A deep appreciation that the pimps aren't afraid to scrap and rebuild a game system

[Data]

I hope there’s going to be a lot more randomness for the zombies soon

 

Eg

 

Goto a building/house, you just know where they are going to be/spawn so it’s easy to plan your entry and exit

 

Streets are empty, hardly any roaming, just the odd walking about

 

Might get a couple of dogs now and then

 

I used to love the old Perishton you would know that when you went there, they would be coming for you, you would have to always check your back

 

Now at the moment the worlds just seems emptyish

[Guppycur]

Original World of Warcraft was a little over 4 years from start to release in Nov 2004. Of those 4 years, about 2 years of it was friends & family alpha, closed beta, and open beta.

 

...built off of Warcraft III.

[Kirtonos]

/cough Brad McQuaid /cough.

 

 

 

-Morloc

 

Everquest was about the same time frame as I recall. I came on late to that development cycle but I don't think it was longer than 5 years. Tanaris was the forever in development project at SOE/Verant until it was finally canceled. Prior to that, UO got out kinda quick but the bugs certainly showed it was a rushed project.

 

...built off of Warcraft III.

 

The only thing that WoW took from Warcraft I-III/Frozen Throne was story. Every asset, engine, and tool (aside from like Maya and 3D Studio Max) was created specifically for WoW including the proprietary editor. Combat, level design, content flow, progression systems... all of that was done from scratch with multiple iterations.

 

Everquest II was about 4 years as well and was in the same category. It took nothing from EQ as it was a brand new engine, setting, and asset pipeline. Classes mostly kept their names but that was about it. Combat along with every other progression system was completely redesigned.

 

However, the snide remarks indicating that it has to be an "original game" or "original IP" is a fallacy since 7d2d is a mix mash of several great games that came before it like say... um... Minecraft. Unless you are talking about pong or space invaders, just about every game is going to be derivative of the long list that came before them.

[Roland]

Original World of Warcraft was a little over 4 years from start to release in Nov 2004. Of those 4 years, about 2 years of it was friends & family alpha, closed beta, and open beta.

 

It had a development team of 50-60 so about double the workforce. It also used assets and graphical elements of Warcraft 3.

 

If TFP did something comparable and just used the assets and graphical elements from the Unity store instead of replacing them and creating their own that would have shaved a lot of time off.

 

But is 4-5 years the rule or the exception? World of Warcraft is an evolving game so you could argue that it’s development has continued for many years. In fact, can you even just purchase the base game from 2004? Aren’t all but the newest expansion automatically integrated into the base game now?

[Guppycur]

Roland covered it well, and really brought it home with the dlc comments.

 

...so just pretend the game has been out since A-x (pick one) and the remaining alphas are free dlc.

[Katitof]

Ok guys, I've got something.

 

I just need to wear my anti-mod gillie mantle first so give me a sec..........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, I'm done. Now, you know which game also wasn't afraid to scrap and rebuild constantly?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This massive success of a title called Duke Nukem Forever.

 

 

But is 4-5 years the rule or the exception? World of Warcraft is an evolving game so you could argue that it’s development has continued for many years. In fact, can you even just purchase the base game from 2004? Aren’t all but the newest expansion automatically integrated into the base game now?

Wow(as in expression)!

Its almost as if its actually possible to release a game and add massive, game changing content, change progression systems, change landscape, visuals, balance without wiping servers! (and yeah, wow had also some hilarious bugs when expansions were introduced)

[Tweedilderp]

The only thing that's pissed me off recently was the devs in the a18 diary saying it will come by the end of Q2 2019 come hell or high water, if a feature isn't ready they would drop it and publish the update. Then when I looked towards the end of june they had edited that out of their post,

 

So unfortunately I will never take them on their word again seeing as they can just edit it out and retract statements.

[Guppycur]

The only thing that's pissed me off recently was the devs in the a18 diary saying it will come by the end of Q2 2019 come hell or high water, if a feature isn't ready they would drop it and publish the update. Then when I looked towards the end of june they had edited that out of their post,

 

So unfortunately I will never take them on their word again seeing as they can just edit it out and retract statements.

 

Yeh at this point I think even TFP knows it's a running joke that they should 1) never give dates because 2) they never, EVER, make them.

