days to 10 days with a 3 day swing so you don't know when it will come, but gives a bit more time to loot/explore in between horde nights.

 

My hope is they will have the same zombie with "different personalities". Some dumb as rocks that just plow toward my base and some that will try and path around things to get me. That will give enough variety to make it a challenge and feel more "natural" in play.

 

If you don't like the way something feels, don't be afraid to poke around through the XML's. They are quite clear in regards to the settings and you can determine their effects quite easily. We're constantly tweaking them to get just the right feel. We even tweak them "mid-game" to balance out the amount of ferals, etc. as late game gets a bit ridiculous. We tweak the amount of ammo that can be found and how much the traders will sell us. Not everyone likes to auger for hours and giving players the choice to purchase it instead is more fun for some of our users.

[ZombieSurvivor]

Last I checked this is a zombie game not a building simulator. I do not agree with anything the original poster said. just sayin'.

[meganoth]

As Nice Cup said, if you really don't like the blood moon challenge, turn it off.

 

If not, don't despair if you fail sometimes and look at it as a challenge. "Exploiting" the zombies is not neccessary.

 

In the case of the pillbox: Without pictures hard to judge where you made a mistake. But you need a way to attack zombies from all sides in a pillbox and that isn't that easy. Hint: concrete poles (best turned to be flat instead of upright) have the same hitpoints as full blocks and allow to shoot and even melee through

 

Did you have a way up on top of the pillbox and a way to shoot down of them when they breached the walls? They might get inside, sure, but to really collapse the whole pillbox to get to you on top they would need to destroy all walls around.

 

Did you have lots of spike traps? One small detail the game doesn't hint enough about is that spike traps are more like solid blocks, i.e. they work best when they are flush with the ground. You don't need to dig for that, you can alternatively add ramps around the traps so the zombies can easily ascend to one block higher. An example of this can be seen here: [ATTACH=CONFIG]29200[/ATTACH] , although in this picture too much space was wasted on blocks instead of traps and the blocks don't need to be concrete, they can even be wood.

 

And it is always nice to have a plan B when your first idea doesn't work out. For example a nearby poi you reinforced a bit and removed all access to upper floors.

[Drunkwolf]

This is what I do when building my base.

 

I dont build the base to survive the horde.

 

I build the base to Kill the horde.

 

and that changes my base design drastically.

 

create choke points and kill zones, sometimes i funnel them into a area just so i can lob pipe bombs in there and kill a bunch at once. Zombies normally go for doors so use that to your advantage. and allways have a escape plan, could be a tunnel out of there, or tunnel to another spot near by that you can shoot from to draw them away from base. use your imagination thats what makes this game so special. you can do anything

[ZombieSurvivor]

^ what he said. The original poster just sucks at base design thats all.

[grieferbastard]

I'm not sure telling someone they 'suck at base design' is the best answer to the issue though. Part of the point is that building a zombie proof base should be nearly impossible - however building a zombie-resistant base should be reasonably simple.

 

The issue right now is that there is no real zombie-resistant base design. You either do something sorta cheesy to outwit the AI or you have a base that dissolves in moments. There's not a lot of middle ground. If I can't build a base on day 7 that'll give me a running shot at fighting the horde that night unless I've power-leveled or know exactly where and how to collect the right traps and have a specific design around dealing with the peculiar zombie AI and its engineering master cunning on where and how to approach then the system doesn't work right.

 

Fortunately it really sounds like that's been addressed in the next release, so we're good.

 

While I love the tougher challenge and am happy with the brutal and murderous POI designs and don't mind the current 7 day hordes I admit - it's not as fun as it could be/should be. The idea of fortifying a house to withstand a zombie horde is part of the genre. Having bigger and badder fortifications and firepower as time goes on. You certainly can build a base around exploiting the AI but it's just not the same. I don't want to be safe because I've designed a pathfinding issue for the AIs attempt to perfectly track to the path of least resistance. I want to be safe because I've played against, well, what zombies should be. Relentless but stupid and numerous. Strong, but not shredding concrete and steel walls literally in seconds. 2 blocks of steel and concrete should be resistant to all but the most monstrous of enemies, instead I should be worried about climbing or just piling bodies to get over, etc.

 

Again though, no point worrying on a chewed bone. It sounds like the next release is bringing some changes and I'm excited for them.

[Nucleus24]

^ what he said. The original poster just sucks at base design thats all.

 

Building a 7-day-horde-proof killing corridor is easy to do. The Zombie AI is easy to abuse, but the result feels gamey and lame. Currently you ether become immune to hordes by abusing the AI or you get your base demolished by super strength cement smashing zombies. You can get funky with barbed wire and electric fences to buy you time, but a solid reinforced cement wall should buy you some time itself, and currently it hardly slows them down.

 

I'm not sure telling someone they 'suck at base design' is the best answer to the issue though. Part of the point is that building a zombie proof base should be nearly impossible - however building a zombie-resistant base should be reasonably simple.

