Attributes

[Hellevik]

i am missing the time we didnt have perk. have to play for days/weeks before we can get some good loot is terrible. remember the good feeling of finding a good piceaxe on day 1. that time is over now on endgame we are swimming in 600 stuff.

It is so hard barrier to join a new server because we need to play a week before we are "decent" even getting a 600picaxe from a friend and it is terrible if you havent play'd alot and used perk.

now just use a perk and harvest more corn on farming. omg that is terrible gameplay. missing already looking for a human turd.

hope it is possible to mod out and use book recipe.

[ricp]

In regard to "which attribute wins", imo... none of them. Removing the ability to progress naturally through the game and replacing it by a rather turgid and uninspiring skill purchasing model is possibly one of the least exciting things TFP have done with this game.

 

I honestly thought we had hit a bit of a sweet spot in A16 with a mix of progression and skill purchasing, so I'm sad to see it take what is in my opinion a retrograde step. It seems almost like the skill "tree" has been thrown in at the last minute because, "you know we have to have something and it can't be the same as before".

 

Now, before the fanbois jump on me, the caveat here is that it's the TFPs game. They've designed it from the bottom up, they've dedicated the last few years to it's development (not without it's rewards, of course) and so if anyone is to be the arbiter of whether it should be purchasing or progression it has to be them. I may not like it, but it's not up to me to like it or not, I am pretty much an irrelevance in this decision. I just hope that it doesn't turn out to be as dull as dishwater as Joel's videos have made it look.

 

With all that said and done the "winner" is easily Strength (then Agility). Purely on the basis that you spend a lot more time deliberating on your early game. Later games tend to look after themselves. Make the wrong choice early on and those coveted points could be wasted. For example (and I realise it's not a like for like analogy) in A16 you wouldn't start piling points into purchasing the workbench when you don't need it or don't have the availability of the component parts to build it. Those hard earned points would be far better splashed out on weapons or tool smithing. The same will go for A17. It's all fine and well wishing to get better bartering but truth is, if you can't run, jump and hide or hit like a mule then you won't be reaching any trader to barter.

 

 

TL;DR?

 

Strength, but with reservations that purchase > progression is not (imo) the right way to go.

[Crater Creator]

Intelligence is the most important one ...

 

* Physician because you can not make first aid bandages and plaster casts. So playing with a broken bone is a dead sentence without casts.

 

I don’t think that’s right. There are bandages, and first aid bandages. I assume casts are the corresponding upgraded versions of splints. They likely wouldn’t add art for casts just to replace splints. So my impression from the video was that a perk will let you craft better healing items, but the primitive low-tech option will always be craftable. It’s like he described cooking: anyone can eat a can of beans to avoid starving, but a perk allows for crafting higher quality items.

 

 

Fortitude will be pretty high up for me, especally the Healing factor perk, if I understand it, it heals damaged hp (when the bar goes black in the videos) over time that normally you need first aid kits etc to heal. Might need some balance thou as 1.25 hp/s regen seems a bit high when max health is 200.

 

I can’t check the video right now, but I thought it was measured per minute rather than per second.

[meganoth]

I am still annoyed that a17 doesn't seem to have any headshot multiplier without a perk from what I understand from the video, this may change though. At least I hope it does, because otherwise it'll be super easy killing things if all you need is bodyshots.

 

It already changed shortly after the video, there is a base headshot multiplier of 1.5 as far as I remember.

[Kattla]

Where is the "i don't want to watch 3 hours of madmole videos to attempt to understand this overly complicated system" button?

 

X marks that button in the upper right corner of this window.

[Scyris]

In regard to "which attribute wins", imo... none of them. Removing the ability to progress naturally through the game and replacing it by a rather turgid and uninspiring skill purchasing model is possibly one of the least exciting things TFP have done with this game.

 

I honestly thought we had hit a bit of a sweet spot in A16 with a mix of progression and skill purchasing, so I'm sad to see it take what is in my opinion a retrograde step. It seems almost like the skill "tree" has been thrown in at the last minute because, "you know we have to have something and it can't be the same as before".

