New perk system

[Pille]

Without further explanations, I don't see any fundamental incompatibilities between RPGs and survival games...

[KhaineGB]

Already given my input on the other thread... but here goes.

 

When the A17 videos first came out, MM was talking about adding stats so it was more like an RPG. My first thought was "Great! So we're going to have stats, skills AND perks! This is going to be amazing."

 

What's being shown off now? It's not amazing. It's very restrictive. I've seen a lot of talk about how modders will be able to customize a lot more, which is fantastic, but the 1-100 skills that you could level by DOING were far more interactive. I would've loved to see the old system + the new stat system merged together so we get something akin to... say... Fallout 3 as an example (you had a stat system and then skills that went from 1 to... a lot). Before anyone says "But that was a %-based skill system!" yes, I know, but it's one of the few RPG's I can think of that used a 1-10 stat system and then a 1-100 (and more) skill system combined that I have personal experience with.

 

And I know I'm not alone with this view. I've been talking to friends and folks in my mod community... and the general thoughts are this.

 

1) The game LOOKS amazing and is much appreciated.

2) Improved performance is fantastic and something everyone is looking forward to.

3) Extra vehicles are good.

4) Gun modding is good.

5) Folks are happy the AI is fixed.

 

That's it. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to has said they'd be happy with A16 just getting the improved performance and fixed AI. I know that's vastly different from the feedback on the forums, but when I suggest posting that feedback on here, the general response has been "Why? I'll just get the fan boys arguing with me." I'm not saying that to try and cause an argument, or problems or anything like that, but some of the staff come across as just as bad. Yes, I know the answers may be a little sarcastic, but that translates really badly in text.

 

I honestly do not understand why the old system was ripped out and replaced with this other than "We wanted to." The old one worked fairly well. Adding in the ability to customize it more with the new buff/effect system (which is absolutely AMAZING from the info dump we got, so massive kudos to the team for that) is great, but for the love of god, at least leave the OLD code hook ups in the DLL for modders to use so we can put back 1-100 skills.

 

You might not want it. Joel and his brother might not want it. The users do.

[RestInPieces]

Without further explanations, I don't see any fundamental incompatibilities between RPGs and survival games...

 

You could delete half the perks and make me interact with the world to get the same results.

 

The way that you combine RPG elements with survival elements matters. RPG elements can completely overshadow survival elements or complement them. I don't know if this is the case with these perks in A17 yet, because there are a lot of changes happening, but some of them seem to make some survival aspects obsolete. Time will show.

[Death2gnomes]

Don't drop that mic too fast. Immersive and this current attribute/perk system could not be more contradictory.

 

Im looking forward to trying it, I think a lot of work has gone into it and I think it will be ages better than what 16 had in its progression system but don't for one minute think that going out to kill zombies, acquiring a phantom point that you can place in a perk that allows you to harvest 3 corn is immersive. It is anything BUT that.

 

If you pick it apart it's borderline laughable, even if it does add more to do in the game. The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

 

But that's effectively what they are moving AWAy from in the base game. Especially with ridiculous perks like "buy 5 of me and you won't be stunned any longer". How is that NOT immersion breaking? How does that even MAKE SENSE?

 

When your core mechanic is as simple as stand in one spot, pull out your gun and move in a circle shooting zombies over and over and doing so will allow you to open up more backpack space, better health food, healing items, better accuracy, quicker looting and a host of other options I don't think you can claim it as immersive and challenging.

 

*drops mic*

 

This.

 

Perks, skills or whatever you want to call them is a huge part of major MMO immersion, yes its part of building character, but if not done right it makes the game feel lackluster and boring. The way I see it, this new attribute system removes thought from the equation. You're damn skippy everyone will buy anti-stun, its a game breaking skill perk. IMO all the trees are a bit OP and lowers the challenge and invites stupid mods with 1 million HP zombies. The worse part of all this is that the new perk system hampers what modders can do with it while keeping with the spirit of the base game.

