New books from Madmole

[KrashYT22]

1. I would like to express my sincere thanks for giving this information to us. Because without news it is hard to sit when you wait.

 

2. I am also very pleased with the fact that the books did decide to recycle. And especially pleased with the very type of new concept. That books are new unique perks. There will be new opportunities to get the joy of finding something valuable.

 

3. I hope you will not forget about the design, and adding books to the interface (it seems silly to write it on my behalf, but forgot to add many important logical elements to the interface, and you have to keep them in mind) as a separate window.

 

4. To preserve the atmosphere, in the window of books-perks it seems to me it is not necessary to write, what collections of books are, and books. Is that information will be filled in about what books are in the collection, and what bonuses they give, while finding at least 1 book from this collection (I don’t know what you came up with, so I’m just writing what I have already invented). And the rest, closed collections and mark as an unknown collection (as a closed hero in the fighting game).

 

5. Then he noticed that all the numbers written in the example are round, beautiful - 5 5 5 5 5. Certainly not for the sake of perfectionists, but can it be for the harsh survival, the gloomy interface to make them different? - 5 7 9 11 and so on.

 

6. About the lucky marauder. Since the cartridges are so made of brass, can it be replaced with brass for building materials? More chance to find building materials (iron, steel, mechanical parts, duct tape, and the like).

 

 

7.Just a day ago, I wrote a huge post about the system of punishments for death, and injuries. Do you think to finish the system of punishments, injuries and diseases? Because she, too, is in a non-playable form, it is not terrible to die, there is no motivation to survive, for it is easier to wake up healthy and well fed in your sleeping bag.

 

8.And so no one answered about the system of lost experience - explosives, rocket launchers, fire cocktails, do not bring experience when killing zombies. What causes most players to remove these weapons from the arsenal. Also, traps have to be limited to slowing traps in order to manually kill zombies on a bloody night in order not to lose experience. Why not make a collection of experience from personal traps 50% in a radius of 50-100 meters for example?

 

That's all for now, there is still a lot to say, but I will not stretch the content at the moment, thank you for your attention

 

"" I've already designed nearly 100 perk books. The old perk books will be deleted. The new perk books are not temporary perks, but permanent once you read them. There are collections of books, typically 5 to 8 volumes. Each volume is a unique perk but if you collect the entire set you get a special collector bonus perk that is more OP than the others.

 

Here are a couple sets:

Night Stalker Books

Night stalker Vol 1 Do 5% more sneak damage at night.

Night stalker Vol 2 Sneak 5% better at night.

Night stalker Vol 3 Knives do 5% more damage at night.

Night stalker Vol 4 Never encumbered at night.

Night stalker Vol 5 Bows do 5% more damage at night.

Night stalker Vol 6 Gain 5% more xp from sneak kills at night

Night Stalker Collection Perk Do an extra 50% sneak damage to sleeping victims at night.

Lucky looter Books

Lucky looter Vol 1 Find more dukes in loot

Lucky looter Vol 2 Find more ammo in loot

Lucky looter Vol 3 Find more brass in loot

Lucky looter Vol 4 Find more books in loot

Lucky looter Vol 5 Find more food in loot

Lucky looter Vol 6 Find more medical items in loot

Lucky Looter Collector Perk Find more mods in loot

 

"

[OldManBrian]

Personally, I love what he's doing but I think the books should have more of an impact.

 

5% here and there is nice and all, but still nothing to get excited about. In a16, each schematic was potentially a game changer, it unlocked whole new avenues of play. 5% just doesn't have that same impact.

[FA_Q2]

Personally, I love what he's doing but I think the books should have more of an impact.

 

5% here and there is nice and all, but still nothing to get excited about. In a16, each schematic was potentially a game changer, it unlocked whole new avenues of play. 5% just doesn't have that same impact.

 

Balance is always something that has to be flushed out after play testing from us. Cant say they do not have enough impact without actually trying them out, finding out how rare they are and finding out how they interact with each other.

 

5% may seems small but it sure is not when stacked with the 50% for the set, other sneak bonuses and possibly mods. We have no idea how those numbers will flush out when they interact with all the other things we have.

 

Edit:

It also looks like something similar to guns in 16 - that 5% is like a good gun barrel - useless alone but when you find the complete set it is powerful.

[Ghostlight]

Here are a couple sets:

Night Stalker Books

Night stalker Vol 1 Do 5% more sneak damage at night.

