Some A17 thoughts

[Exxodous]

 

We should mod the things that we want to enhance or accentuate , not mod out because they simply suck by design.

 

Again, what you find "sucks by design" may not match my opinion of the design. Your opinion is of course just as valid as mine, but the question is whom do they make "happy" because it's obvious if our opinions or playstyles differ we both can't be happy, can we?

[PoppaTot]

With the addition of traders quests, they could install stop gaps if RNGesus is being spiteful.

Player hits a certain level.

A quest popup notifies you that the trader has a new quest that they need your assistance on.

Here's a list of possible rewards you can select from if you accept it..

• "Forge Ahead" book
  
• "Calipers"
  
• "mini bike for dummies"
  
• etc,.
  

 

Sounds like a great idea to me. I feel like those of us that don't like the A17 change are just beating the proverbial dead horse at this time. Madmole has already said in numerous threads (paraphrasing) to get over it, TFP will not revert to books or learn by doing, ect.

[Exxodous]

With the addition of traders quests, they could install stop gaps if RNGesus is being spiteful.

Player hits a certain level.

A quest popup notifies you that the trader has a new quest that they need your assistance on.

Here's a list of possible rewards you can select from if you accept it..

• "Forge Ahead" book
  
• "Calipers"
  
• "mini bike for dummies"
  
• etc,.
  

 

Not a bad idea at all Tin. My guess is some will still see it as a level gate of sorts but interesting mechanic nonetheless.

[JoelleEmmily]

Again it's a matter of preference isn't it? There is no way for TFP to meet everyone's preference on every game mechanic or structure.

 

This is a completely false statement, and I suspect you're using it as your goto strawman. The Fun Pimps can absolutely satisfy everyone, even if a person do not know how to mod. Ark has sliders, check boxes, and all the way back in the days of tetris, games had modes... But you keep pushing the narrative that if you don't like it, mod it, or play creative, and looking back on your comments, you present no nuance... just one message, repeated ad infinitum... do what I do...

[HerrKingsley]

Again it's a matter of preference isn't it? There is no way for TFP to meet everyone's preference on every game mechanic or structure. But they have allowed us the ability to mod almost every preference, guess that's why I enjoy the game so much. What I don't like I mod, what can't be modded I find ways to adapt and accept the challenge.

 

To some degree. If a system is presented that is achieving the goal better than the way I prefer it I'll accept it gladly. Like a16. I enjoy grinding and had no problem with spam crafting. But a16.4 handled progression better than a15.

 

Ability to mod is hands down the best feature this game has!

[Roland]

What is your definition of an RPG? Or rather, your gold standard? Is it Fallout? Than I would say 7 Days is about on par... but is it Final Fantasy? It's been a looooooooong time since I played FF1, but I don't remember level gates. Yes, there was fire1, fire2, and so on, but you got access to those if you had the gold, and reach the area, AND the monsters progressed with you. The only "gate," was "Evolving," or whatever they called it, from your childish form, to your adult form... then you could use the second half of the spells and armour. Vampire the Masquerade? Yes, the game had a point system, but no level lockouts... You could literally dump every point you have into mental and knowledge, or you could max out talents like intimidate and stealth... and the pen a paper version? It was up to the dungeon master what he wanted to do... and if he tried to level gate someone, he'd be getting his soda poured down his pants.

 

I can’t tell if you are joking or not...

 

1) The original concept/ elevator pitch for this game was Minecraft meets Fallout meets The Walking Dead. Maybe making you aware of this is all that is necessary.

 

2) Skipping over dozens of Final Fantasy sequels to go back to the one you sort of remember? I have many clear memories of several FF games where I needed to wait to level up before getting the next power or ability. FF has used different innovative ways to reinvent progression trees but they were still trees-meaning you had to wait for the most powerful abilities.