[quixe]

I've seen the video, I've looked into into it, shown it to my friends and we're all REALLY worried about where the game is heading now, between the perk system and the way combat is going to made arbitrarially harder yet by changing how the knockdowns work and reducing stun state and making it the only way to get invisible XP points isn't good. The best way I can put it is it feels like you're going from from Morrowind to Fallout 4. There's a satisfaction to watching a number climb, watching and FEELING your skill get better and better. It leads to specialization in groups too. People who want to be builders put time into it people who fight or gather do that. But this? Everyone has to go out and kill zombies it doesn't matter what they do or want to do they have to go out and kill the monsters until they get that "PING YOU DID IT!" and then are allowed a perk. It's not even about immersion to me, I feel like that's been the term thrown around but it's more akin to organic character growth. Sure building a 1000 clubs in the old days wasn't immersive but it DID grow your character and hey the maniac who went and above and beyond and made like 10,000? Well he really wanted to be the weaponsmith for your ragtag bunch of survivors, he's earned it.

[Death2gnomes]

Already given my input on the other thread... but here goes.

 

When the A17 videos first came out, MM was talking about adding stats so it was more like an RPG. My first thought was "Great! So we're going to have stats, skills AND perks! This is going to be amazing."

 

What's being shown off now? It's not amazing. It's very restrictive. I've seen a lot of talk about how modders will be able to customize a lot more, which is fantastic, but the 1-100 skills that you could level by DOING were far more interactive. I would've loved to see the old system + the new stat system merged together so we get something akin to... say... Fallout 3 as an example (you had a stat system and then skills that went from 1 to... a lot). Before anyone says "But that was a %-based skill system!" yes, I know, but it's one of the few RPG's I can think of that used a 1-10 stat system and then a 1-100 (and more) skill system combined that I have personal experience with.

 

And I know I'm not alone with this view. I've been talking to friends and folks in my mod community... and the general thoughts are this.

 

1) The game LOOKS amazing and is much appreciated.

2) Improved performance is fantastic and something everyone is looking forward to.

3) Extra vehicles are good.

4) Gun modding is good.

5) Folks are happy the AI is fixed.

 

That's it. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to has said they'd be happy with A16 just getting the improved performance and fixed AI. I know that's vastly different from the feedback on the forums, but when I suggest posting that feedback on here, the general response has been "Why? I'll just get the fan boys arguing with me." I'm not saying that to try and cause an argument, or problems or anything like that, but some of the staff come across as just as bad. Yes, I know the answers may be a little sarcastic, but that translates really badly in text.

 

I honestly do not understand why the old system was ripped out and replaced with this other than "We wanted to." The old one worked fairly well. Adding in the ability to customize it more with the new buff/effect system (which is absolutely AMAZING from the info dump we got, so massive kudos to the team for that) is great, but for the love of god, at least leave the OLD code hook ups in the DLL for modders to use so we can put back 1-100 skills.

 

You might not want it. Joel and his brother might not want it. The users do.

 

I agree. It about time we had a lot of fixes and added content.

[dcsobral]

What is different is a system that allows you to play the game your way and have actual choice in your character progression.

 

I'd like to play a pacifist guy. Someone who sneaks in, loots, sneaks out, and make bases that let him live in the post-apocalyptic world without having to ever kill those who used to be human.

 

But it looks like that guy will be level 1 forever? How's that "play the game your way" and "have actual choice in character progression"?

[Shiana]

I'd like to play a pacifist guy. Someone who sneaks in, loots, sneaks out, and make bases that let him live in the post-apocalyptic world without having to ever kill those who used to be human.

 

But it looks like that guy will be level 1 forever? How's that "play the game your way" and "have actual choice in character progression"?

 

 

It isn't. Thats it. They want to make the game be less grindy, and archive that by turning it into a stupid asia-grinder. Instead of skilling what you want to skill, you now have to grind (kill mobs) like in most mmo-grinders, until it goes "ping" - you leveled up.

You want to make a shotgun - thats 1500 kills away....thats what i call stupid grinding.

[OldManBrian]

Use-based skill leveling only works when the player doesn't think about it. If you look at skyrim, where it works best is with combat skills (attacking, getting attacked, etc.), when doing these things it just feels natural when they level up and the player doesn't think "oh man I need to do this more so I can get better at it!". The game doesn't prevent you from any type of combat until you level up, it just adds flavor and stat bumps as you do.