[Katitof]

The only thing that's pissed me off recently was the devs in the a18 diary saying it will come by the end of Q2 2019 come hell or high water, if a feature isn't ready they would drop it and publish the update. Then when I looked towards the end of june they had edited that out of their post,

 

So unfortunately I will never take them on their word again seeing as they can just edit it out and retract statements.

 

'member the promise just after initial A17 release about releasing new alpha(not update, new alpha) every 3-4 months with lower content amount, because the features are now all done and they are happy with them and will switch focus from scrapping and building features to optimization and stuff? I 'member.

 

I guess old habits(release new alpha once a year) die hard.

[Birkenhoff]

Roland covered it well, and really brought it home with the dlc comments.

 

...so just pretend the game has been out since A-x (pick one) and the remaining alphas are free dlc.

 

But what about the killer argument in this community: "you're not playing this game, you're testing it" if someone dares to complain about something? Is it now: "don't complain about that free DLCs"

[Katitof]

Roland covered it well, and really brought it home with the dlc comments.

 

...so just pretend the game has been out since A-x (pick one) and the remaining alphas are free dlc.

 

How many games do you have in your library that force you to nuke your save file with each content DLC, free or not?

I don't remember having my Warframe account wiped clean, because they added more story missions, weapons and reworked completely melee combat.

[meganoth]

However, the snide remarks indicating that it has to be an "original game" or "original IP" is a fallacy since 7d2d is a mix mash of several great games that came before it like say... um... Minecraft. Unless you are talking about pong or space invaders, just about every game is going to be derivative of the long list that came before them.

 

There is a difference between making a clone of a well-understood game/genre and making a genre-mix with sometimes contradicting design-goals. I don't think there is any game you could point to and just say "what works for that game, works for 7d2d".

 

7d2d alphas are definitely not similar to DLCs, it would break the development model if everyone would look at it as a game in extended service. And it definitely is on the rather longer side of development. For some who don't like where the game is going (and I would say A18 will definitely give a definite glimpse of what the game will be in the end) they could argue that stopping earlier would have been good for the game. Everyone else will appreciate all the features that 7d2d will have in the end BECAUSE it is this long in development.

 

Fact is, no other game at the moment is comparable to 7d2d in its self-made niche. If I lose interest in this game tomorrow there will be no other game that can fill the void. Neither Minecraft nor Ark nor Dying Light has the potential to get me to invest hundreds of hours. But that's me, your mileage may vary. What do I care that Dying Light was made in x<7 years? If it had been made in 2 days with unwavering strength of purpose I still would not put hundreds of hours into it.

[Tin]

Not all games are created equal.

Not all designers are created equal.

Not all programmers are created equal.

So this time frame people want to apply is BS.

 

Another thing people are glossing over is:

TFP were not at this size from the start. It took them time to grow into the current amount of people they have.

So, for every new person they add to the team, means someone (or many someones), is training that person and showing them the ropes of the job they need to do. Training slows crap down..

People have also left. People leaving slows crap down, because now they need someone to fill those shoes, and that new person needs training.

[Guppycur]

But what about the killer argument in this community: "you're not playing this game, you're testing it" if someone dares to complain about something? Is it now: "don't complain about that free DLCs"

 

Whichever argument wins at that time.

[Roland]

It has been a long process. Has it been too long? In my opinion, it will only have been too long if nobody returns to play the final version once it releases.

 

If most of the people who have moved on because of how long it has taken come back and try it again and get hooked again then it really doesn’t matter.

 

And this game is strong in the force that sucks people back in after time away.

[Guppycur]

How many games do you have in your library that force you to nuke your save file with each content DLC, free or not?

I don't remember having my Warframe account wiped clean, because they added more story missions, weapons and reworked completely melee combat.

 

I dunno, I only play 1 game for the most part.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Not all games are created equal.

Not all designers are created equal.

Not all programmers are created equal.

So this time frame people want to apply is BS.

 

Another thing people are glossing over is:

TFP were not at this size from the start. It took them time to grow into the current amount of people they have.

So, for every new person they add to the team, means someone (or many someones), is training that person and showing them the ropes of the job they need to do. Training slows crap down..

People have also left. People leaving slows crap down, because now they need someone to fill those shoes, and that new person needs training.

 

^this

 

Tfp is mom and pop who's devs were essentially modders. Sure there were a few real credentials in their resume but not much.

