Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Jackelmyer]

Im pretty sure he was answering the user who stated its just to much work to build a horde base underground. And that its less work with proper tools and perks. He even mentioned the new option to speed things up. Still seeing it all clearly?

 

Cheers

 

Fair point. Bad me for skimming... /selfhandslap

[Cirion]

I've done the underground base in about every play through. Almost always, with nothing more than a shovel and pickaxe. I think I had and used an auger on one playthrough and tossed it because the dang thing wore down so fast and was annoying.

 

How people say it's easy or no effort going underground is just a sign of their ignorance. Which... why they have talk smack about a game play style they don't use is beyond me.

 

And you made a horde base out of it? In A17? Again the problem with making underground horde bases (not just underground bases to store your crap, that's different, I agree, that much is easy to do in the first week without an auger) takes tremendous effort due to the cheesy digging AI.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

They were removed because of SI and performance problems. They've been trying to get them returned but it has been problematic. Hopefully they will figure it out.

 

Thanks for this info. I would be very happy if it comes back.

[Roland]

You're "mistake" is another person's definition of how it should be done. I'll give you that in A17, it feels much more like a mistake now. Fair enough there.

 

And why are you defining how an underground base is fun? I thought you don't do underground bases?

 

My analysis that it is mistake is based upon people saying it is too much work or impossible because of how tough it is to dig. It's just like the mistake people make trying to break into safes with a brown stoneaxe on day one. I mean I guess its not a mistake if they enjoy that. The people complaining don't seem to be enjoying it so....mistake. If they wait until they are prepared to go underground then it is more fun and....not a mistake.

 

This totally reminds me of a reviewer who went into the wasteland hub city on day one while still naked and only a stone axe and complained that the game was impossible and overwhelming. Uh....no. He made a clear mistake. You wait and gear up and prepare before going into the wasteland. You wait and gear up and prepare before breaking safes. You wait and gear up and perk up before going underground. There is nothing wrong with the design as there needs to be places that are accessible from Day One and others that are better accessed later on after some character growth.

 

I'm defining how an underground base is fun for me. You don't see ME complaining about it because I'm not making the same mistake others are. And I used to dig all the time back when zombies did too. Then I stopped for a few alphas. Something just recently sparked my interest in it again.

 

Probably the game getting in touch with it's roots again.

[Cirion]

I think another part of my critique is that there is almost zero incentive or reason to build bases (at least ones that are for fighting the horde) underground. I am fair and do list a couple of pros, but they aren't really enough to motivate me to ever make horde bases underground. I want to be clear in emphasizing horde base because underground bases are still useful to hide your loot.

 

Pros

- non blood moon hordes don't really bother you (about the only positive I can think of?)... but that's pointless if you're going for a horde base anyway?

- might get you closer to some ore deposits.. again though, this is more of a pro for a non-horde base

 

Cons

- can not effectively make it without auger. Horde bases need to be fairly large and set up with lots of traps to be effective, which means lots and lots of digging. if you want to have a nice ramp leading from the surface all the way to bedrock made of concrete and not just have a ghetto terrain ramp (A bad idea with digging zombies) this is where most of the effort lies.

- very time consuming, even with auger, at least until digging zombies are fixed to actually take your entrances rather than dig straight down (Currently the only solution is to layer up your base)

 

So my conclusion is... what's the point of trying to make horde bases underground other than to try something different (and if that's your goal, then OK, fair enough)?

 

You can't make underground horde bases early, and they are not any better than above ground bases anyway especially with the addition of digging zombies and a cheesy AI that will dig through your walls too instead of taking your entrances (unless you layer up). They are both more time and resource expensive for no benefit other than the novelty of trying something different. In general if I put more effort and resources into something, I expect a return on my investment. Which isn't the case.

[art1336]

Reading this has me suspecting that what you and perhaps others want to be able to do is start on your base during the very first week of the game. This is a mistake. An underground base is going to be fun and worthwhile after you have the supporting perks and tools with mods that will make it much less work. Take over a POI for the first couple of weeks and then pick a great spot to start your underground bunker.

 

or (as of 17.2)

 

Change the options to give the player 300% block damage and then you can get started much sooner.

 

I say your suspicion is correct. I do want to start playing in the first week of the game. I appreciate your opinion that my decision to begin playing in the first week of the game is a mistake, but you state it as a fact when it is simply your opinion.