Night stalker Vol 2 Sneak 5% better at night.

Night stalker Vol 3 Knives do 5% more damage at night.

Night stalker Vol 4 Never encumbered at night.

Night stalker Vol 5 Bows do 5% more damage at night.

Night stalker Vol 6 Gain 5% more xp from sneak kills at night

Night Stalker Collection Perk Do an extra 50% sneak damage to sleeping victims at night.

Lucky looter Books

Lucky looter Vol 1 Find more dukes in loot

Lucky looter Vol 2 Find more ammo in loot

Lucky looter Vol 3 Find more brass in loot

Lucky looter Vol 4 Find more books in loot

Lucky looter Vol 5 Find more food in loot

Lucky looter Vol 6 Find more medical items in loot

Lucky Looter Collector Perk Find more mods in loot

 

"

 

I hope those buffs are permanent and stack, otherwise -> INSTA-SCRAP!! -> I'd rather have 3 paper tbh, especially end-game when paper is a b*tch

[Roland]

Permanent and stack.

[Limdood]

Balance is always something that has to be flushed out after play testing from us. Cant say they do not have enough impact without actually trying them out, finding out how rare they are and finding out how they interact with each other.

loot chance/proc chance/etc. can't be easily playtested. Look at the debate over the loot bonus perk...some people saying they find tier 6 tools day 1, some who never find them until they can build them...adding 5% to random chance can't be evaluated through playtester impressions.

 

5% may seems small but it sure is not when stacked with the 50% for the set, other sneak bonuses and possibly mods. We have no idea how those numbers will flush out when they interact with all the other things we have.

That's not how math works. If i do 100 damage and add 5%, i deal 105 damage. If i have a 50% damage bonus already and deal 150 damage (100 damage + 50% = 150 damage) and add an extra 5%, i deal 155 damage (damage multipliers in 7dtd have been additive so far). In either case, the bonus is 5 damage. If it's underwhelming at base levels, it's going to stay underwhelming with other bonuses.

 

Edit:

It also looks like something similar to guns in 16 - that 5% is like a good gun barrel - useless alone but when you find the complete set it is powerful.

It just means its no different from a normal perk or stat, but you have to find it.

 

Like, more possible bonuses is great and all, and I'm happier to see them in than to not see them in...but not by much. The bonuses (and the damage one in particular) are hardly "new and unique." additionally, the person you're quoting has a valid point...the new perks mathematically have a negligible impact and seem more something to make people say "finally, books do something!" as long as they don't look too hard into the fact that the "something" is really very very little.

[meganoth]

Like, more possible bonuses is great and all, and I'm happier to see them in than to not see them in...but not by much. The bonuses (and the damage one in particular) are hardly "new and unique." additionally, the person you're quoting has a valid point...the new perks mathematically have a negligible impact and seem more something to make people say "finally, books do something!" as long as they don't look too hard into the fact that the "something" is really very very little.

 

The individual book maybe. Ideally you would only get the set bonus if you collect them all before reading them (by crafting the books into a "book compendium" item, that would reinforce the impression. I doubt TFP will do this though.

 

By the way, how much was the damage difference between a quality 500 and a quality 600 gun in A16? I don't know at the moment, but was it much more than 5 or 10%? People were killing for that difference

[Ghostlight]

By the way, how much was the damage difference between a quality 500 and a quality 600 gun in A16? I don't know at the moment, but was it much more than 5 or 10%? People were killing for that difference

 

Of course we were. It was the closest thing to an end-game we had. And we don't even have that now.

[Poojam]

Of course we were. It was the closest thing to an end-game we had. And we don't even have that now.

 

This just sort of clicked with me. I don't think TFP view the game as having an end game. Based on Madmole's posts in the past, I think they all just create a new game when they get bored/have a base built with augers & vehicles. While it's obvious to most players who desire a persistent environment (prevalent on MP servers), and the logical conclusion to all this energy spent on leveling, I don't think there is an Act 3 to this drama - by design.

 

They haven't been spending much energy on what would constitute end game for several alphas. It's all about stretching out the leveling and adding grind to make you play for longer.

[Blackrook]

They haven't been spending much energy on what would constitute end game for several alphas. It's all about stretching out the leveling and adding grind to make you play for longer.

 

Do survival games in general have an endgame? Unless you are doing PvP, the end point is when it just gets too boring/easy, you've seen all you can on that map and you say 'meh' , perhaps play something else for a while and/or then reroll a new world.

