Some A17 thoughts

[Sergoros]

Yes, it's the complaint I least understand. I mean, I specifically don't want to be one-shotting anything on Day 1.

 

Tho, I dont like seeing radioactive feral zed with over hundred arrows in him too, even on insane difficulty. But that was in version before 200. So maybe they already fixed it. Havent really played since then

[OzHawkeye]

Tho, I dont like seeing radioactive feral zed with over hundred arrows in him too, even on insane difficulty. But that was in version before 200. So maybe they already fixed it. Havent really played since then

 

Well, for me, Insane, ought to be just about nigh on impossible. And ok, maybe 100 is a little too nigh, but it ought to be damned hard, and damned, damned hard on top of that... hehe.

[Sergoros]

Well, for me, Insane, ought to be just about nigh on impossible. And ok, maybe 100 is a little too nigh, but it ought to be damned hard, and damned, damned hard on top of that... hehe.

 

I was out of arrows and had to run away btw. As far as I know, I may have needed 500 arrows. Or his regeneration was simply faster, than I can shoot at him.

[OzHawkeye]

I was out of arrows and had to run away btw. As far as I know, I may have needed 500 arrows. Or his regeneration was simply faster, than I can shoot at him.

 

Definitely possible with a feral on Insane. So yeah, maybe seeing one on Day 1 is a little too rich, but trying to kill one with a bow might be tough on any day on Insane.

[HungryZombie]

The person was saying that it takes more shots to kill a zombie meaning more farming for arrows that makes things slower.

 

I was just thinking, Instead of making it easier, just use melee most of the time. Even without levels it comes in handy, and use bow when you really need to. I question if people really need to use a bow on every single zombie they see.

 

Oh yea I totally agree. Melee is not hard at all once you get the timing down and keep an eye on your stamina.

 

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Yes, it's the complaint I least understand. I mean, I specifically don't want to be one-shotting anything on Day 1.

 

I play all kinds of ways. Some days I kick the difficulty up past default, some days I just wanna punch zombies in the face once and move on. I can understand wanting to roll scavenger setting sometimes.

 

What I don't understand is complaining about how difficult something is when the fix is so easy.

[OnlyMeiya]

The person was saying that it takes more shots to kill a zombie meaning more farming for arrows that makes things slower.

 

I was just thinking, Instead of making it easier, just use melee most of the time. Even without levels it comes in handy, and use bow when you really need to. I question if people really need to use a bow on every single zombie they see.

 

In the early game its not recommended to melee combat, if you get hit you are > 100% HP therefore vultures will start to chase you which will interrupt your farming process for basic resources.

 

Can you do it? Yes, but early game medical recovery supplies are extremely limited and so are your sources of great food which means you get very little hp returns.

 

You're also not very well geared for melee combat.

 

Later in the Mid-End game, I pretty much do nothing but melee as I have the stam,perks,and gear to properly support that. I only then use bow or gun as occasional calls for it at night since I don't want to melee through multiple zeds at night, thats a risk you don't want is a random stun with zeds sprinting at you.

 

I'm not really asking for it to be lowered, its always been like this really, the problem is we no longer get passive skill ups for using the Bow, and we really don't get anymore "Damage" by increasing its quality, only durability and what point is that when you can repair it with a piece of wood?

 

What I want is slightly more damage (Im using a compound + Dye for increased damage (What sense does that make anyway... ) and Im still not seeing 2 head shot kills, its still 3, which is annoying, I don't want to farm anymore damn arrows.

 

Hell I don't see any increase in using the steel arrow tips either, so what exactly is the point?

 

Also it takes too damn many points into intellect to finally get your forge skill for iron tools, if I could get the forge faster I could get better tools to farm the damn rocks I need faster, then my only limiting factor then would be farming bird nests, which really doesn't take more than a few minutes.

 

Whacking a damn boulder with a stone axes is very boring.

[hotpoon]

Our forums are composed of mostly hardcore veterans who are vocal. The average player is not hardcore nor vocal. Anyhow we love all you guys input and are working hard to make as many people happy as possible.

 

You should be grateful for those vocal hardcore veterans, because they won't just abandon the game if they get bored with it like others will. They will argue with you to try and make it a success. Nobody is fighting with you for the sake of being an argumentative a-hole. We want this game to be massively successful so that more people jump on, so that we aren't stuck playing a modded singleplayer of A16.4.