Yes, I want to start my base during the first week. We take over a church. Start a shaft going down. Someone spends their first couple of nights banging with a stone axe until we have a ladder going down to bedrock. We slowly enlarge the thing over the course of the first week. We've done that from 15-17 and it's worked so far. It still works in 17, it is just a lot slower. But we do it, and though you think it is a mistake I can assure you that our server playstyle is not very unlike the playstyles you see on many streamer channels. Primarily because we watch the streamers and there is obviously going to be replication.

 

But I must agree with Jackelmyer. People who kept their forges and workstations and storage underground in their vast tunnel networks that connected their dozens of outposts all over the map feel targeted. Most of us weren't trying to avoid fighting the horde on horde night. If I wanted to do that I would just run in a large circle around my base, ride a bike for thirty seconds, dismount, do some looting, cut down a tree, then get back on before the horde catches me. Or I would spend all night treading water. There are too many mechanics for avoiding the horde that specifically targeting underground playstyles seemed, erm, targeted.

Much as removing zombie loot and harvesting to try to address item duping. We still have item duping and now less bones. It just always seems an overreaction.

[Cirion]

I think the confusion may lie in the key distinguishment

 

- Non horde underground base

 

- Horde underground base

 

Two very different things. The former is very easy to do, even with a stone or iron shovel. The latter takes tremendous effort, even with an auger. The latter is what I'm salty about.

 

And even within horde underground base there are two potential flavors of them

 

- building only structures at bedrock. this works and is less time consuming than the next option I will describe, but results in swiss cheese terrain

 

- building structure that leads from surface to bedrock. this involves a very large scale operation, especially if you want a ramp big enough to drive vehicles in to bedrock while also having room for traps for the horde when they come in at horde night. this is the kind of base I want to make. if you just use "terrain" for the entrance, you can be all but guaranteed the horde is going to tear it up. the horde will still tear it up unless you layer it up 2,3,4,5x+ layer of blocks depending on the size of it and how the AI works.

 

the argument one would likely make is that of course what I want is going to take some work, and I don't deny that, but I just think its ridiculous that I have to make multiple layers. It would not be nearly as time consuming if I only need to have one layer and just have a big clear entrance for zombies and they'd take it rather than dig. THIS is what I am complaining about. I am bolding this to make my point clear. IF this aspect of AI is addressed, I will probably stop being salty.

[Roland]

I say your suspicion is correct. I do want to start playing in the first week of the game. I appreciate your opinion that my decision to begin playing in the first week of the game is a mistake, but you state it as a fact when it is simply your opinion.

Yes, I want to start my base during the first week. We take over a church. Start a shaft going down. Someone spends their first couple of nights banging with a stone axe until we have a ladder going down to bedrock. We slowly enlarge the thing over the course of the first week. We've done that from 15-17 and it's worked so far. It still works in 17, it is just a lot slower. But we do it, and though you think it is a mistake I can assure you that our server playstyle is not very unlike the playstyles you see on many streamer channels. Primarily because we watch the streamers and there is obviously going to be replication.

 

But I must agree with Jackelmyer. People who kept their forges and workstations and storage underground in their vast tunnel networks that connected their dozens of outposts all over the map feel targeted. Most of us weren't trying to avoid fighting the horde on horde night. If I wanted to do that I would just run in a large circle around my base, ride a bike for thirty seconds, dismount, do some looting, cut down a tree, then get back on before the horde catches me. Or I would spend all night treading water. There are too many mechanics for avoiding the horde that specifically targeting underground playstyles seemed, erm, targeted.

Much as removing zombie loot and harvesting to try to address item duping. We still have item duping and now less bones. It just always seems an overreaction.

 

If you are enjoying yourself then it isn't a mistake. In my opinion, going to bedrock with a brown stone axe, zero perks into stamina, and zero perks into strength and mining would be a phenomenal mistake. What's the deal with saying something is a mistake? You're acting like I called your Mother or Sister a name or something. Of course it is my opinion. What's so threatening about making mistakes? I make plenty and then I learn from them. I learned that breaking into safes was much more rewarding if I had an iron sledgehammer and some buffs to looting. I DID break open a safe once on day one with my brown stone axe and my zero looting ability and it was a big mistake and I learned from it. Let me separate some facts and opinions for you since you are having a tough time understanding implicitly what I'm giving as a fact and as an opinion.