 

Do 7days/survival games need an end game to be a good game?

 

As far as I see it, legendary stuff or rare perk books are great as they will give more purpose in late stage game , but it makes no difference in the end, you will still get to the same end point of 'meh' at some point and time to roll a new game.

[Cirion]

Do 7days/survival games need an end game to be a good game?

 

No, but it does need a proper time-sink end-game if it wants to transition from a good to a truly amazing game. In my opinion of course. I like the game, but it's just on the cusp of truly being a great game if it fixes or adds just a few more things, like rwg (ideally making underground caverns a comeback), colonies & friendly NPCs / town building, a more comprehensive story mode.. hopefully an improvement of the perk system to merge A16 and A17 skill systems... removal of level gates, better gamestage calculations and more logical "progression"... fixing of some of my gripes with zombie AI... & when they add their whole slew of additional weapon/armor mods.. my opinion though.

 

The question should not be how to make it just a good game, why settle? Maybe it's because I personally see how much potential there could be if certain features are added, and maybe I'm the only one, as it seems the dev's are not too keen on the colony idea in particular due to the difficulty of implementation, which is somewhat understandable, but the feature is so awesome (IMO) that it's worth the effort. Perhaps not for alpha, but maybe beta?

[meganoth]

Of course we were. It was the closest thing to an end-game we had. And we don't even have that now.

 

I'm not saying it was rational though to look for minimal improvements . Anyway, legendary weapons are supposed to have random boni and therefore have the potential to provide that completionist kick weapon quality provided previously. We will see.

 

No, but it does need a proper time-sink end-game if it wants to transition from a good to a truly amazing game. In my opinion of course. I like the game, but it's just on the cusp of truly being a great game if it fixes or adds just a few more things, like rwg (ideally making underground caverns a comeback), colonies & friendly NPCs / town building, a more comprehensive story mode.. hopefully an improvement of the perk system to merge A16 and A17 skill systems... removal of level gates, better gamestage calculations and more logical "progression"... fixing of some of my gripes with zombie AI... & when they add their whole slew of additional weapon/armor mods.. my opinion though.

 

The question should not be how to make it just a good game, why settle? Maybe it's because I personally see how much potential there could be if certain features are added, and maybe I'm the only one, as it seems the dev's are not too keen on the colony idea in particular due to the difficulty of implementation, which is somewhat understandable, but the feature is so awesome (IMO) that it's worth the effort. Perhaps not for alpha, but maybe beta?

 

I agree with the general gist of your post, but want to comment on two points:

 

1) level gates that exist in the game at the moment have absolutely nothing to do with end-game. You are long past them when end-game is supposed to start.

2) bethesda tried colonies and it seems they failed for all the effort they put into them. It is a big feature. You can't just make a colony ask repeatedly for help if you can't establish an emotional connection with the player or make the player dependant on the colony. And that might need a lot more effort and additional features.

[fragtzack]

Agree, the perk books idea is uber.

 

My suggestion for a book perk:

 

Eat More Beard

[Cirion]

Yeah I mean fair enough (in reply to colonies) but at the very least, some other things I think would be a lot easier to implement but still have infinite replay... like infinite progression (continual increase in zombie difficulty, continual increase in player levels and loot quality indefinitely...), "new game plus" (carry loot and levels to new map), etc... just to name a couple that WOULD be a lot easier (probably) to make than working colonies.

[Limdood]

Do survival games in general have an endgame? Unless you are doing PvP, the end point is when it just gets too boring/easy, you've seen all you can on that map and you say 'meh' , perhaps play something else for a while and/or then reroll a new world.

 

Do 7days/survival games need an end game to be a good game?

 

As far as I see it, legendary stuff or rare perk books are great as they will give more purpose in late stage game , but it makes no difference in the end, you will still get to the same end point of 'meh' at some point and time to roll a new game.

 

I've also played The Forest, Rimworld, Raft, Terraria, Minecraft, and Subnautica - all survival games of various flavors.

 

Of those 6, Forest and Subnautica both have story endings....you don't HAVE to do the story ending, but that's the theoretical goal.

 

Rimworld has a story ending (that many people who play intentionally ignore), as well as a steadily increasing difficulty curve. While it is possible to build a literally untouchable setup in that game, there is enough RNG that you can still suffer setbacks, and the balance, complexity, and content is fairly rich from planetfall to extreme endgame.