 

Now, before the fanbois jump on me, the caveat here is that it's the TFPs game. They've designed it from the bottom up, they've dedicated the last few years to it's development (not without it's rewards, of course) and so if anyone is to be the arbiter of whether it should be purchasing or progression it has to be them. I may not like it, but it's not up to me to like it or not, I am pretty much an irrelevance in this decision. I just hope that it doesn't turn out to be as dull as dishwater as Joel's videos have made it look.

 

With all that said and done the "winner" is easily Strength (then Agility). Purely on the basis that you spend a lot more time deliberating on your early game. Later games tend to look after themselves. Make the wrong choice early on and those coveted points could be wasted. For example (and I realise it's not a like for like analogy) in A16 you wouldn't start piling points into purchasing the workbench when you don't need it or don't have the availability of the component parts to build it. Those hard earned points would be far better splashed out on weapons or tool smithing. The same will go for A17. It's all fine and well wishing to get better bartering but truth is, if you can't run, jump and hide or hit like a mule then you won't be reaching any trader to barter.

 

 

TL;DR?

 

Strength, but with reservations that purchase > progression is not (imo) the right way to go.

 

I kinda agree, I sort of remember them saying that A17 was supposed to raise the attributes by doing, like to raise str you have to melee stuff or bust blocks, Then it turns into some boring just pop a point in junk. I liked having to raise gun skill, blunt skill, blades skill etc, I hope those are still in there somewhere. If they aren't its just going to be another Ark survival evolved, which has rather poor progression because all you do is get exp then spent stat/perk points. The perk system also reminds me alot of fallout 4 as well. I'll have to see it in action to really judge, but I don't like the idea that you just spend perk points to learn everything.

[DarlingCows]

I kinda agree, I sort of remember them saying that A17 was supposed to raise the attributes by doing, like to raise str you have to melee stuff or bust blocks, Then it turns into some boring just pop a point in junk. I liked having to raise gun skill, blunt skill, blades skill etc, I hope those are still in there somewhere. If they aren't its just going to be another Ark survival evolved, which has rather poor progression because all you do is get exp then spent stat/perk points. The perk system also reminds me alot of fallout 4 as well. I'll have to see it in action to really judge, but I don't like the idea that you just spend perk points to learn everything.

 

I’m not sure how any of the A17 skills are related to ark. I am absolutely all for the A17 skills, it makes the game more interesting and combines borderlands skill tree with 7 days to die. That makes 7 days stand out compared to other survival craft games. In my opinion A16 skills didn’t really make any impressions on me. A17 skill, even though I haven’t tried them are making really hyped for the release.

[ricp]

I’m not sure how any of the A17 skills are related to ark. I am absolutely all for the A17 skills, it makes the game more interesting and combines borderlands skill tree with 7 days to die. That makes 7 days stand out compared to other survival craft games.

In my opinion A16 skills didn’t really make any impressions on me. A17 skill, even though I haven’t tried them are making really hyped for the release.

 

I don't think I've fundamentally disagreed with anyone on here until now. You are totally entitled to your opinion, and of course TFP are totally entitled to develop their game in the manner they see best, but I cannot for one minute relate to your dismissal of the current A16 progression/purchase mix of skills while at the same time lauding the introduction of an entirely linear and uninspired purchase only model.

 

I mean I could perhaps agree that we should wait and see how it all pans out, but to somehow claim the new skill purchasing is "interesting" is, honestly, very weird. It smacks of time constraint and lack of resources, imo, not in any way "interesting".

 

 

My underlying thoughts though are, if A17 is in any way similar to A16 in the modding, the stupid skill purchasing model will be thrown out and a return to the A16 mix of both will be heralded by many as the most sensible way of doing things. All the while vanilla will by hampered by one of the least exciting additions to the 7DtD franchise yet.

[RestInPieces]

My 2 cents.

 

-Well, TFP may in the future consider separating actions into groups, each group slowly raising one (or more with a weighted factor) of the attributes. They must find a solution so that they are raised intuitively though, like diminishing returns or anything else they deem better.

 

-Also recipe perks should not be tied (at least not only) to leveling imo. They could be tied to exploration and POIs and attributes can still play a role whether the knowledge of these items can be acquired (like I mention in my recent thread).