 

The issue right now is that there is no real zombie-resistant base design. You either do something sorta cheesy to outwit the AI or you have a base that dissolves in moments. There's not a lot of middle ground. If I can't build a base on day 7 that'll give me a running shot at fighting the horde that night unless I've power-leveled or know exactly where and how to collect the right traps and have a specific design around dealing with the peculiar zombie AI and its engineering master cunning on where and how to approach then the system doesn't work right.

 

Fortunately it really sounds like that's been addressed in the next release, so we're good.

 

While I love the tougher challenge and am happy with the brutal and murderous POI designs and don't mind the current 7 day hordes I admit - it's not as fun as it could be/should be. The idea of fortifying a house to withstand a zombie horde is part of the genre. Having bigger and badder fortifications and firepower as time goes on. You certainly can build a base around exploiting the AI but it's just not the same. I don't want to be safe because I've designed a pathfinding issue for the AIs attempt to perfectly track to the path of least resistance. I want to be safe because I've played against, well, what zombies should be. Relentless but stupid and numerous. Strong, but not shredding concrete and steel walls literally in seconds. 2 blocks of steel and concrete should be resistant to all but the most monstrous of enemies, instead I should be worried about climbing or just piling bodies to get over, etc.

 

Again though, no point worrying on a chewed bone. It sounds like the next release is bringing some changes and I'm excited for them.

 

I fully agree with everything you've said.

[eXSe]

Well, everyone enjoys something different in this game. I, for one, love building pretty, economic (just enough space to have all the thingies I need around) and safe (obviously) bases. Because I love them, I hate seeing those pesky Zeds pound on my stilts//walls and hate tidying up after them, therefore I cheese them to stop them making a horrible mess

 

BTW, I loved doing the same in A16, but because they were more braindead than now, I had to be more proactive with my defenses and try to improve on them, so that Zeds do as little damage as possible... and I liked that challenge.

 

As you can see, I have no beef with the weekly horde because I will always try to outwit them, but when it's this easy, I kinda lose interest too quickly.

 

POI's I do have a beef with. Not ALL of them should be dungeons with zombies spawning in as you meander through them.

 

On the other hand, non zombie survival part of the game seems neglected to me. Food, water, elements, they can be a challenge for the first few days, but then it seems to fade away and be replaced by "screw this food, I need the space for guns and ammo". Again I revert to A16 and say that this part of the game was, for me at least, better with the Wellness system (not so much with clothes though, because you had to switch them out too often). Eating right meant more health and "exercise" meant more stamina. Perfectly logical and fine by me

 

And the last thing, controversial as it might be and not mentioned at all , learning by doing. Not for everyone, I know, because it forces you to do stuff you might not want to do and it might wreak havoc with those OCD completionists, but I come at this from a logic and immersion standpoint, not a gameplay one. It was just better for me and I miss it

[HungryZombie]

I originally posted this to reddit (https://old.reddit.com/r/7daystodie/comments/d93up4/my_base_didnt_hold_why_zombies_exist_and_other/), but it started a lot of good conversations so I would also like to post it here:

 

I've been playing a bit, and my recent base that I built didn't survive the day 14 horde on standard difficulty navesgame.

 

I decided to build a pillbox/like bunker using salvaged cement mix from some nearby POIs. It took awhile, and I had some suspicions about how well it would work, but I wanted to give it a go anyways. My walls were 2 blocks thick, with flagstone blocks for the knee level and reinforced cement for the shoulder level. I had some "murderholes" that I could use to shoot down at zombies. I also used some spikes to slow them down before they got to the walls.

 

It held out ok, but at around 1:45 they tore through the second layer of my walls and swarmed in. There weren't even that many zombies at a time (standard settings), but the damage added up.

 

It kind of made me think about the intended behavior here, and how zombies are represented in the game.

 

To me, the "survival challenge" includes things like managing health/stamina, resources, and infrastructure while you explore and build. Exploring the (very well done IMO) POIs and crafting things is it's own reward, and people don't really need motivation to do it. In this sense, zombies are more of a source of risk and attrition. They aren't very dangerous as long as you are careful, but they slow you down, drain your resources, and punish you if you get sloppy or over extend. The board game "Dead of Winter" captures this perfectly, where you roll one die for "exposure", that is both random wandering zombies and the harsh elements.

 

There is a separate challenge, which I will call the "combat challenge". This is what you get when playing Killing Floor 2. Fast paced, varied enemies, a variety of weapons and tools, etc. Sprinting zombies that jump/shoot goop at you seem to be this type of challenge. Some people really like this type of challenge, others don't.

 

I've heard previously that just burying yourself a few blocks deep or hiding in a bedrock cave would be enough to completely avoid the 7 day horde. It seems that the smart-but-really-not zombies, turbo digging behavior, and the insane block damage are methods to prevent this type of combat challenge avoidance. I'm not sure this is a good idea. I think that if people want to spend resources to avoid the combat challenge they should be able to. Currently, it's easy if you make a gamey tower-defense like zombie grinder. The "demolisher" zombie also seems to be another attempt to force a combat challenge by blowing up the previous "killing corridors". I suspect next people will just get on a minibike and ride all night. The methods to force a combat challenge have just made it so that you have to use really unfortunate and gamey methods to avoid it, and make things that should work (like a bunker) just a waste of resources and time.

