Some A17 thoughts

[crazyduck]

To say the devs are lying about making this game mod friendly because your most desired change hasn’t happened yet is ridiculous. “Priorities” doesn’t mean they won’t do it. It means that they’ll do it when they get to it. How do you know it is a simple thing?

 

Also it sounds like you can mod it to how you like but just can’t push the descriptions from server to client? Couldn’t you make the files downloadable to those who wish to join your server?

 

Sure i could make a modified Localization file and tell people to download it and overwrite the vanilla One in the Data Directory.

to be honest that makes not that much sense. If a game is mod friendly push files from server to client then it shoudl share every modded file as long as its not a dll file which could be a risk for the players.

 

If the pimps would add a option to add own localization files to mod folder it would again be much easier so this file i pushed to the clients.

 

Currently you can only have items with no description or tell players who join your server to first go and download the icons then go and download the localization file and explain them to unpack the itemicons into mod folder and the localization file into the data directory of the game and after that you can be sure with each update the pimps release and change anything like adding new blocks removing blocks or descriptions the player must download again and overwrite again.

 

Its not userfriendly and we are not talking about some sort of very big changes to the game. Also you say my most desired change , if i use google i find many threads people complain about this issue or ask for a solution so it seems its not only my desired change.

 

And you ask how i know its a simple thing?True i dont know the Code of this game, but i dont think the Pimps write garbage code with no Structure and only dirty Workarounds. So adding something like a check if a item or block has a line called something like property Itemdesc or Blockdesc or whatever and if this line is present it use the text inside " " for the description is should be not hard to add.

 

if it is would be nice if you or one of the devs could drop me a message why it is such a big problem or so much work to add such a normal simple function like that to the current game.

 

And the lying part was not meant that i say they are lying. It was meant that if a dev tell me to mod the game to revert the stuff i dont like in alpha 17 but at same time not offering me the options to mod it or to mod it in a way to share it in a userfriendly way and then a mod tell sme it has no prioritie it sounds like they are not doing it. Thats how i did understnad your no prioritie comment if its not meant like that ok then i misunderstood you .

[HerrKingsley]

That is a good point. In this game we largely create the story ourselves and this is how I largely play by creating a story of living during a zombie apocalypse and I DONT notice the level gates very much at all.

 

The original trailer for the game talked about learning the story through found notes. So I’m not sure how involved of a canned story line there will actually be.

 

And that's what I personally having problems with. I want to roleplay a character in a world not roleplay the machanics like:

Roleplay that I found a recipe for bacon and eggs and then add a point..

Roleplay that I figured how to build a forge and then add a point..

Roleplay that I have practiced archery and then add a point.

 

If I had to do quests to get the last missing piece of the forge or buy it from a trader. I would be fine with it. Even though I prefer learning by doing.

[HerrKingsley]

Just started playing A17. On day 4 or so...

I've been treating Game Stage like the heat map, something that attracts zombies. XP is something that is both good and bad, and so I just focus on surviving (and looting for resources) instead of grinding for levels. So far it's been a relaxed, almost fun experience.

(Not to say I have anything against a frantic yet horrifying slog through death, decay and destruction.)

 

Thing with heat maps is you can reduce it without any penalties if you feel it's getting too tough for you. Gamestage you have to die multiple times to reduce and then your stuck with the death buff.

 

Therefore areas with high tire enemies and loot would be nice.

[madmole]

I am so tired of you saying this. No one cares that you don't use explosive bolts or anything else that requires bulk duct tape. However, they are in the game and you will not have enough if you use them. So no, it is a "biggy". Why are you being so hard headed about this? Over 3/4 of recipes require duct tape. You are wrong about there being enough bones. Period.

 

Your personal vendetta against steel is equally disturbing. You have taken it to a level beyond hubris by having recipes that require gobs of steel 30 levels before the player can even make it.

 

I changed the recipe to 1 bone for 1 glue, so 2x the glue now. BTW, traders sell glue and duct tape. I can up the quantities they have pretty easy. Most of the recipes that need a lot of steel are huge game changing recipes you should not be able to spam craft, like high end vehicles. Ever play ark? An ascendant sniper rifle costs me like 2500 metal lol. We'll never be 10% as grindy as Ark.

[madmole]

As you might have noticed in my post, I said forget food and other items. But bones ARE there. Can't really hide them, you know. Holding the whole walking corpse together.