 

-As for survival perks that seem to nullify a part of the survival gameplay, they need to be toned down, only alleviating penalties that currently don't exist as they should imo, so that they are still worth getting.

 

-And finally gameplay perks shouldn't enable action/fps-related gameplay but instead support/improve it. For example, headshot dmg multiplier should still be inherent and perks should only improve it and preferably in more interesting ways than just "more damage", like some of the other already existing perks.

[meganoth]

For example, headshot dmg multiplier should stil be inherent ....

 

Oh man, we need a FAQ. Base headshot multiplier of 1.5 was added by madmole again shortly after his video.

[RestInPieces]

Oh man, we need a FAQ. Base headshot multiplier of 1.5 was added by madmole again shortly after his video.

 

 

Eh, can't keep track of that chaotic dev thread. Seems they immediately listened to feedback on this one, nice!

[Scyris]

Eh, can't keep track of that chaotic dev thread. Seems they immediately listened to feedback on this one, nice!

 

I'm glad they did, Was hoping for a 2.0 base headshot mult, but I'll take 1.5x insted of no headshot base mult.

[DarlingCows]

I don't think I've fundamentally disagreed with anyone on here until now. You are totally entitled to your opinion, and of course TFP are totally entitled to develop their game in the manner they see best, but I cannot for one minute relate to your dismissal of the current A16 progression/purchase mix of skills while at the same time lauding the introduction of an entirely linear and uninspired purchase only model.

 

I mean I could perhaps agree that we should wait and see how it all pans out, but to somehow claim the new skill purchasing is "interesting" is, honestly, very weird. It smacks of time constraint and lack of resources, imo, not in any way "interesting".

 

 

My underlying thoughts though are, if A17 is in any way similar to A16 in the modding, the stupid skill purchasing model will be thrown out and a return to the A16 mix of both will be heralded by many as the most sensible way of doing things. All the while vanilla will by hampered by one of the least exciting additions to the 7DtD franchise yet.

 

For me games that change gameplay with new skills makes the game more interesting A16 skills didn’t do that for me, it became mindless sacking of zombies, which is fun but at some point becomes uninteresting. A17 perks change gameplay which makes them better in my opinion. Plus I like the cleaner one point per level and one per upgrade.

[ricp]

For me games that change gameplay with new skills makes the game more interesting A16 skills didn’t do that for me, it became mindless sacking of zombies, which is fun but at some point becomes uninteresting. A17 perks change gameplay which makes them better in my opinion. Plus I like the cleaner one point per level and one per upgrade.

 

As I say you are totally entitled to your opinion, and obviously we will all need to wait until A17 drops to see how it affects the game, but the skills aren't changing, they are the same skills (or pretty much the same) the only difference is how to get them.

 

What's more the skill "tree" as it is, is entirely lacking in any level of inspiration. From Joel's videos (and granted he did say that a lot were placeholders) it seems that it's just a dull incremental. 1 point = 10% better, 2 points = 30% better, etc, etc. The system seems rushed, not thought out and in general not as conducive to immersive gameplay as the A16 skills are. I'm not saying A16 is perfect, far from it, but the A17 skill acquisition looks like a retrograde step.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't want to go back to A15's spam crafting (where each new object crafted will increase in quality) which lead to people crafting axe after axe to fill up the night. However on the flip side it makes no sense to gain points from doing something (say construction crafting) only for those points to be spent on, for example, better shooting accuracy.

 

As with all of my posts on the dev of 7DtD, I fully accept that my opinion is only one of many and has no weight. TFP will develop the game as they see fit - and rightly too.

[Manchild]

All we need is luck and charisma.

S.P.E.I.A.

[RestInPieces]

All we need is luck and charisma.

S.P.E.I.A.

 

S.P.F.I.A.

 

Luck, charisma, radiant quests and a 4-options dialogue systems with 4 identical options.

[Manchild]

S.P.F.I.A.

 

Luck, charisma, radiant quests and a 4-options dialogue systems with 4 identical options.