 

3) I’m not saying there aren’t examples of games that don’t use level gates but I’m not going to cherry pick to try and prove one way of doing it is the best. Both methods are legit and can be used for progression. Both methods are preferred by different players.

 

I’ve seen posts for and against the current system vs the previous system.

[Tin]

Sounds like a great idea to me. I feel like those of us that don't like the A17 change are just beating the proverbial dead horse at this time. Madmole has already said in numerous threads (paraphrasing) to get over it, TFP will not revert to books or learn by doing, ect.

I neither hate, nor like, the perk system. It doesn't bother me all that much. Still think the perks need to be fleshed out more.

 

*If I had it my way*

A starting player should be able to feel like they can reach "end-game", without needing to use perks. Perks should be nothing more than accents that the player can get, but not a need. Right now, some perks "feel like" they are needed in order get to the point, that the character is halfway capable.

 

Not a bad idea at all Tin. My guess is some will still see it as a level gate of sorts but interesting mechanic nonetheless.

I wouldn't really call it a level gate, since the quest itself wouldn't really be a 'need', but more a 'want' to accomplish. You could still choose to allow rng to dictate your playing in finding certain items, or You can accept the quest since your luck isn't turning out well.

[HerrKingsley]

<snip for space>

 

Aren't these games you are referring to mainly story based?

I wound think that's why the gates arent as obvious for the player. And why it works so well in these games.

 

About that. What's the plan for the storyline or the lore in 7dtd?

[Exxodous]

This is a completely false statement, and I suspect you're using it as your goto strawman. The Fun Pimps can absolutely satisfy everyone, even if a person do not know how to mod. Ark has sliders, check boxes, and all the way back in the days of tetris, games had modes... But you keep pushing the narrative that if you don't like it, mod it, or play creative, and looking back on your comments, you present no nuance... just one message, repeated ad infinitum... do what I do...

 

Played Ark and hated it = not happy/satisfied = true statement

 

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all of the time” (John Lydgate)

[Roland]

This is a completely false statement, and I suspect you're using it as your goto strawman. The Fun Pimps can absolutely satisfy everyone, even if a person do not know how to mod. Ark has sliders, check boxes, and all the way back in the days of tetris, games had modes... But you keep pushing the narrative that if you don't like it, mod it, or play creative, and looking back on your comments, you present no nuance... just one message, repeated ad infinitum... do what I do...

 

Sliders for zombie run speed is one thing. Sliders for completely changing the progression system is another.

[JoelleEmmily]

I can’t tell if you are joking or not...

 

1) The original concept/ elevator pitch for this game was Minecraft meets Fallout meets The Walking Dead. Maybe making you aware of this is all that is necessary.

 

2) Skipping over dozens of Final Fantasy sequels to go back to the one you sort of remember? I have many clear memories of several FF games where I needed to wait to level up before getting the next power or ability. FF has used different innovative ways to reinvent progression trees but they were still trees-meaning you had to wait for the most powerful abilities.

 

3) I’m not saying there aren’t examples of games that don’t use level gates but I’m not going to cherry pick to try and prove one way of doing it is the best. Both methods are legit and can be used for progression. Both methods are preferred by different players.

 

I’ve seen posts for and against the current system vs the previous system.

 

I am not joking... but nor am I saying it should be done one way or the other because of X, all I've done is give examples of "RPGs" where such mechanics are not used... You were the one who said, "Now you named a whole slew of games that are survival but not rpg’s that don’t use gating of some sort to save better powers for higher levelled characters." I then countered your argument with one of my own using examples... But you accuse me of chary picking? Yet choose to point out Final Fantasy as your example of how my argument is ill contrived? And you attempt to debase my argument by suggesting it's laughable?

 

 

I'm not sure, but are we having a discussion? A debate? Are we attempting to tease out the finer details of what represents good game design? Sighting examples of what we prefer? Or are you telling me what you think... Full stop.