 

About coming out alive, thats not the problem, really, it is actually less troublesome to lead zeds away from your base and leave them /kill for the exp at day.

 

Facing zeds at your base is counter-productive. You dont get loot from them. You dont get xp when traps kill them. You have to repair/resupply those traps. All the disadvantages and no advantage at all. What is the incentive again?

 

Before, in a16. There were multiple motivations to face zeds at your base.

 

*It was safer and good build base could survive bloodmoon with minimal attention. 10 mins and you repaired it back like it was before. Now you would need hours to recover all you lost.

 

*You get loot from the zeds, that wasnt all that awful, especially from late game zeds, like military.

 

*you can resupply your glue storage with the bones.

 

*You level up your weapon skill. I often faced bloodmoons with weapons Im bad at. Pistols for example, to level them.

 

Now you removed all the reasons to face the wave. Why would I? What is the incentive for the player? Danger is not the answer, since there is none. You made zeds better at destroying bases. Not better at killing the player.

 

About duplication and carving 200 corpses, as was mentioned in my post, why not add 100 bones to every rare bag? Auto assuming, that you would have carved up all those corpses. Win win for both sides, I say.

You have some points, but isn't designing base you can survive in the reason you bought this game, not to be a bone farmer? I get really pissed and want to punch something if I die in any game so for me surviving is everything. There is XP to gain, I leveled up 3 times on the day 7 horde, so there is that motivation which is no different than skilling up your pistol in a16. We are going to increase the chance for loot drops a little.

 

At the end of the day we want everyone to enjoy the game. Its not taylored for the builders yet so that is something we're working on. I'm building a mega castle so we'll see how hard it is and make adjustments as needed. Playing as a rogue scavenger who uses mostly melee is working well but other play styles need some love for sure.

 

Everyone has different things they like or ways to play. For you its a reward, for me its not dying because I take pride in 0 deaths, and building a nice castle I know has so many fall back rooms that no matter what horde comes I'm not goind gown. I have my escape hatch and coffee maybe a vehicle ready to run as long as it takes. Preparation and plans pay off usually.

[Aldranon]

Just started playing A17. On day 4 or so...

I've been treating Game Stage like the heat map, something that attracts zombies. XP is something that is both good and bad, and so I just focus on surviving (and looting for resources) instead of grinding for levels. So far it's been a relaxed, almost fun experience.

(Not to say I have anything against a frantic yet horrifying slog through death, decay and destruction.)

 

A17 Gamestage is a lot like a donkey chasing the "Carrot on a stick" that can slowly get further away.

 

1) The faster you level the faster GS rises (plus days alive)

If you level too slow, GS will grow faster than your potential strength because of Days Alive in the GS formula.

 

2) Potential Strength is from useful loot and strong perks and what will keep the player alive in the long run.

Useful loot is mostly found in well guarded POI's. Leaving players that don't attack POI's falling behind to the point of needing them to die to reset the imbalance.

[madmole]

The poll I'm referring to is of course the "poll" posted by your moderator Roland. This poll is the only thing that we have that indicates what the majority of players want/don't want, but you keep using the 'most players' phrase as if they agree with you and the direction that A17 has gone. The poll says otherwise.

 

Just because someone, and in fact, as the poll suggests, most of us, disagree does not mean we are "whiners", or ''biased''.

 

Our forums are composed of mostly hardcore veterans who are vocal. The average player is not hardcore nor vocal. Anyhow we love all you guys input and are working hard to make as many people happy as possible.

 

Here's what I just checked in:

+Changed: Glue requires only 1 bone now instead of 2. (Joel)

+Added: Traders now sell glue (Joel)

+Changed: Reduced price of glue it was more expensive than duct tape (Joel)

 

There's already a beefy list of tweaks. Everyone is biased and need to give A17 a chance, and each patch a chance. We'll get it tuned in. The stamina system is a great example of something misunderstood that isn't punishing at all. Like most people didn't know sexual trex reduces mining stamina use, not just melee stamina use.

[JoelleEmmily]

The part you are not factoring in is balance. If they add in non-trivial options that change the progression of the game and make them official options then they are obligated to make sure those options play correctly.

 

Now is still not the time to add in such options just because players want to play it differently. Having to re-calibrate each option as development continues would take up time better spent elsewhere.

 

I don’t think anything is wrong with a rich selection of options and hope to see it eventually.