 

Fact: Digging to bedrock with a tier 1 stone axe and no perks or mods will be very slow and stamina killing.

Opinion: If you don't like tedious repetitive activity with extremely slow progress and frequent necessary breaks to regain stamina then doing so is a huuuuuuuuge mistake.

 

Fact: There are places and activities in the game that are better visited and done once you have developed your character a bit

Opinion: I wish there was even more of this in the game as it gives you something to work towards.

 

Fact: People will wander into areas too dangerous for their current level and try to do things sooner than they are prepared to be able to do those things quickly and easily.

Opinion: If they did it for extra challenge or inadvertently then they should be happy or learn to avoid it the next time but not complain and expect the devs to make all places and all activities accessible from Day 1.

Opinion: People crying over tough and tedious gameplay that can be solved 100% by spending some time developing their character first is ridiculous and I pray the devs don't take their complaints seriously.

[Star69]

My humble opinion is horde-worthy base construction, whether above or below ground, is mostly determined by the number of people playing together. If you are solo, it’s quite difficult to get an above-ground blood moon horde-proof base by day 7 let alone an underground version. So if you are playing solo, you must take that into consideration as you plan how you proceed. Playing this game as coop eliminates many of the restrictions that are placed on solo players. Playing with even one other person, you can easily have an above-ground blood moon horde-proof base by day7 and an underground version possibly by day 14 but definitely by day 21. Add a third person and we are horde-proof above and below ground by day 14. Playing solo is a serious handicap and maybe this is where the angst is coming from. However, I cannot imagine a way that removes some of impediments from playing solo that doesn’t, at the same time, make the coop game much easier & therefore possibly more boring. Underground bases are definitely possible, it just takes a bit longer than it has in other alphas especially if you are solo. I know my post offers no solution....that hopefully comes from someone’s else’s brilliant mind. However I wholeheartedly disagree that underground horde bases are impossible, just takes more work and more time.

[JaxTeller718]

Opinion: People crying over tough and tedious gameplay that can be solved 100% by spending some time developing their character first is ridiculous and I pray the devs don't take their complaints seriously.

 

You misspelt "Fact"

[Lanadon Conners]

Fact: Alpha 18 will be eventually released

 

Opinion: Folks will still believe that it still doesn't conform to their ideas and opinions of a Zombie Survival sandbox game and spend time here on the forums instead of actually playing.

[Roland]

However, I cannot imagine a way that removes some of impediments from playing solo that doesn’t, at the same time, make the coop game much easier & therefore possibly more boring.

 

Player Option: Scavenger or Adventurer difficulty

Player Option: Increased Player vs block damage percentage

Player Option: Decreased Zombie vs block damage percentage

Player Option: Decreased Zombie Max Alive per Player

Player Option: Decreased Frequency of Blood Moon or disabled

Player Option: Decreased Zombie movement speed

Player Option: Increased Day timer

 

Not so much a matter of imagination as it is a matter of choosing the options provided until the game plays the way a solo player needs it to play. I know suggesting to turn down difficulty dials is even a greater assault upon gamer ego than suggesting that a gameplay mistake is being made but I'll tag this post to make it all better.

 

 

 

#myopinion

[RestInPieces]

Player Option: Scavenger or Adventurer difficulty

Player Option: Increased Player vs block damage percentage

Player Option: Decreased Zombie vs block damage percentage

Player Option: Decreased Zombie Max Alive per Player

Player Option: Decreased Frequency of Blood Moon or disabled

Player Option: Decreased Zombie movement speed

Player Option: Increased Day timer

 

Not so much a matter of imagination as it is a matter of choosing the options provided until the game plays the way a solo player needs it to play. I know suggesting to turn down difficulty dials is even a greater assault upon gamer ego than suggesting that a gameplay mistake is being made but I'll tag with post to make it all better.

 

 

 

#myopinion

 

Since you mentioned it, now that they added a more scalable speed option, it would really be great if zombies with a max speed setting could reach and damage players or even vehicles as well. And it would be even better if they could tweak it before A18.

[Prisma501]

Since you mentioned it, now that they added a more scalable speed option, it would really be great if zombies with a max speed setting could reach and damage players or even vehicles as well. And it would be even better if they could tweak it before A18.