 

Roland asked the vocal veterans in the poll some important questions, and they gave valuable feedback. For example 48% prefer the A16 combo of perks and learn by doing, and 23% would go even further away from A17 by having a full learn by doing system. And yet, Roland mentioned earlier in the thread the learn by doing is a closed topic that you likely won't budge on.

 

If you become stubborn about this and make excuses why that data doesn't matter, just know that casual players who feel the same (and it's likely going to be the same ratio), are just going to play something else. They aren't going to come to the forum to argue because they don't care enough. WE CARE. Please listen to us.

[Jugginator]

I was out of arrows and had to run away btw. As far as I know, I may have needed 500 arrows. Or his regeneration was simply faster, than I can shoot at him.

 

Takes about 40 headshots using a compound bow to kill a rad wight on insane as a level 1. I tested it randomly lol. But yeah I think insanse is for when you get set-up in survivalist. Starting it on insane is... insane.. hehe. Kinda hard to get constant head shots out in the open.

[Dunkurtin]

You should be grateful for those vocal hardcore veterans, because they won't just abandon the game if they get bored with it like others will. They will argue with you to try and make it a success. Nobody is fighting with you for the sake of being an argumentative a-hole. We want this game to be massively successful so that more people jump on, so that we aren't stuck playing a modded singleplayer of A16.4.

 

Roland asked the vocal veterans in the poll some important questions, and they gave valuable feedback. For example 48% prefer the A16 combo of perks and learn by doing, and 23% would go even further away from A17 by having a full learn by doing system. And yet, Roland mentioned earlier in the thread the learn by doing is a closed topic that you likely won't budge on.

 

If you become stubborn about this and make excuses why that data doesn't matter, just know that casual players who feel the same (and it's likely going to be the same ratio), are just going to play something else. They aren't going to come to the forum to argue because they don't care enough. WE CARE. Please listen to us.

 

 

 

It goes further than that, madmole is currently putting the entire future of TFP on the line with his behaviour. Because most the hardcore veterans are not just hardcore fans of only one franchise. They are often representative of the portion of the community who are willing to fund early access games. They often make up a large portion of the influencers of the community(I don't mean social media type influencers, rather the more common one person that everyone knows and will go to for advice on a specific kind of topic). When a casual player is looking for new game suggestions they don't ask other casuals, they ask someone they know is more passionate about games because they're more likely to have a better idea of whats out there. After this whole debacle, many of those people won't be eager to jump on board of another project that madmole is involved with. This kind of behaviour will quickly earn someone a wider reputation within the community, and gamers are not quick to forget or forgive. So unless madmole personally thinks TFP is in a financial position to switch to pushing out casual COD-esque drivel after 7DTD finally wraps up, he has potentially done severe damage to the companies future prospects.

[Sergoros]

Takes about 40 headshots using a compound bow to kill a rad wight on insane as a level 1. I tested it randomly lol. But yeah I think insanse is for when you get set-up in survivalist. Starting it on insane is... insane.. hehe. Kinda hard to get constant head shots out in the open.

 

Mby they already fixed it then. Or maybe you just have been shooting better and faster. So, unlike me, you were able to overcome his regeneration.

[OnlyMeiya]

We honestly need better damage options for early game, I really don't see much increase changing anything significant. Really what we need is at least -1 arrow shot for that perk spending to be worth spending it.

 

20% more damage but still taking 3 arrows isn't "Worth" spending that perk point(s).

[Kage848]

I changed the recipe to 1 bone for 1 glue, so 2x the glue now. BTW, traders sell glue and duct tape. I can up the quantities they have pretty easy. Most of the recipes that need a lot of steel are huge game changing recipes you should not be able to spam craft, like high end vehicles. Ever play ark? An ascendant sniper rifle costs me like 2500 metal lol. We'll never be 10% as grindy as Ark.

 

Haven't glue always been 1 bone per glue? At least on the chem station. Are you saying now we can make glue in the campfire for 1 bone?

 

The ark comparison is a little misleading. Ark has extensive harvesting settings.

 

I dont personally have a problem with steel but I do agree, more bones would be welcome. Or 1 bone = 2 glue.

 

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You have some points, but isn't designing base you can survive in the reason you bought this game, not to be a bone farmer? I get really pissed and want to punch something if I die in any game so for me surviving is everything. There is XP to gain, I leveled up 3 times on the day 7 horde, so there is that motivation which is no different than skilling up your pistol in a16. We are going to increase the chance for loot drops a little.

 

At the end of the day we want everyone to enjoy the game. Its not taylored for the builders yet so that is something we're working on. I'm building a mega castle so we'll see how hard it is and make adjustments as needed. Playing as a rogue scavenger who uses mostly melee is working well but other play styles need some love for sure.