 

Please explain what is being balanced, and how an imbalance of that would impact game play to a negative degree... and how it is not arbitrary... Wait... never mind... I get it... no argument I put forward maters, no example I give will be sufficient... this is not a discussion, it is you telling me what you think... full stop. I'mma gonna try force of nature now... I really should look at my inventory more often.

[madmole]

A lot of my problems with this alpha are things that got removed. Can I mod the plains biome back in? I'm doubtful. Can I mod gore blocks back in? Maybe. Can I enjoy these on multiplayer mods on multiplayer? Almost certainly no.

 

All the plains biome did was increase RAM requirements. By nuking those few trees and the special grounds of the two uneeded biomes memory went from 5.8 gb to 2.8. That biome had nothing interesting in it, and too many biome transitions makes random gen a mess.

[fazi]

A17 Gamestage is a lot like a donkey chasing the "Carrot on a stick" that can slowly get further away.

 

1) The faster you level the faster GS rises (plus days alive)

If you level too slow, GS will grow faster than your potential strength because of Days Alive in the GS formula.

 

2) Potential Strength is from useful loot and strong perks and what will keep the player alive in the long run.

Useful loot is mostly found in well guarded POI's. Leaving players that don't attack POI's falling behind to the point of needing them to die to reset the imbalance.

 

useful loot has to be hard to get, so you have satisfaction and motivation.There is nothing forcing you to lvl, maybe the need of a forge and bike, after that you can stop and build and lvl slower.Game stage is really needed, in A16 i used to loot the skyscrapers in my first days with a bow and a club and get almost everything i needed.This game needs challenge and things to do, there is no point in having a big RWG map in there is no need to explore it, or the possibility to play for 1000 days if you have everything by day 28...

[madmole]

67% of the steam reviews since A17 stable dropped are negative. I want people to buy and play the game, so I can play with them on multiplayer servers and enjoy their creations. So I need people to like this version, which means I need to convince TFP to make it less bad.

 

edit - Min/Maxing is just about the dumbest thing I've heard. It falls right in line with Madmole's thinking. You both are missing the point. If you can get valuable rewards by min/maxing, then you've already lost the argument.

 

Historically every time we come out of experimental review scores plummet.

Historically every time we go on sale, the review scores plummet.

Historically every time we have big changes the review scores plummet.

Historically every time we have mac and linux problems the review scores plummet.

 

Historically TFP always made it right and review scores rise after patch 3. Relax, theres 23,000 players online right now, 2-3x more than a six weeks ago.

[madmole]

Why bother having different types of zombies, if they don't drop anything of value at a meaningful rate? Used to be a thing to hunt for nurse zombies when you were infected, because of the chance to drop a pill or if you were having a hard time getting a beaker. Same is true for a lot of the classes/higher tier zombies. Now, what's the point?

 

I saw your other post where you talked about how it's all temporary until Bandits come, and they will drop reliably. If that's the case, then just change the % drop rate to 33% and nerf it back to hell when you get bandits in with A18. For the next year, we'll still have a reason to kill zombies.

 

You didn't hunt for it, you sat in your base and the spikes killed everything and you profited without any risk. Now you want meds go find a med store or raid medicine cabinets, or find a trader. Very few people liked looting 200 corpses after a horde night. Now when they drop, its something pretty great. Much better than collecting trash loot 200 times.

[madmole]

Makes sense. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but even in A16 I didn't just sit in my base and let the zombies bring me everything. There were things I needed, and while I enjoy being self-sufficient (big fan of Swiss Family Robinson, Mystery Island, etc), it never occurred to me to just live off of the horde. Maybe I just wasn't clever enough at taking advantage of the game, but I actually did feel the need to go looting and trading, or I was going without. Special delivery of questionable quality or content every 7th day I happened to be on was great, but it didn't amount to that much in the grand scheme of things--most of the good quality items I had were acquired through looting or trading.

 

On the subject of the danger of the virus, that also makes good sense. It doesn't totally jive with the fact that I've just slaughtered the horde in and around my base by any means possible without risk of a plague setting in. Am I good as long as I'm not up to my elbows in them, in this line of thought? I'd say you're absolutely right with regard to exposure to the virus, but this idea actually doesn't show up in your game except as a justification for not being able to harvest corpses in this thread... (would be better if it did, IMO, since I agree with you)

 

To anyone else poo-pooing the idea of finding usable loot on a zombie, let me just say that in my mind it's best hashed out as a matter of frequency and quality. I'm certainly not suggesting that we need MORE loot than was dropped in A16. I feel it's been adjusted to a bit of an extreme in the other direction, and I don't think it was totally necessary.