 

If you want to bury yourself alive in a small coffin to avoid the seventh day...I don't see that as a problem. The same with hiding inside a concrete bunker. Staying indoors is boring, and being forced to do that is interesting and, in my opinion, plenty punishment enough. It really enforces the sense of danger and opression when you have to spend 30 minutes hiding in your bunker to avoid being swarmed.

 

I think that it would be better if the developers transitioned from a "how can we force players to face the combat challenges" to a "how can we reward players from facing the combat challenges" method.

 

What do you think?

 

Most people will just turn the horde night off instead of riding a mini bike all night i think. I know I would. If on a server then you can just log out for horde night.

 

I'm not sure what other options are really needed.

[AtomicUs5000]

If you want to bury yourself alive in a small coffin to avoid the seventh day...I don't see that as a problem

I do. Imagine building this game and having this idea of adding a tower defense mechanic. You and your team spend months of time planning everything and bringing it to life through code. You are thinking that this is awesome... what a great idea... tower defense in a fully destructible world. Imagine all the fun, all the creativity, all the possible structures players will come up with to face this. Months of work, thousands of person-hours paid out to the staff, all the excitement and anticipation thrown away in less than a minute's time as someone digs 3 blocks down and places a frame on their head.

 

They smash though walls like a wrecking ball, dig tunnels faster than a...whatever digs tunnels that fast, yet they are defeated by some strange path-finding tricks that make the whole experience seem artificial and strange.

 

You have presented two things here, but you are suggesting that since A is an issue, and since B is an issue, we must fix A. The better resolution is to fix B. A18 makes strides to fixing B.

Issue A is greatly exaggerated here (perhaps to convince that A is the real problem). Madmole has posted like 5 A18 horde night videos recently. He's not bad, but I wouldn't call him an expert at playing the game either. You don't see any of his bases getting demolished. Only two things get in your way... either a really bad design that you failed to improve upon for the next horde after seeing it function on the previous one, or simply having failed to prepare yourself for the feature that you decided to participate in by not turning it off.

 

Zombies do not dig that quickly. I think it was Capp00 who made a video setting himself near bedrock and waited for a horde to dig through. The entire night passed and they didn't even reach him yet. Unless you are sitting still in your underground base during a horde night (that you opted to play via the settings) twiddling your thumbs for over an hour, or if you let this happen previously and did not patch up previous tunnels, you are safe.

 

I think too much and don't act enough.

I am not against diggers per say, but their sensing range is WAY off. 6 - 12 blocks should be max, even on blood moons.

As for "forcing the the players to face the combat challenges", i agree, and think nothing good will come out of it.

 

The blood moon event = zombies can detect you anywhere. This was the intended mechanic although you can still bypass it by hanging out at bedrock under a mountain.

 

So we just switch the Blood Moon frequency to never in the options and play without Blood Moons.

 

I've said before that they should just remove the ability to turn it off, because a lot of the people who won't face the fact that cheesing horde night is not intended for the feature, refuse to use it. However, after I said that, I started thinking about the 2 people in these forums who do turn it off (namely, you as one of them) and are perfectly fine about doing so... and so it really should stay. That statement came out of being just completely annoyed with the lack of reasoning. It really is that simple. If you don't want some impending doom event... turn it off and be thankful that this game even allows it for such a core mechanic that literally gives the game its name.

[Khulkhuum]

From one standpoint, it's good to have variety of things to modify, because having freedom to play however you want is good.

 

From the other perspective, it's not so good to have a big number of variables to set up for a game before playing. Firstly, some players could get overwhelmed with all of this. Secondly, it bestows upon players a false sense of disregard for some features (which sometimes are core for a game), because if i don't like X, i can disable it. Perhaps X is crucial for attaining a better understanding of the game, as well as enhanced gameplay and game mastery.

 

Everyone is different and allowing for such a variety lets bigger amounts of players enjoy the game (even those not strictly liking this or that genre). Here we have players that don't like HN and those that love it, those that don't enjoy grinding and those that max out their skills, those that hate mining and those that live on it, those that hate dungeon POIs and those that go through them according to the designed route every single time.

 

Who we are to judge? Before A17 it was mostly free for all, but putting up certain "rules and restrictions" narrowed down what kind of players would be interested in the game (to some extent). Imagine if we only had 2 or 3 options to choose from when starting a game, only the most persistent would play it. That's where the game is going i think, narrowing down just a tad bit towards how TFP wants the game to look. Surely some of the players will stray away, but surely many others will come in and bathe in the experience it will bring.

[Roland]

I’m glad they finally had this conversation on Reddit. This is like the 100th iteration of it here over the years....

[Gamida]

I'm not sure telling someone they 'suck at base design' is the best answer to the issue though.

 

I agree with this. Saying the OP sucks at base design without even seeing it seems a bit judgemental. Even if pics were shown, saying that still seems a bit hateful and doesn't help the OP in anyway at all.

 

I, for instance, know I suck at base design, someone telling me that (and only that) does me no good at all. Better to try and explain what you think the problem is with what I have done so I can hopefully learn.