 

Not a bad idea.when badits come out maybe Charisma would play a huge role.maybe you can recruit one as a follower.

[DarlingCows]

I don't think I've fundamentally disagreed with anyone on here until now. You are totally entitled to your opinion, and of course TFP are totally entitled to develop their game in the manner they see best, but I cannot for one minute relate to your dismissal of the current A16 progression/purchase mix of skills while at the same time lauding the introduction of an entirely linear and uninspired purchase only model.

 

I mean I could perhaps agree that we should wait and see how it all pans out, but to somehow claim the new skill purchasing is "interesting" is, honestly, very weird. It smacks of time constraint and lack of resources, imo, not in any way "interesting".

 

 

My underlying thoughts though are, if A17 is in any way similar to A16 in the modding, the stupid skill purchasing model will be thrown out and a return to the A16 mix of both will be heralded by many as the most sensible way of doing things. All the while vanilla will by hampered by one of the least exciting additions to the 7DtD franchise yet.

 

You are right, A16 skills focus on building skills by working at them. We will just have to wait for A17 to come out to see how the new skills work.

[meganoth]

but the skills aren't changing, they are the same skills (or pretty much the same) the only difference is how to get them.

 

What's more the skill "tree" as it is, is entirely lacking in any level of inspiration. From Joel's videos (and granted he did say that a lot were placeholders) it seems that it's just a dull incremental. 1 point = 10% better, 2 points = 30% better, etc, etc.

 

Counter-examples to your first claim in the strength tree ONLY:

 

1) Wrecking crew power attack is a completely new mechanic

2) Sex-Try grants stamina on death blows at level 5 of the perk

3) Flurry of Blows adds a crit after x continues blows, beginning at level 2 of the perk

4) Stay down gives an AOE stun effect beginning at level 3

5) Heavy metal adds AOE to knockdown at level 3

6) Pack mule makes you get more inventory slots

 

Counter-examples to your second claim in the strength tree ONLY:

 

2) Sex-Try grants stamina on death blows at level 5 of the perk

3) Flurry of Blows adds a crit after x continues blows, beginning at level 2 of the perk

4) Stay down gives an AOE stun effect beginning at level 3

5) Heavy metal adds AOE to knockdown at level 3

 

Now that was just in the strength tree, there are more examples in the other trees. About the same in perception, slightly less in Int, much less in the last two. Obvious sign they had less time for the later trees, surely because they don't want to delay A17 much further. Much more than reasonably could be summarized with "the same" or even "pretty much the same".

 

They also already said this wouldn't be the final version of the perks, they plan to add more stuff. I think their goal is probably that almost all perks have a second effect that kicks in at a higher level to make specializing interesting and the higher perk levels something one really wants.

[Roland]

I mean I could perhaps agree that we should wait and see how it all pans out, but to somehow claim the new skill purchasing is "interesting" is, honestly, very weird. It smacks of time constraint and lack of resources, imo, not in any way "interesting".

 

I think it plain to see that these devs aren’t afraid to take all the time they want and they have plenty of resources. No, this is a difference in philosophy. These devs philosophically are against the increase skills through grinding method. They do actually like the point spending method and as I have read reactions it seems that there are players who feel as you do but others who feel as the devs do. They aren’t taking the “easy” way out due to laziness or time constraints. They are making a design choice based on their own preferences. Of course, not all will agree with their preferred design.

[Roland]

 

Don't get me wrong I don't want to go back to A15's spam crafting (where each new object crafted will increase in quality) which lead to people crafting axe after axe to fill up the night. However on the flip side it makes no sense to gain points from doing something (say construction crafting) only for those points to be spent on, for example, better shooting accuracy.

 

Here’s the thing. If that is what is fun and immersive for you then you can do it under the new system. Don’t spend a point on shooting accuracy until you’ve gone out and shot 20 zombies in the head. Then spend your point. If you leveled up after killing zombies but you want to spend your point on improving crop yields then go and plant and harvest 20 crops and then spend your point. Role playing is partially dependent on the system but also on the willingness of the player to act out the role. You’ve already admitted that this type of advancing is important to you and fun. There is nothing in the new system that stops you from enjoying yourself in the manner you described.