 

...and look what they've done. I bet all small shops wish they were tfp.

[Roland]

However, the snide remarks indicating that it has to be an "original game" or "original IP" is a fallacy since 7d2d is a mix mash of several great games that came before it like say... um... Minecraft. Unless you are talking about pong or space invaders, just about every game is going to be derivative of the long list that came before them.

 

Snide remarks? I sincerely don’t believe it’s fair to compare a sequel to an original IP. I looked up World of Warcraft after you mentioned it and it wasn’t built completely from scratch. They did use “graphical elements” from Warcraft 3.

 

If you see a team making a sequel based off of similar work and assets they have full access to as being the same as a team making a new IP that is similar to other games on the market done by other studios then we can’t bridge such a gap in perspectives.

 

I also looked up Hearthstone btw which is nothing like WOW or Warcraft and the article specifically stated that the Hearthstone team was given access to all art assets Blizzard owned which sped up development immeasurably.

 

Not only is 7 Days not a sequel but it is the first game in TFPs quiver. If their second game takes 7-8 years to make then there’s a problem. But we already know they are developing modular systems they plan to reuse in future projects which should make future games have shorter dev cycles than this one has.

[Morloc]

Unless you are talking about pong or space invaders, just about every game is going to be derivative of the long list that came before them.

 

Perhaps not even then....

 

 

-Morloc

[Roland]

Patent Tolland has a nice ring to it. If only I could think up something to patent in the first place so I could sue over it in the second place and earn some settlement scratch in the third place...

 

Interesting read. Thanks.

[Kirtonos]

Snide remarks? I sincerely don’t believe it’s fair to compare a sequel to an original IP. I looked up World of Warcraft after you mentioned it and it wasn’t built completely from scratch. They did use “graphical elements” from Warcraft 3.

 

If you see a team making a sequel based off of similar work and assets they have full access to as being the same as a team making a new IP that is similar to other games on the market done by other studios then we can’t bridge such a gap in perspectives.

 

I'll say it again because apparently it needs to be said... zero art was used from WCIII in WoW. Now, Samwise's concept art might have been used to create the assets but that's about it. Even then, I think he might have redone most of it for the higher poly characters and them being larger than 1 inch on the screen.

 

Regardless, you asked the question about a AAA game with a shorter development cycle. I brought up several and here we are. Hell, I didn't even mention Hearthstone but that was a completely new game from Blizzard that was done as a passion project by small internal team. I'd bring up LOL but that is gonna be considered a sequel by y'all since it was originally a mod for WC III. Doesn't matter that it was a small team that took that to the next level, making new champions, maps, engine, and platform to ship it. I guess UO doesn't count either because there were the Ultima games before that.

 

Y'all didn't touch EQ though. Although I suppose one could argue that it was just a different take on Meridian 59, UO, Darksun Online, and that no real true break through innovation or development happened there. Brad copied all that from other games. Standing on the shoulders of giants one might say.

 

I get that y'all are the the cheerleaders that have to tow the company line. I feel for you, honestly. Quite frankly, TFP can take the next 7 years doing free DLC to take us to Alpha 22, Beta 1, Omega 13, Gold Master_001, or whatever you want to call it. I give zero zeds about that at this point. Not my circus, not my monkeys. I just really hate seeing people getting shut down by y'all with the tired "it's alpha" defense. Studios have designed and shipped titles similar to this in the timeframe. Hell, Epic made Fortnite, had it fail, redesigned it in beta, and is now one of the most popular games on the planet with years of release under their belt. All while 7d2d was "in alpha" (on PC).

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Perhaps not even then....

 

 

-Morloc

 

There is a special place in hell for game patent trolls. Ranks right up there with the guy that created double ads for YouTube videos.

[Wyrda78]

I am glad that someone had the foreknowledge about examples of game development to put a dent in the endless wall of TFP apologetics. Clearly the development is taking a long time in comparison to at least some other studios. I guess now the excuse is shifting to "TFP is a small team" or "early access started early". Development is slow, and combine that with the fact they can't decide on the features they want. We get a crappy gun part system, years later we get a crappy "gun in every house" system, maybe in a couple years they will sort it out? The new perk system in A18 looks crappy. So, a year to get a crappy perk system, ??? years until they fix it and actually design a good progression system. Kill me already. I maintain what I said. This ♥♥♥♥ should already have been sorted out before they wasted their precious tortoise-speed developer hours developing it. If they need ideas, there is no lack of them. I've already spent countless hours "playtesting" the game, written essays about it, I could write essays more too. They should first construct a vision of the finished product, then follow though with it. Eye on the prize.