 

Run! B4 the immuuurshion police comes and get ya. Run now!

 

Cheers

[RestInPieces]

Run! B4 the immuuurshion police comes and get ya. Run now!

 

Cheers

 

But I am a member of the immersion police, like comrade Roland (he is mostly undercover), it's just that I also take part in the wantmeaningfulgameplay movement

[Roland]

Since you mentioned it, now that they added a more scalable speed option, it would really be great if zombies with a max speed setting could reach and damage players or even vehicles as well. And it would be even better if they could tweak it before A18.

 

+1

 

I hate being so much faster than the enemies regardless of speed setting.

[Poojam]

Opinion: People crying over tough and tedious gameplay that can be solved 100% by spending some time developing their character first is ridiculous and I pray the devs don't take their complaints seriously.

 

No. We get it. We just don't find slowing the character progession down and upping the grind to be interesting or fun gameplay design decisions.

 

There are ~half as many people playing now 2 months after release and the steam reviews have turned to crap (55% approval rating from over 70%). I've yet to see any meaningful reversal on these types of things and only half measure compromises. At least they put the ability to have more than one LCB's back in, sort of. Now I'm at the whim of the server owner's idea of fun.

[Star69]

Player Option: Scavenger or Adventurer difficulty

Player Option: Increased Player vs block damage percentage

Player Option: Decreased Zombie vs block damage percentage

Player Option: Decreased Zombie Max Alive per Player

Player Option: Decreased Frequency of Blood Moon or disabled

Player Option: Decreased Zombie movement speed

Player Option: Increased Day timer

 

Not so much a matter of imagination as it is a matter of choosing the options provided until the game plays the way a solo player needs it to play. I know suggesting to turn down difficulty dials is even a greater assault upon gamer ego than suggesting that a gameplay mistake is being made but I'll tag this post to make it all better.

 

 

 

#myopinion

 

Oh now you did it! I was trying not to mention the dreaded “editing xml” that seems to scare some people. More, I was referring to those wanting the vanilla game to change to fix this ‘problem’. I mean, why change the base game when it would have far reaching effects when a simple, and I mean really simple, edit fixes the problem? I do less editing & just adjust to the changes...not a big deal, makes the game more interesting. However saying something is a broken game mechanic that ruins underground bases is wrong....you must change either how you make or change the settings....easy peasy.

[Cirion]

If you are solo, it’s quite difficult to get an above-ground blood moon horde-proof base by day 7 let alone an underground version.

 

Not really. Especially easy with default settings. Even on insane, the first blood moon is very easy, at least if the blood moon is set to only x8 enemies and you haven't power-leveled hardcore the whole week. All you need is like a simple 5x5 maybe even as small as 3x3 bunker surrounded by spikes, they can even just be wood spikes. Done.

 

However I wholeheartedly disagree that underground horde bases are impossible, just takes more work and more time.

 

Never said it was impossible. I am saying there is a severe imbalance between cost vs. reward.

 

Not so much a matter of imagination as it is a matter of choosing the options provided until the game plays the way a solo player needs it to play. I know suggesting to turn down difficulty dials is even a greater assault upon gamer ego than suggesting that a gameplay mistake is being made but I'll tag this post to make it all better.

 

That doesn't address fundamental AI problems like the one I have a major problem with. There is no dial or option for this as it is a hard coded functionality of the game.

[Roland]

No. We get it. We just don't find slowing the character progession down and upping the grind to be interesting or fun gameplay design decisions.

 

Player Option: Xp Multiplier 200%

Player Option: Player Block Damage 200%

 

There are ~half as many people playing now 2 months after release

 

Same as every alpha release before.

 

and the steam reviews have turned to crap (55% approval rating from over 70%).

 

RWG and performance. I don't see the reviews changing until those two issues are fixed and they are working on those as quickly as possible.

 

I've yet to see any meaningful reversal on these types of things and only half measure compromises.

 

A17.2 is still unreleased publicly but as soon as it is then many meaningful changes via the options menu will be in place. If you are looking for complete reversals and can't even be cool with compromises then you have unrealistic expectations. What complete reversals were you expecting?

 

At least they put the ability to have more than one LCB's back in, sort of. Now I'm at the whim of the server owner's idea of fun.