Which is why we're still balancing. At Christmas as a kid were you super excited for that one awesome gift Santa was bringing? For me it was, all the other little gifts were ok but didn't mean squat to me compared to getting that one big meaty gift. This is how zombie loot is supposed to be now, rare but kickass, instead of just more clutter and junk.

[Guppycur]

I don't disagree that the loot dropped IS better, but it's fracking weird killing a miner and his hat isn't in the loot... Or a cop, farmer, nurse... These variants used to mean something.

[madmole]

Your point was that 7 Days to Die doesn’t need level gates. The problem is that level gates are not a foreign concept to most classic RPGs. This game is a survival game but it is also an RPG and tower defense all in a voxel world— so mining and building.

 

Sandbox.....is going to have to be it’s own mode since that concept clashes with a formalized game with rules and restrictions. Creative mode is the sandbox mode pure and simple.

 

Now you named a whole slew of games that are survival but not rpg’s that don’t use gating of some sort to save better powers for higher leveled characters. 7 Days to Die is survival and rpg so delaying powers to be awarded as achievements for reaching milestones we’ll call levels is very very common.

 

I’m not arguing for level gates please know. I just want the conversation to be honest and this game does share genre elements with other games (electronic and pen and paper) that decidedly do Gate.

The problem with book gates is that it completely removes major portions of the game that everyone should see and experience if they want. I played long games where I didn't get a minibike book and it was frustrating. The new perk system solves that and so many other problems with progression. You are gated by stuff in every game. Either a level you can't beat, or some money to buy an upgrade to your race car, bullets needed to shoot stuff, some action needed to perform.

 

Ark is level gated because you need to gain levels to buy engrams. Skyrim and fallout two of the best selling franchises of all times are level gated. Do you think the 1 billion players hated that?

 

The reason we put in level gates was because teams of guys were hitting INT 10 by day 3. Its an edge case, but generally speaking stuff you have to wait for is more appreciated. I don't think the wait is long, I got my forge on day 5, bicycle on day 8, minibike on day 13. Thats less than 13 hours. Not a big deal when your having fun.

[madmole]

You and I agree on a lot, but this we don't. Building is terrible now that it takes zero thought and design to come up with an efficient base. I know, everyone will come with the blah blah stand on box in A16. Still, in A16 there was surface deposits of all resources to make bullets (except brass, but that's not needed for shotgun turrets). Atleast in A16 we leveled at a decent pace when getting the resources together, and building actually leveled us as well. Also, not every design in A16 had to have either a funnel or staircase to dropoff.

 

We're increasing passive xp and I've never used any chese exploits on my bases. Just a box with railings to walk on and a lot of spikes. We plan on making zombies attack in a circle I think, so not all will go up the cheese ramps, just some. This should make attacks more interesting and cheese methods won't be guaranteed.

[Poojam]

You didn't hunt for it, you sat in your base and the spikes killed everything and you profited without any risk. Now you want meds go find a med store or raid medicine cabinets, or find a trader. Very few people liked looting 200 corpses after a horde night. Now when they drop, its something pretty great. Much better than collecting trash loot 200 times.

 

Yes, I most certainly did hunt for them. The same as I hunted for military zombies to get military gear. Business zombies for valuable clothing and radiated gear from the little orange ones. Never did find a stripper zombie to drop me a dirty g-string, but I kept trying.

 

I didn't mind cleaning them up. I'd be totally supportive of eliminating the absolute trash (broken glass, nails, $3, can of dog food, paper) from the zombie loot tables and reducing the drop rate to 20-25% though. That way it's much less a chore, and there is still a reason to kill them aside from XP. Porque no los dos?

 

edit - And btw, this is a tower defense game. One method of survival is to build a bad ass zombie killing base, sit back and relax, and let your hard work do the killing for you. Why is that bad? When people are complaining about how TFP have wrecked the value for building a base and playing a good defense to survive, this is specifically what they're talking about.

[HerrKingsley]

I don't disagree that the loot dropped IS better, but it's fracking weird killing a miner and his hat isn't in the loot... Or a cop, farmer, nurse... These variants used to mean something.

 

Totally agree with this.

Can we get generic zombies with random color on hair and clothes. And a few special zombies connected to specific POI's

[Poojam]

Totally agree with this.