[meganoth]

If they need ideas, there is no lack of them. I've already spent countless hours "playtesting" the game, written essays about it, I could write essays more too. They should first construct a vision of the finished product, then follow though with it. Eye on the prize.

 

There are so many people who just know the only correct way to perfection, too bad they are only producing essays instead of results

[Roland]

I get that y'all are the the cheerleaders that have to tow the company line. I feel for you, honestly. Quite frankly, TFP can take the next 7 years doing free DLC to take us to Alpha 22, Beta 1, Omega 13, Gold Master_001, or whatever you want to call it. I give zero zeds about that at this point. Not my circus, not my monkeys. I just really hate seeing people getting shut down by y'all with the tired "it's alpha" defense. Studios have designed and shipped titles similar to this in the timeframe. Hell, Epic made Fortnite, had it fail, redesigned it in beta, and is now one of the most popular games on the planet with years of release under their belt. All while 7d2d was "in alpha" (on PC).

 

Nobody is shutting down anyone. Some of what you say contradicts articles that I found and sure-- it's the internet and anyone can edit Wikipedia-- but then who the heck are you and why should your take on how games were developed be taken as the truth at face value?

 

But assuming you are correct in your facts you are still wrong about anyone getting shut down. Everyone is free to share their opinion and as long as it breaks no rules it stands and is able to be read by all who come to this thread. Both Wyrda's and your comments and perspectives are still here along with those who wrote a different perspective. They co-exist side by side for people to read and to make their own decisions based on how compelling the arguments are that they read along with their own biases. Some will read your explanation and perspective and nod their head and feel absolute outrage and shock that it has taken so much longer for these developers to work on this game than pretty much every other studio out there.

 

As for "feeling for us" that aren't concerned by the length of the development, thanks, but we aren't the ones getting weepy or angry about that length. We are fine with it and hope that they continue to polish and add to the game for years to come. You're right that the name of the update release doesn't matter. What matters is that update releases continue to come and the game continues to evolve in interesting ways which I believe it has.

[RestInPieces]

It has been a long process. Has it been too long? In my opinion, it will only have been too long if nobody returns to play the final version once it releases.

 

If most of the people who have moved on because of how long it has taken come back and try it again and get hooked again then it really doesn’t matter.

 

And this game is strong in the force that sucks people back in after time away.

 

Nobody is shutting down anyone. Some of what you say contradicts articles that I found and sure-- it's the internet and anyone can edit Wikipedia-- but then who the heck are you and why should your take on how games were developed be taken as the truth at face value?

 

One has to be living under a rock to think that the development cycles are normal/fast tbh. And while the game is great and fills a gap in the market no other game has filled until now (they could have though) - so it will definitely survive and thrive (already has), it still loses momentum and deters some players at these rates - it's impossible not to.

 

However, should TFP get criticized for it? It's still their business whether they will choose to rush, rehash, or release. For whatever reason, the development is slow and, personally, I am not exactly happy with it, but the game is worth it.

[asmosnuts]

Development time isnt really a concern for most, what is, is the current state of the game. Lack of zombies outside

and too many inside for instance. Bloodmoons and dungeons rapidly turning into a bullet spongefests with rapidly diminishing returns .

RWG went from sublime to unworkable (Yes we know about mods) lbd, gating, mining etc etc. There are concerns about zombie numbers dropping again when bandits and npcs are introduced and no one indicating whether its even possible to get the numbers needed.

Most of the concerns raised are from long term players dismayed at the changes to what was an almost perfected game which now seems badly broken and will inevitably draw criticism from people with so much time invested in it.

I dont think there is any real venom aimed at TFP (by most at least) but there is a lot of concern over the change in direction and its impact on how the game plays.

Obviously the game is their baby and their vision, we can only hope it goes back towards the game it was. If it doesnt we all have the option to move on.

Whichever way you look at it no-one can say they didnt get their moneys worth and how many games can you say THAT about.