 

Now...if what you REALLY enjoyed was min/maxing and grinding repetitively to try and attain higher levels as quickly as possible then the new method does crimp that playstyle quite a bit. But since you stated you didn’t like the spam crafting you should try roleplaying learning by doing whenever you decide you want to spend a point. Personally, I’ve felt that in A17 the points are pretty representative of all my actions and I haven’t really felt like I learned better cooking by bashing zombie heads with my club. But everyone’s immersion sensitivity is different.

[ricp]

No, this is a difference in philosophy. These devs philosophically are against the increase skills through grinding method.

 

Completely agree. Which is why I have a liking for the current progression and purchasing model we have now. It could certainly be re-jigged, expanded or given a more 'tree-like' basis, but for me it "philosophically" feels about right. Going to a purchase only method doesn't, or not to me anyway.

 

With that said, it's their game to develop how they wish. I've got an opinion, sure, but that shouldn't hold any great weight here. I mentioned before about the grind of A15, multiple stone axe simulator as it was, and that it was a good thing that it was removed for A16. I'm also on record as saying I'm happy for change.

 

They aren’t taking the “easy” way out due to laziness or time constraints. They are making a design choice based on their own preferences. Of course, not all will agree with their preferred design.

 

Certainly the skills look the least developed of all the game's areas, and certainly from Joel's videos it seems like this is one of the final things to be "tied up", as it were. And the number of placeholders and his uncertainty surrounding some of the things would suggest that.

 

I don't want it to seem like I am blaming or castigating TFP for this, though, It's a nightmare developing games of any size and while time constraints will always be an issue (that's just part of the job) I certainly wouldn't consider the devs lazy.

 

 

All in all the trouble is, and you have touched on this in your previous post, we are comparing a mature and "live" system in A16 with a proposed and unfinished system in an alpha build the general public hasn't yet played.

[ricp]

Here’s the thing. If that is what is fun and immersive for you then you can do it under the new system. Don’t spend a point on shooting accuracy until you’ve gone out and shot 20 zombies in the head. Then spend your point. If you leveled up after killing zombies but you want to spend your point on improving crop yields then go and plant and harvest 20 crops and then spend your point. Role playing is partially dependent on the system but also on the willingness of the player to act out the role. You’ve already admitted that this type of advancing is important to you and fun. There is nothing in the new system that stops you from enjoying yourself in the manner you described.

 

Just a minor thing on this, while I do agree with you, you sort of hit the nail on the head with the "philosophy" of it. It doesn't seem right to me to be able to reward yourself with farming ability for doing something not related to farming.

 

Now to be fair, that is sort of the way some of A16 skills work. Kill zombies for XP, XP gives you points and you can spend those points on non-zombie killing skills (like steel smithing or the workbench). It's the removal of the progression element that, for me, removes a bit of the immersion.

 

As mentioned in my last reply, I'll go with the flow, and I'm sure that if A17 is as moddable as A16 then someone will bring out a reworked skill setup mod if there are enough people who don't like the new vanilla one.

 

We'll see when A17 hits.... ideally within the next month or so.

[Roland]

I agree that the perks that are simply a progression of % seem lackluster compared to the perks that actually grant different abilities at each level. If someone wants to start an Alt Perk thread with suggestions to replace those perks that are simple % increases I’d point Madmole’s attention to it.

 

For example the Parkour perk simply increases jump height by a %. Instead, maybe one level grants wall sliding, another grants a side jump dodging move, another allows climbing a sheer cliff, and another a 2-block jump ability.

[SnowDog1942]

I agree that the perks that are simply a progression of % seem lackluster compared to the perks that actually grant different abilities at each level. If someone wants to start an Alt Perk thread with suggestions to replace those perks that are simple % increases I’d point Madmole’s attention to it.

 

For example the Parkour perk simply increases jump height by a %. Instead, maybe one level grants wall sliding, another grants a side jump dodging move, another allows climbing a sheer cliff, and another a 2-block jump ability.

 

What is the point of percent jump unless its 100 percent to get you another block? I'm asking, not saying its stupid - though I admit I'm leaning heavily that way.