[crazyduck]

Sounds like a great idea to me. I feel like those of us that don't like the A17 change are just beating the proverbial dead horse at this time. Madmole has already said in numerous threads (paraphrasing) to get over it, TFP will not revert to books or learn by doing, ect.

 

True madmole said they will not revert anything from the Alpha 17 changes.

But dead horse dont think so, i already added back books for recipes and Schematics for recipes and removed all unlocks from the skills.

 

But to make this work on a server the Pimps need to add 1 little thing people ask since some time. Custom Item Descriptions wihtout modding the Localization file cause this file is not shared like the xml files.

 

Without such a custom description its stupid cause now someone woudl find on my server a book called guns and dont know which recipes it will unlock cause i have no chance to write that into the description.

 

And that is something i really dont understand, they have time to rewrite 80% of the game to add stuff many people dont like but they dont have the time to add 1 simple function to the game some people asking for years now.

[Roland]

Aren't these games you are referring to mainly story based?

I wound think that's why the gates arent as obvious for the player. And why it works so well in these games.

 

About that. What's the plan for the storyline or the lore in 7dtd?

 

That is a good point. In this game we largely create the story ourselves and this is how I largely play by creating a story of living during a zombie apocalypse and I DONT notice the level gates very much at all.

 

The original trailer for the game talked about learning the story through found notes. So I’m not sure how involved of a canned story line there will actually be.

[Roland]

And that is something i really dont understand, they have time to rewrite 80% of the game to add stuff many people dont like but they dont have the time to add 1 simple function to the game some people asking for years now.

 

That’s easy to understand. They don’t share your priorities.

[PoppaTot]

That’s easy to understand. They don’t share your priorities.

 

I appreciate straight-forwardness, but at the same time they tout "if you don't like it, mod it" and claim to be modder friendly. If modders have been asking for that for years, why not take a moment and add it?

[JoelleEmmily]

Sliders for zombie run speed is one thing. Sliders for completely changing the progression system is another.

 

How?

 

[ ] Character level free progression

[ ] Start with all recipes

0.5x/2x/4x/8x XP awarded for zombie kills

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

That is a good point. In this game we largely create the story ourselves and this is how I largely play by creating a story of living during a zombie apocalypse and I DONT notice the level gates very much at all.

 

The original trailer for the game talked about learning the story through found notes. So I’m not sure how involved of a canned story line there will actually be.

 

Unless they added one, Planet Nomads has no story. You're dropped on a planet, you mine, you kill for food, you build bases and vehicles.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Played Ark and hated it = not happy/satisfied = true statement

 

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all of the time” (John Lydgate)

 

The game doesn't matter... Ark has a lot of problems, the example was regarding the customization options you are presented before building a world. Unless you believe not liking the game, also invalidates all other aspects of it's design.

[Exxodous]

 

The game doesn't matter... Ark has a lot of problems, the example was regarding the customization options you are presented before building a world. Unless you believe not liking the game, also invalidates all other aspects of it's design.

 

No, just reiterating the fact it's impossible to make everyone happy all the time. So we as individuals must either adapt to or accept change based on our own idea of what is "good" game design.

[Aldranon]

Sliders for zombie run speed is one thing. Sliders for completely changing the progression system is another.

 

Consider this a discovery into creative ways to satisfy as many players as possible.

 

In the options menu, you can have the following:

-Starter quest points gained.

-Points gained per level.

-Minimum player levels needed for Perk tier, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

 

Each 6 difficulty settings should have presets (including current settings available), that players can modify.

 

 

Not impossible and the end results is a game more people would like to play.

[JoelleEmmily]

No, just reiterating the fact it's impossible to make everyone happy all the time. So we as individuals must either adapt to or accept change based on our own idea of what is "good" game design.

 

Alright, you're reiterating your statement, but continued to not provide an argument. "I don't like Ark." That's nice... Ark has a highly customizable menu before you begin the game to tailor your game play... "No, I'm just saying, you can't please everyone." DUDE! THE MENU! "I'm just saying..."

