What we want to see in 17

[calebelt]

Hi. I would like to summarize the thoughts of a number of players in graphical form for the convenience of developers. Perhaps me support with this idea?

 

[Anarath]

I like the graphical approach. Also its kinds true.

[Krougal]

LOL, Nice!

Yeah, I think that works.

[Hryllingur]

Make it sticky, perfect! Totally agree. Made my day

[PinkLed5]

 

Took me a while to figure out why I was whiffing my melee hits. Turns out the crosshair has to be directly on your target no matter how close you are. Also, you don't have to be that close, discovered.

[Reth]

Nice! I especially liked slide #3 - horde. Stacking zombies is immersion-breaking. I wish TFP would reconsider it.

[Roland]

Nice graphics and great feedback.

 

In the first case, what you show that we want does often happen inside POI's as zombies wake and come from different directions. But what do players do? Maneuver around so that all the zombies end up being in front of them even leading them out to the street to take care of business. That tells me that players don't really want to be surrounded. Screamer hordes are also another situation where the zombies move in from a circumference around the player. Do players sit in the middle and wait to be surrounded or do they maneuver to one side and wait for the zombies to line up? How would zombies really be able to move in flanking strategies anyway? The player could always re-orient to put them back in front of himself. I would love for some of the wandering hordes to come from everywhere rather than a single spawn point but even then within a minute or two the player is going to easily be able to line them back up.

 

In the second case, dogs absolutely could with their greater speed easily seek to outflank the player and that could be really scary. Not sure how people who already hate dogs would feel about that...heheh.

 

In the third case, I absolutely agree. I would like it if horde night saw zombies coming from all directions randomly.

 

In the fourth case I think when you use a gun and wake up all the nearby sleepers you get the left side but when you go in stealthy and don't wake them all at once you get the right side.

 

In the last case, I don't agree. I don't have a problem getting hits in melee. When on a dedicated server with an icky ping I have a hard time not getting hit in return but never a problem landing hits. In fact, once you learn the timing and know that the crosshairs need to be on the target you want to hit right when the the hit lands, I think getting hits in A17 is better than in any previous versions. The accuracy is spot on and the only thing that causes a miss is the player's own error in timing and aiming.

[Kubikus]

Melee has been greatly improved. You actually need to aim precicely now. One of the best changes for me in A17.

[Damocles]

Its still to easy to line up zombies in a row by walking backwards. And then picking them off one by one.

When there are several zombies close by, they could choose random offsets to the side, and then home in to the player again.

Other zombies (the ones closest to the player) could slow down shortly.

 

This would spread them out more, potentially surrounding the player.

 

Also some Zombies breaking off an attack and walking back to their spawn point or another Zombie would make taking them down harder, as the player has to be careful not to run into a trap.

[SnowDog1942]

I wish their speed were ramdomized...both walking and running.

[Roland]

I wish their speed were ramdomized...both walking and running.

 

I've tested this and it doesn't really matter. You just kill the ones who move to the front of the line first and the slowpokes last...just like those derpy crawlers that show up way later.

[Krougal]

Nice graphics and great feedback.

 

In the first case, what you show that we want does often happen inside POI's as zombies wake and come from different directions. But what do players do? Maneuver around so that all the zombies end up being in front of them even leading them out to the street to take care of business. That tells me that players don't really want to be surrounded. Screamer hordes are also another situation where the zombies move in from a circumference around the player. Do players sit in the middle and wait to be surrounded or do they maneuver to one side and wait for the zombies to line up? How would zombies really be able to move in flanking strategies anyway? The player could always re-orient to put them back in front of himself. I would love for some of the wandering hordes to come from everywhere rather than a single spawn point but even then within a minute or two the player is going to easily be able to line them back up.

 

In the second case, dogs absolutely could with their greater speed easily seek to outflank the player and that could be really scary. Not sure how people who already hate dogs would feel about that...heheh.

 

In the third case, I absolutely agree. I would like it if horde night saw zombies coming from all directions randomly.

 

In the fourth case I think when you use a gun and wake up all the nearby sleepers you get the left side but when you go in stealthy and don't wake them all at once you get the right side.

 

In the last case, I don't agree. I don't have a problem getting hits in melee. When on a dedicated server with an icky ping I have a hard time not getting hit in return but never a problem landing hits. In fact, once you learn the timing and know that the crosshairs need to be on the target you want to hit right when the the hit lands, I think getting hits in A17 is better than in any previous versions. The accuracy is spot on and the only thing that causes a miss is the player's own error in timing and aiming.

 

Well because you'd have to be an idiot to LET them flank you, but they should TRY. The congaline is amusing, especially now where they jump on top of each other, but maybe not letting the zombie pile up so close would be good. Personal space and all. I know the Dying Light style horde is a pipe dream because of the game engine if nothing else, but there's gotta be some improvements that can be made.

 

Horde night for sure if they spawned in from different directions would be an improvement, although with the current AI they'd probably still all pile up in the same place anyway.