 

Everyone has different things they like or ways to play. For you its a reward, for me its not dying because I take pride in 0 deaths, and building a nice castle I know has so many fall back rooms that no matter what horde comes I'm not goind gown. I have my escape hatch and coffee maybe a vehicle ready to run as long as it takes. Preparation and plans pay off usually.

 

The issue with building is no xp. It's that simple.

 

I don't have steel picks yet or massive perks but I also find grinding resources is slow and the exp is way too little. Yea that's only iron level but I'd argue we should be getting good xp, even at mid game.

[Kareekoe]

its more broken than a plane that crashed into the ground at 200mph, more buggy than a cockroach infested ghetto apartment in the Bronx, and worse performance that makes everything feel like a Michael Bay film minus the explosions and action, and only the slow motion effects.

[JamesKirk]

Like most people didn't know sexual trex reduces mining stamina use, not just melee stamina use.

Maybe you should add this to the perk description.

Btw. Some days ago you wrote that fat is edible now, but its description lacks the amount of fullness/health gained.

How many points you gain through eating fat?

[HerrKingsley]

While I acknowledge many people hate it, the question I have is - how do you "fix" what they hate without "breaking" what others love?

 

 

I have always envisioned the biomes being diffrent tire areas.

 

Living in the starter biome (forest) you will only encounter regular zombies. In this biome you will only find materials that would get you to iron age.

Building materials would stay at cobblestone as max.

You can get a forge by day one but there is no material in this area to produce steel or concrete.

 

You could live a long and prosperous life here but you would never get to see what the world has to offer. And you would definatly be able to one shot zombies if your aim is true.

 

You can whenever you want venture in to another biome but you would have to be very skilled to survive.

 

Higher tire biomes will have harsher climate, making it hard for you to survive without proper clothing and food.

Enemies are tougher and smarter.

And the materials you need to survive in this biome is manly found in this biome.

 

That way the player might have to do small runs to the new biome, and then retreate back home to kick wounds. But the new materials and loot would make it worth it.

 

THE WASTELAND

Radioactive, hot, dens population of zombies. Material is scares but loot is good.

 

A Top tire area for the most hardcore player.

Think of it as the old hub city, endless radiated waves of zombies. Just looting a singel container would need some serious planning and is an achievement in it self.

This is where you will find the best mods, weapons, tools and armor.

Here is where you get your bragging right.

 

"I have survived 3 days in the wastlands"

"I have my base set up in the wastlands"

 

 

This scenario I think would please most player and tfp can balance each biome by it self.

Players who like building great forts can choose to.

Players who think the games is to easy can head straight to a more difficult biome.

And I dont think there is a need for xp, lvls or perks.

Gates and progression is balanced by the biomes difficulty.

[F6Knight]

The problem with book gates is that it completely removes major portions of the game that everyone should see and experience if they want. I played long games where I didn't get a minibike book and it was frustrating. The new perk system solves that and so many other problems with progression. You are gated by stuff in every game. Either a level you can't beat, or some money to buy an upgrade to your race car, bullets needed to shoot stuff, some action needed to perform.

 

Ark is level gated because you need to gain levels to buy engrams. Skyrim and fallout two of the best selling franchises of all times are level gated. Do you think the 1 billion players hated that?

 

The reason we put in level gates was because teams of guys were hitting INT 10 by day 3. Its an edge case, but generally speaking stuff you have to wait for is more appreciated. I don't think the wait is long, I got my forge on day 5, bicycle on day 8, minibike on day 13. Thats less than 13 hours. Not a big deal when your having fun.

 

I'm sorry for repeating myself Madmole but as long as shared team xp creates 80% bonus xp out of thin air, (and that's in a 2 player team, probably even more in a larger team) you will always have this situation.

1 player can go full INT while all the others go full STR for faster zombie killing. Clear POI's together or set the xp share distance to 10k and you will always have teams hitting 10 INT on day 2-3-4 and then craft iron tools and minibikes for the whole team.

Gating perks won't solve this without punishing SP, unless you have lower gates on SP.

 

As a mostly solo player I NEVER hit INT10 on day 3, let alone day 14 or 21. I probably could by day 7 by POI grinding but then I have to sacrifice too many useful perks and it's incredibly boring so it's not worth it imho.

I have to be much more careful with where I put my points because I have no team members to rely on to craft things for me.