 

But you claimed the majority want multiple LCBs so no problem right? I'm sure most server owners will whim the way you want it if you are correct. (I believe you are)

[Ranzera]

Same as every alpha release before.

 

I don't know about that. Average players is on track to take the biggest nose dive in the history of the game during the shortest month of the year. Percentage loss doesn't look like it'll quite overtake all time high but it'll be close. Let's not forget this is an alpha that pulled less interest than A16 at its onset, which a break from norms in itself.

 

But sure, accept only the feedback you want to hear. I'm sure that'll work out great.

[Roland]

I don't know about that. Average players is on track to take the biggest nose dive in the history of the game during the shortest month of the year. Percentage loss doesn't look like it'll quite overtake all time high but it'll be close. Let's not forget this is an alpha that pulled less interest than A16 at its onset.

 

But sure, accept only the feedback you want to hear. I'm sure that'll work out great.

 

We'll see. I'm open to the possibility I'm wrong. Everyone around here is interpreting the graphs and numbers the way they want. I'm hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. It is a bit sad that some around here seem poised to be gleefully smug in the failure of TFP. If A17.2 releases before the end of the month to the public and people return and try it out and love increasing their progression speed and having random horde nights it could rally but maybe it won't. Maybe there will be a spike when RWG is fixed and generating pleasing maps again.

 

Time will tell but I feel good about where my hope is placed even if it ends up being dashed.

[Ranzera]

We'll see. I'm open to the possibility I'm wrong. Everyone around here is interpreting the graphs and numbers the way they want. I'm hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. It is a bit sad that some around here seem poised to be gleefully smug in the failure of TFP. If A17.2 releases before the end of the month to the public and people return and try it out and love increasing their progression speed and having random horde nights it could rally but maybe it won't. Maybe there will be a spike when RWG is fixed and generating pleasing maps again.

 

Time will tell but I feel good about where my hope is placed even if it ends up being dashed.

 

I did notice an increase in the slide when 17.2 experimental released. It's plausible the RWG snafu temporarily sent more people away. Maybe they'll return if it gets fixed.

 

If I'm being real though, that's only a small part of the picture. The real problem with A17 is wholistic. The game has been simplified to the point that nothing feels random or rewarding anymore. Progression has become a tedious grind to the tune of 52,500,000 exp. And base design has finally begun feeling like an arms race, not against the zeds, but against the devs. Everything about it is exhausting and it shows in the numbers.

[OzHawkeye]

I did notice an increase in the slide when 17.2 experimental released. It's plausible the RWG snafu temporarily sent more people away. Maybe they'll return if it gets fixed.

 

If I'm being real though, that's only a small part of the picture. The real problem with A17 is wholistic. The game has been simplified to the point that nothing feels random or rewarding anymore. Progression has become a tedious grind to the tune of 52,500,000 exp. And base design has finally begun feeling like an arms race, not against the zeds, but against the devs. Everything about it is exhausting and it shows in the numbers.

 

You don't know it's a small part of the picture, indeed, none of us do. I played A17.0 a fair bit to test it out, then stopped due to RWG and haven't played it since. Once RWG is fixed, I'll put down my other steam games and try it out - but I have no idea whether there's other people like me, or if there are, how many of us there are.

 

All I know, is that, having tried Navazgane on 17.0, I know that for me personally, I can't play a static map whose contents I know in advance (nor one that is mostly radio towers either.. hehe).

[Ranzera]

You don't know it's a small part of the picture, indeed, none of us do. I played A17.0 a fair bit to test it out, then stopped due to RWG and haven't played it since. Once RWG is fixed, I'll put down my other steam games and try it out - but I have no idea whether there's other people like me, or if there are, how many of us there are.

 

All I know, is that, having tried Navazgane on 17.0, I know that for me personally, I can't play a static map whose contents I know in advance (nor one that is mostly radio towers either.. hehe).

 

Objectively, RWG is a small piece of 7DtD. There are a great many interacting systems in this game and the RWG is but one.

[Cirion]

Objectively, RWG is a small piece of 7DtD. There are a great many interacting systems in this game and the RWG is but one.

 

Not for me. I was rather addicted to A16.4 RWG. Every new game felt pretty unique and interesting to me. I don't get that feeling from A17. To be sure, RWG isn't the most important aspect to some players, but to me it kinda is.