 

Terraria most definitely has an endgame, but is probably among the LEAST like 7dtd of all the listed games. Still, it has such a huge range of content that you have to play an EXTREME amount of time to reach the real final content.

 

Minecraft and raft are the most similar to 7dtd, in that they are the only 2 games on the list where you can relatively easily and quickly reach the point of "invincibility"/"I can't lose." Obviously minecraft is a wildly successful game and technically is proof that you don't NEED an endgame, but it also will run on a rusty toaster, has a huge variety of content (official and user created), and has the benefit of being considered the "first" open world sandbox survival game.

 

That leaves raft as the only other game on the list that both lacks an endgame, and suffers for it....and there are two important things going on in that game that should be noted to answer the quoted post:

1) the developers have been pushing almost EXCLUSIVELY end game content the last several patches in a row, and there is no real indication that the trend will stop. They have been steadily and consistently extending the length of the game by adding more and more things to do specifically when you reach the end of the previous content (notably, this is what terraria did as well through the vast majority of it's development)

2) Raft receives a LOT of flak and criticism for exactly this point...it is less popular than it could be solely BECAUSE the gameplay exhausts itself so quickly.

 

There's no denying that a large criticism of 7dtd is the lack of an endgame....does it NEED an endgame? well, even with "endgame" being hard to define, you can easily say that technically "no" it doesn't need one. But there's no denying that criticism, and the validity of that criticism. Where most survival games, ESPECIALLY this deep into their development have the early and mid-game mostly locked in and spend the vast portion of their development continuously adding onto the end of the existing content while making minor tweaks and rebalances to the early/mid, 7dtd has decided to continually reinvent it's own early and midgame content over and over.

 

This has led to much of the playerbase playing each new alpha from the start, but quickly exhausting everything new, only to find that the game only offers content for the same, relatively small amount of time before looking around and thinking "ok, there we go. I've done everything....I've even done everything a few different ways....so....guess I'll go do a different game until they update something again."

[Khulkhuum]

I agree that the term endgame is loosely defined and each games has its own borders for that.

 

Terraria had quite a lot expansions, firstly introducing Hardcore, later on adding various bosses, Crimson biome (alternative to Corruption) and finally the Moonlord final boss. The most inspiring thing about the game is that it gives the player freedom to choose one of the countless ways to play, not only in exploration (what to seek), but also what equipment you want to use.

 

Going by the example of Raft, you at some point start pushing further back where the current endgame becomes midgame and new content becomes endgame. This is not a bad solution, but has to fit into the mechanics of the game and how you progress. In 7DTD it would require new resources to find, mine or combine using more advanced tools or crafting stations. These new items would make you gather/mine/fight faster and that's how usually people perceive progress.

 

Just compare how Terraria and 7DTD work with crafting. In each game you could have endgame equipment from the start and it would greatly increase the speed in which you do things, yet the moment when you "progress into getting it" is far different - Terraria requires you to craft better pickaxes to mine better ores, going into Hardmode to do it all over (more of a sense of shifting to better equipment and feeling the change). In 7DTD you mine the same resources, just require better skills for it and bam, you got steel tools. Nothing really changes, apart maybe from mining underground instead of boulders.

 

I personally enjoy more content locked behind "not being able to mine/find" things, because you don't have appropriate tools. I visibly see that there is an ore i can't mine yet or resources to find using a specific tool - in 7DTD you have eletronic parts and various things you get from a Wrench, but there isn't anything past that. You could get the Wrench day 1, where's the progress in that?

[FA_Q2]

I agree that the term endgame is loosely defined and each games has its own borders for that.

 

Terraria had quite a lot expansions, firstly introducing Hardcore, later on adding various bosses, Crimson biome (alternative to Corruption) and finally the Moonlord final boss. The most inspiring thing about the game is that it gives the player freedom to choose one of the countless ways to play, not only in exploration (what to seek), but also what equipment you want to use.

 

Going by the example of Raft, you at some point start pushing further back where the current endgame becomes midgame and new content becomes endgame. This is not a bad solution, but has to fit into the mechanics of the game and how you progress. In 7DTD it would require new resources to find, mine or combine using more advanced tools or crafting stations. These new items would make you gather/mine/fight faster and that's how usually people perceive progress.