INT is still an important stat for me, but I have to spread my points out a lot more if I want to be a jack of all trades and be mostly self sufficient.

I'm on day 23 and just hit level 70 after focussing on POI grinding since day 18-19. I finally made myself a full set of steel tools and a motorcycle. I couldn't do my motorcycle at level 50 because I got unlucky and the trader didn't sell any steel.

I'm at INT8 with nerdy glasses so I'm crafting tier 6 items and have most of my other attributes up to 5 with various useful perks up to 3. (mining, stamina, farming, healing, stun resistance, ...)

This feels very close to a balanced way to play the game. Doing this in MP would have drastically changed this experience.

 

Teams will ALWAYS have an advantage over a solo player. You can never truly balance that. It's a fact of life.

But shared xp creating 80+% bonus xp out of thin air is now stacking on top of the advantage you already get for being in a team.

Keep in mind though, changing shared xp to only create a 5-10% bonus or no bonus at all will still let teams hit INT10 before night 7.

That's the advantage of playing in a team in most games. You can clear more content faster and safer (in this case killing zombies to level up).

 

It's up to you guys to find the balance between MP and SP without punishing one too much (most likely SP in this case).

You'll most likely end up with either a loose(SP)/win(MP) or a win(SP)/bigger win(MP) situation. I'm hoping for the second result, even if it means accepting that MP will have an advantage over SP. But that's ok as long as SP doesn't feel like it's being punished for MP balance purposes.

 

A lot of people on the forum have been giving A17 a lot of flak but change is always difficult.

I'm happy with A17. It still needs a lot of polish and it's far from being the final result of the game but that's ok. It's an alpha after all. People seem to forget that quite often.

I remember a time when video games had no early access or even alpha's/beta's. And gamers didn't have any say in the growth or development of a game.

Gamers are so spoiled these days and then they still complain about everything. Don't let that negativity get you down. Keep up the good work!

 

Happy holidays!

[Aldranon]

Maybe you should add this to the perk description.

Btw. Some days ago you wrote that fat is edible now, but its description lacks the amount of fullness/health gained.

How many points you gain through eating fat?

 

Fat restores 5 points to stamina. If its that or dying, better than nothing.

[FileMachete]

Fat is better than a can of Cat Food! ( #catfoodgate )

 

+5 Stamina, +2 Health (same as cat food) but 0% chance of Food Poisoning ...

[Aldranon]

Int 10 is great, but its not required for a while.

 

I use a miner hat, 2 iron armor and I bought one tier 1 steel chest piece. I always wear my armor now that I have a minibike. I have gotten close to dying, fighting a large group including a strong feral and a pack of dogs... then I back stepped onto a mine! I lived because of the armor and I always try to keep 10 First Aid Bandages on my belt.

 

 

Dead is Dead, is not dead yet!

[PoppaTot]

I mean if we are thinking in a rational mind and from his perspective sure.

 

It is not really a matter of being ok or not, what matters is that we paid for a alpha build of a game in early access. Yes, the game changed to be something that some don't like, but that comes at a cost of it being a alpha for so long.

 

 

So lets look at it from his perspective. This is his child, his project and he wants to take it in a certain way. Yet, some of the community does not like that way he is going with it. You now have to ask yourself, who is making the game? The community or me? I could listen to the community and change it back, but it won't be my game anymore. I won't be able to do what I want to do with the game.

 

 

 

While yes being loyal and standing behind him is nice, I supported this game even if I did not like the skill up systems blah blah, because I I like the big changes that happens, and want to see where it goes.

 

 

 

Does it suck for people like the older version? Yes, but for some devs that price to pay is worth it, to take the game in a path that they want it to go. God knows Blizzard does this all the time lol.

 

I tend to look at it in a different view, from a business perspective. TFP can (and I am sure they will) wait a few weeks (months) before they make any compromise. See if the steam reviews go back to positive, check the active player data. Any smart business owner would. Then they will re-assess the situation. If player count and reviews are still negative, they will come up with something to try and turn that around.

 

I get your thought process on the "who is making the game, them or me?" but that is terrible thinking from a company that is making a game for me, the consumer.

 

Stubborness in that area will get TFP the game they want, but may result in a game that many will not play after they get bored of the same playthrough every time, or just not play at all.

 

Just my thoughts.

[JCrook1028]

In the early game its not recommended to melee combat, if you get hit you are > 100% HP therefore vultures will start to chase you which will interrupt your farming process for basic resources.