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Consider this a discovery into creative ways to satisfy as many players as possible.

 

In the options menu, you can have the following:

-Starter quest points gained.

-Points gained per level.

-Minimum player levels needed for Perk tier, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

 

Each 6 difficulty settings should have presets (including current settings available), that players can modify.

 

 

Not impossible and the end results is a game more people would like to play.

 

By jobe, I think he got it.

[crazyduck]

That’s easy to understand. They don’t share your priorities.

 

So Roland you say Madmole is not telling the Truth?

he said few days ago in another thread to me i should and could mod it if i dont like how the Devs Vision of Alpha 17 is, but if i cannot mod it cause the Devs dont add the needed things cause they dont share the Priorities to mod it then Madmole was not telling the truth.

 

Cause i cannot mod something if i cannot add a Description to something so Players understand what this item is needed for or how it works.

 

So no its not easy to understand, cause we are not talking about months of development, adding such a simple thing would not take much time and it would make modding much easier and user friendly.

[Mad_Dane]

This game actually appears to resemble the kickstarter finally. Its supposed to be an RPG. Finally we have quests and npcs and a real skill system. Everything else is essentially the same. We do need to properly balance it, but can you explain how its not fun for you now? How many hours have you played a17?

 

Kickstarter also promised tower defence, yet you gain no XP from trap kills, so building a base is almost completely pointless now, best strategy now is just ride a bike and kill them in the morning or play with always walk on.

 

The base now is just a glorified storage box!

[Roland]

By jobe, I think he got it.

 

The part you are not factoring in is balance. If they add in non-trivial options that change the progression of the game and make them official options then they are obligated to make sure those options play correctly.

 

Now is still not the time to add in such options just because players want to play it differently. Having to re-calibrate each option as development continues would take up time better spent elsewhere.

 

I don’t think anything is wrong with a rich selection of options and hope to see it eventually.

[Roland]

So Roland you say Madmole is not telling the Truth?

he said few days ago in another thread to me i should and could mod it if i dont like how the Devs Vision of Alpha 17 is, but if i cannot mod it cause the Devs dont add the needed things cause they dont share the Priorities to mod it then Madmole was not telling the truth.

 

Cause i cannot mod something if i cannot add a Description to something so Players understand what this item is needed for or how it works.

 

So no its not easy to understand, cause we are not talking about months of development, adding such a simple thing would not take much time and it would make modding much easier and user friendly.

 

To say the devs are lying about making this game mod friendly because your most desired change hasn’t happened yet is ridiculous. “Priorities” doesn’t mean they won’t do it. It means that they’ll do it when they get to it. How do you know it is a simple thing?

 

Also it sounds like you can mod it to how you like but just can’t push the descriptions from server to client? Couldn’t you make the files downloadable to those who wish to join your server?

[Exxodous]

Alright, you're reiterating your statement, but continued to not provide an argument. "I don't like Ark." That's nice... Ark has a highly customizable menu before you begin the game to tailor your game play... "No, I'm just saying, you can't please everyone." DUDE! THE MENU! "I'm just saying..."

 

 

I'm saying that even with Ark's "highly customizable menu before you begin the game to tailor your game play" I was still unhappy with the way the game played ie the mechanics and progression.

 

Thus although sometimes beneficial, game options and sliders, do not solve all the problems or make all people happy with the game. In my humble opinion the ability to mod it to my liking is a far more important factor in a games ability to please more (not all) people. The modding option is there for anyone willing to put a little effort into, something some (not all) people are willing to invest in.

[Dimpy]

Just started playing A17. On day 4 or so...

I've been treating Game Stage like the heat map, something that attracts zombies. XP is something that is both good and bad, and so I just focus on surviving (and looting for resources) instead of grinding for levels. So far it's been a relaxed, almost fun experience.

(Not to say I have anything against a frantic yet horrifying slog through death, decay and destruction.)