 

Just compare how Terraria and 7DTD work with crafting. In each game you could have endgame equipment from the start and it would greatly increase the speed in which you do things, yet the moment when you "progress into getting it" is far different - Terraria requires you to craft better pickaxes to mine better ores, going into Hardmode to do it all over (more of a sense of shifting to better equipment and feeling the change). In 7DTD you mine the same resources, just require better skills for it and bam, you got steel tools. Nothing really changes, apart maybe from mining underground instead of boulders.

 

I personally enjoy more content locked behind "not being able to mine/find" things, because you don't have appropriate tools. I visibly see that there is an ore i can't mine yet or resources to find using a specific tool - in 7DTD you have eletronic parts and various things you get from a Wrench, but there isn't anything past that. You could get the Wrench day 1, where's the progress in that?

 

You can get the wrench day one BUT you cant do anything with those electronic parts you get until much later. IOW, you can mine anything day one BUT using it is another matter. I think this is a large part of the reason the forge was pushed back.

 

No matter how much shale you mine on day one, it is utterly useless for a long time.

[madmole]

Personally, I love what he's doing but I think the books should have more of an impact.

 

5% here and there is nice and all, but still nothing to get excited about. In a16, each schematic was potentially a game changer, it unlocked whole new avenues of play. 5% just doesn't have that same impact.

 

The numbers will need testing but the idea is that one book isn't going to make you OP or be game breaking. The bonus perk for having read the whole set will be realy good as you can see, an extra 50% damage to someone sleeping plus the already high sneak damage would probably be one shotting sleepers if shot in the head even with a pistol as long as you have some perks too.

 

Currently I have well over 100 books now, and there are some really cool ones that aim to fulfill certain play styles. Even new crafts like ghillie suits, c4 that does mass damage to doors and safes but not other block types, books to help raiding, each weapon archtype has a full suite of perks, like craft bulk ammo, successive shots cripple, dismember perks etc. There is even a perk that has a 20% chance to one shot ores. So even if you suck at mining and have a stone axe you will probably plow through boulders like a pro.

[madmole]

I hope those buffs are permanent and stack, otherwise -> INSTA-SCRAP!! -> I'd rather have 3 paper tbh, especially end-game when paper is a b*tch

They are permanent but do not stack abilities. You can stack in inventory if that is what you meant. They can be sold to traders, traded to other players. Finding that one book you need to get the bonus perk will make trading an nice choice. We're adding novels, technical documents and other filler books you can sell, or read for XP, and of course scrap them if you want.

[madmole]

Agree, the perk books idea is uber.

 

My suggestion for a book perk:

 

Eat More Beard

I ate my beard last year when we missed our A17 ship date, I'm still full. At least I have a beard again.

[PoppaTot]

I ate my beard last year when we missed our A17 ship date, I'm still full. At least I have a beard again.

 

There are only 2 types of people: Those with beard, and those without. lmao

[Cirion]

Thanks for the info MM. I am now more excited for them than I was before. I am glad you are adding new unique things to them. This definitely gives the player incentive to go loot. Well done.

 

Now let's hope players don't start whining "but I need X magazine so I can get this shiny new mining skills and am on day 50 and can't find it". No you don't "need" it. please be sure to shut up such players so we can actually have nice things for a change =P

 

inb4 the RNG haters start coming out of the woodwork

 

I ate my beard last year when we missed our A17 ship date, I'm still full. At least I have a beard again.

 

All the cool people have beards. Sometimes I trim shorter, or longer, but I always have a beard now. #memberofyeardcrew (full year without shaving). I ultimately didn't like the look, but it was fun to try that.

[Prisma501]

So RNG "haters" should be shut up? Interesting.

 

Any feelings about skill tree haters in that regard?

 

No one should be shut up. IMO.

 

Cheers

[Cirion]

RNG and RWG is what makes this game interesting.

 

Without RNG, you know you will always achieve X milestone by Y day, give or take. That's maybe fun for the first game play or two, but after that, meh. We need at least SOME interesting things from RNG.

 

What's the incentive otherwise to keep looting once the only thing left to get is ammo? That's not interesting anymore at that point. So again - props MM, hope this is as good as it sounds

 

in reply to skill trees - I am not going to derail this thread. Read my other posts. long story short though is I have ideas for skill trees that will make all parties happy including myself, AND the people who like the current system. my intent is not to maliciously screw over people who have different playstyles than me, but my intent IS to avoid having people who have different playstyles than me screwing ME over. if that makes sense?

[Prisma501]

Yeh yeh, but how would you like to be shut up?

 

Pretty hypocritical.

 

Cheers