 

Can you do it? Yes, but early game medical recovery supplies are extremely limited and so are your sources of great food which means you get very little hp returns.

 

You're also not very well geared for melee combat.

 

Later in the Mid-End game, I pretty much do nothing but melee as I have the stam,perks,and gear to properly support that. I only then use bow or gun as occasional calls for it at night since I don't want to melee through multiple zeds at night, thats a risk you don't want is a random stun with zeds sprinting at you.

 

I'm not really asking for it to be lowered, its always been like this really, the problem is we no longer get passive skill ups for using the Bow, and we really don't get anymore "Damage" by increasing its quality, only durability and what point is that when you can repair it with a piece of wood?

 

What I want is slightly more damage (Im using a compound + Dye for increased damage (What sense does that make anyway... ) and Im still not seeing 2 head shot kills, its still 3, which is annoying, I don't want to farm anymore damn arrows.

 

Hell I don't see any increase in using the steel arrow tips either, so what exactly is the point?

 

Also it takes too damn many points into intellect to finally get your forge skill for iron tools, if I could get the forge faster I could get better tools to farm the damn rocks I need faster, then my only limiting factor then would be farming bird nests, which really doesn't take more than a few minutes.

 

Whacking a damn boulder with a stone axes is very boring.

 

Weird, I melee from D1 just fine....

 

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I'm sorry for repeating myself Madmole but as long as shared team xp creates 80% bonus xp out of thin air, (and that's in a 2 player team, probably even more in a larger team) you will always have this situation.

1 player can go full INT while all the others go full STR for faster zombie killing. Clear POI's together or set the xp share distance to 10k and you will always have teams hitting 10 INT on day 2-3-4 and then craft iron tools and minibikes for the whole team.

Gating perks won't solve this without punishing SP, unless you have lower gates on SP.

 

As a mostly solo player I NEVER hit INT10 on day 3, let alone day 14 or 21. I probably could by day 7 by POI grinding but then I have to sacrifice too many useful perks and it's incredibly boring so it's not worth it imho.

I have to be much more careful with where I put my points because I have no team members to rely on to craft things for me.

INT is still an important stat for me, but I have to spread my points out a lot more if I want to be a jack of all trades and be mostly self sufficient.

I'm on day 23 and just hit level 70 after focussing on POI grinding since day 18-19. I finally made myself a full set of steel tools and a motorcycle. I couldn't do my motorcycle at level 50 because I got unlucky and the trader didn't sell any steel.

I'm at INT8 with nerdy glasses so I'm crafting tier 6 items and have most of my other attributes up to 5 with various useful perks up to 3. (mining, stamina, farming, healing, stun resistance, ...)

This feels very close to a balanced way to play the game. Doing this in MP would have drastically changed this experience.

 

Teams will ALWAYS have an advantage over a solo player. You can never truly balance that. It's a fact of life.

But shared xp creating 80+% bonus xp out of thin air is now stacking on top of the advantage you already get for being in a team.

Keep in mind though, changing shared xp to only create a 5-10% bonus or no bonus at all will still let teams hit INT10 before night 7.

That's the advantage of playing in a team in most games. You can clear more content faster and safer (in this case killing zombies to level up).

 

It's up to you guys to find the balance between MP and SP without punishing one too much (most likely SP in this case).

You'll most likely end up with either a loose(SP)/win(MP) or a win(SP)/bigger win(MP) situation. I'm hoping for the second result, even if it means accepting that MP will have an advantage over SP. But that's ok as long as SP doesn't feel like it's being punished for MP balance purposes.

 

A lot of people on the forum have been giving A17 a lot of flak but change is always difficult.

I'm happy with A17. It still needs a lot of polish and it's far from being the final result of the game but that's ok. It's an alpha after all. People seem to forget that quite often.

I remember a time when video games had no early access or even alpha's/beta's. And gamers didn't have any say in the growth or development of a game.

Gamers are so spoiled these days and then they still complain about everything. Don't let that negativity get you down. Keep up the good work!

 

Happy holidays!

 

Agreed. Shared MP xp is MUCH too high, by a factor of 8-10.

[JamesKirk]

Shared XP have some good points, too. They grant every player in your party the same amount of progress,

regardless who makes more kills or less. Otherwise the player with most kills will grew stronger and stronger, leaving the other(s) behind.

 

One thought about the perks and armor.

The perks 'light armor' and 'heavy armor' should give you a bonus on stamina loss.

One can learn to move in amor.

[OnlyMeiya]

Weird, I melee from D1 just fine....

 

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Good for you.