[Reth]

In the last case, I don't agree. I don't have a problem getting hits in melee. When on a dedicated server with an icky ping I have a hard time not getting hit in return but never a problem landing hits. In fact, once you learn the timing and know that the crosshairs need to be on the target you want to hit right when the the hit lands, I think getting hits in A17 is better than in any previous versions. The accuracy is spot on and the only thing that causes a miss is the player's own error in timing and aiming.

 

I have zero problems getting hits in melee. In fact, I find it easier than aiming a bow and just as safe. But I still find aiming a bit counterintuitive. You get used to it real quick, but it's still a bit off. Perhaps larger hit boxes can rectify this?

[SnowDog1942]

I've tested this and it doesn't really matter. You just kill the ones who move to the front of the line first and the slowpokes last...just like those derpy crawlers that show up way later.

 

Hmm, good point...may not help with the line but I still think it would be cool, so the melee timing on each 1 vs 1 situation was slightly varied

[Deme]

The problem with the melee appears to be that they are using raycasting as if the melee attack was a projectile rather than using a hitbox on the melee weapon. What ends up happening is when you click melee it fires a ray from where the crosshair is, so if cross hair is just beside the zombie then the ray misses even though the actual weapon model is hitting the zombie.

[Roland]

Its still to easy to line up zombies in a row by walking backwards. And then picking them off one by one.

When there are several zombies close by, they could choose random offsets to the side, and then home in to the player again.

Other zombies (the ones closest to the player) could slow down shortly.

 

This would spread them out more, potentially surrounding the player.

 

Also some Zombies breaking off an attack and walking back to their spawn point or another Zombie would make taking them down harder, as the player has to be careful not to run into a trap.

 

It will always be easy to kite them because you are the focal point and they aren't faster than you. In order to flank someone you have to be at least as fast as they are to pass them at a distance and then come at them from the side. This sounds more like bandit behavior for the future.

 

The Walking Dead sometimes shows the characters getting surrounded but it is always because they act like complete idiots. If the show was being realistic all the zombies would line up as well.

[Roland]

Well because you'd have to be an idiot to LET them flank you, but they should TRY.

 

Exactly my point. Either the zombies spawn in close to the player where they can be seen teleporting in or they spawn far away and move in. I think everyone agrees that the second option is preferable. But the second option means the player can never truly be surrounded because it is simplicity itself to move to one side of the closing circle and voila they are all in a line.

 

Sneaking through the dungeon POI's can result in being surround in close quarters and that is fun to dodge and juke away jumping over couches and using obstacles to your advantage but the smartest is to get out of the house and....get them to line up again.

 

I'm not against 360 random spawning around the player. I would love it. My only point is that the end result will always be the same. Conga line kite killing.

[Kosmic Kerman]

Zombies always take the shortest path to brains. Everyone knows this.

[Damocles]

It will always be easy to kite them because you are the focal point and they aren't faster than you. In order to flank someone you have to be at least as fast as they are to pass them at a distance and then come at them from the side. This sounds more like bandit behavior for the future.

 

The Walking Dead sometimes shows the characters getting surrounded but it is always because they act like complete idiots. If the show was being realistic all the zombies would line up as well.

 

Thats what I ment with the zombies in front slowing down, or stopping.

The player will be inclined to get close to them or stand still, at least not walking backwards anymore.

During this time the other zombies (with a side step offset) have a chance to surround the player.

[Randomdude]

The problem with the melee appears to be that they are using raycasting as if the melee attack was a projectile rather than using a hitbox on the melee weapon. What ends up happening is when you click melee it fires a ray from where the crosshair is, so if cross hair is just beside the zombie then the ray misses even though the actual weapon model is hitting the zombie.

 

This. At least it feels this way if this is not the code.

 

I would propose making the model of the zombie heads like 15%-20% bigger. Less frustration with the arrows and melee missing when you literally are in front of your target and know the miss is BS.

 

Hate those 98% misses from X-COM 2. /end rant

[calebelt]

Perhaps this behavior is better?

[Gazz]

So... you want enemies to run much faster than the player so they can surround the player?

 

And some kind of auto aim so you can't miss (whatever the game decides you were aiming at) any more?

 

I'm genuinely curious....

[secateurs]

I would kind of like TFP to share a clear idea of what this game is supposed to be in the end.

[Drunkwolf]

Zombies are allways going to be clumped like that because they are trying to find the easyest fastest path to you. other wise there would be zombies just standing there hitting the wall all day trying to take the shortest path and that is easymode and boring. way to easy to exploit it.

 

but maybe if they couldnt stack and actually blocked each other like they can block a player? that could be interesting. then when they come into a room they would actually spill out and take up more space trying to get to you.

[grieferbastard]

The guy who designed zombie placement in the big POIs is a filthy sadist. I have plenty of encounters with zombies who've ended up behind me. The trick is to be super cautious and have a way to bottleneck them and bring them into a zone I can control.

 

As to melee hits, I admit it's been a struggle but it gives melee some similar skill challenges to ranged. Currently I'm of the opinion that the steel fire axe just might be the best weapon in the game. I'm at level 113 and perked primarily for strength/heavy and intelligence and I'm 1 or sometimes 2 hits to kill just about everything. timing the head hits is what keeps it challenging. I'm not sure I want to risk giving that up and either having to get all melee stuff nerfed a bit or losing that sense of challenge.