Can we get generic zombies with random color on hair and clothes. And a few special zombies connected to specific POI's

 

There's no point to having different models if they all drop essentially nothing.

[HungryZombie]

I don't disagree that the loot dropped IS better, but it's fracking weird killing a miner and his hat isn't in the loot... Or a cop, farmer, nurse... These variants used to mean something.

 

Is it that weird though? I mean you got his helmet but what about his cool utility vest or his tool belt? Most zombies have clothes we can visibly see but can't take. Home come only a small percentage of the time you could take his helmet? What about the other times the zombie didn't drop one?

 

Is it really strange to you or just something you were used to and having trouble adapting to?

[HerrKingsley]

There's no point to having different models if they all drop essentially nothing.

 

Exactly my point. Diffrent models would only be esthetic in special pois like hospitals and construction sites.

[Poojam]

The problem with book gates is that it completely removes major portions of the game that everyone should see and experience if they want. I played long games where I didn't get a minibike book and it was frustrating. The new perk system solves that and so many other problems with progression. You are gated by stuff in every game. Either a level you can't beat, or some money to buy an upgrade to your race car, bullets needed to shoot stuff, some action needed to perform.

 

Ark is level gated because you need to gain levels to buy engrams. Skyrim and fallout two of the best selling franchises of all times are level gated. Do you think the 1 billion players hated that?

 

The reason we put in level gates was because teams of guys were hitting INT 10 by day 3. Its an edge case, but generally speaking stuff you have to wait for is more appreciated. I don't think the wait is long, I got my forge on day 5, bicycle on day 8, minibike on day 13. Thats less than 13 hours. Not a big deal when your having fun.

 

Having everything be awarded to you by leveling gutted most of the incentive to explore, scavenge, and loot things. Why bother? I can sit outside of one POI, kill the zombie spawns over and over and over, and unlock everything in the entire game eventually with this new system?

[Reth]

[...]Ark is level gated because you need to gain levels to buy engrams. Skyrim and fallout two of the best selling franchises of all times are level gated. Do you think the 1 billion players hated that? [...]

No, they didn't. Because level 1 character in Fallout and Skyrim can do great many things without stopping for stamina every 10 seconds. Make the game fun at level 1 and all your problems will go away.

 

For example, I don't know why you think that swinging an axe twice and then waiting ten seconds is fun, but I assure you, it's not. Reduce the stamina usage for everything by 50% right now and start balancing from there.

 

People dislike gates in A17 not because they just hate the whole concept, but because there so very little to do until you open some of those gates. You want to gate iron tools - fine, but make stone tools usable.

 

And one other thing - add a "Respec" button, at least for the alpha versions. It's tough to figure out how useful some of those perks are, especially since some may be broken atm.

[HungryZombie]

Yes, I most certainly did hunt for them. The same as I hunted for military zombies to get military gear. Business zombies for valuable clothing and radiated gear from the little orange ones. Never did find a stripper zombie to drop me a dirty g-string, but I kept trying.

 

I didn't mind cleaning them up. I'd be totally supportive of eliminating the absolute trash (broken glass, nails, $3, can of dog food, paper) from the zombie loot tables and reducing the drop rate to 20-25% though. That way it's much less a chore, and there is still a reason to kill them aside from XP. Porque no los dos?

 

edit - And btw, this is a tower defense game. One method of survival is to build a bad ass zombie killing base, sit back and relax, and let your hard work do the killing for you. Why is that bad? When people are complaining about how TFP have wrecked the value for building a base and playing a good defense to survive, this is specifically what they're talking about.

 

Is this a tower defense game though? One thing I see as a common thread among complaints on A17 is everyone thinks this is a different game. "X doesn't belong in a survival game!", "X doesn't belong in a building game!", "Why is this becoming like an RPG?", "Why is this becoming like a shooter game?"

 

While the game is listed as a "Zombie horde survival crafting building tower defense RPG game" (not an exact quote) which says to me this is supposed to have elements of all these kinds of games (Quite ambitious!) This games going to be not exactly like any one type of those games and it's hard to make a statement about what should or should not be in the game because of this.

 

TFP might need to do a bit better about setting peoples expectations of what this game is. Might quiet down some of the uproar. Probably not though.

[toores]

Madmole, can you tune down the visual effects of wasteland and burnt biome?

Too much fog and too much tint. They look horrible and ATM you want to avoid them. Crossing between biomes is pretty annoying also because of it.

 

In FO3 it was one of the must-have mods to remove the green tint.