 

But with things like crafting in skyrim, you're actually reminded everytime you craft that you haven't crafted enough to make better things. You want to make a elven sword? Tough luck, you need to grind out more iron equipment to level up the skill. It's actually stopping you from doing something because you haven't grinded.

 

So, I'm good with usage based skill leveling for stat bumps (like how it is in a16.4), and for a limited amount of "gating" blueprints. In a16.4, it feels like a natural progression so I don't think about it, I've never thought (man I need to grind out crafting\mining\etc so I can unlock X), it always just kind of happens around the time when I'm really wanting it.

[Death2gnomes]

This is a game, not a day job simulator.

The immersion is in playing the game and doing what you want to do, being who you want to be, not performing the actions that your boss, the game, orders you to.

 

The game puts a problem in front of you, like the 7 day horde. How you solve that is up to you. Having to hit the ground 8000 times with a wooden club or crafting 3000 stone shovels is mind-numbing busy-work, not part of the solution.

 

Being a huge gamer, not a dev, actions in games, like with any MMO, means something in one way or another. Any that has played EQ1 knows that skills are leveled by using them. 7d barely scratched the surface on what skills could be used to make it more immersive, the sad part is that 7d tied all skills to leveling, which IMO, is what made players "hit the ground 8000 times or craft 3000 stone shovels". This new system is no better than a hack and slash.

[fl00d3d]

While I feel that many good points were made from a variety of perspectives, I think one thing that hasn't been considered in this discussion yet is the principle that any modern vanilla game (or application for that matter) should remain as flexible as possible for outside modification or supplementation. In other words, I feel that the best compromise here is to build out the vanilla game exactly as The Fun Pimps want, but also do so in a way that allows modders to have something to work with. It is practically a standard nowadays that games (and applications) will see addons and modifications. People expect that. And after vanilla (anything) gets boring or repetitive, the thing that keeps people engaged until the next major update are mods and their modders. And if we're honest with ourselves, many great ideas are typically brought to light by the community - which is really driven by the creative minds of mod teams.

 

So I would challenge The Fun Pimps to release alpha 17 with the flexibility to have the same (or extended) functions present in alpha 16, where possible. The underlying scripting can be done in a way that gives flexibility to modders while still implementing vanilla in the way you want to see it released. It's just a decision your team has to make. And I would respectfully request that you sincerely consider that. Thank you.

[KhaineGB]

While I feel that many good points were made from a variety of perspectives, I think one thing that hasn't been considered in this discussion yet is the principle that any modern vanilla game (or application for that matter) should remain as flexible as possible for outside modification or supplementation. In other words, I feel that the best compromise here is to build out the vanilla game exactly as The Fun Pimps want, but also do so in a way that allows modders to have something to work with. It is practically a standard nowadays that games (and applications) will see addons and modifications. People expect that. And after vanilla (anything) gets boring or repetitive, the thing that keeps people engaged until the next major update are mods and their modders. And if we're honest with ourselves, many great ideas are typically brought to light by the community - which is really driven by the creative minds of mod teams.

 

So I would challenge The Fun Pimps to release alpha 17 with the flexibility to have the same (or extended) functions present in alpha 16, where possible. The underlying scripting can be done in a way that gives flexibility to modders while still implementing vanilla in the way you want to see it released. It's just a decision your team has to make. And I would respectfully request that you sincerely consider that. Thank you.

 

This is a good compromise.

 

I would be 100% ok with the current system provided the hook-ups are still present in the DLL so modders can put back the OLD system (or even a hybrid) if they so wish.

 

I'm actually going through the info dump that was posted in the other thread to see if I'm missing anything, and it looks like that MIGHT be possible... but it's a big might. I cannot say for certain.

[meganoth]

What's being shown off now? It's not amazing. It's very restrictive. ...

 

Adding in the ability to customize it more with the new buff/effect system (which is absolutely AMAZING from the info dump we got, so massive kudos to the team for that) is great, but for the love of god, at least leave the OLD code hook ups in the DLL for modders to use so we can put back 1-100 skills.

 

You might not want it. Joel and his brother might not want it. The users do.

 

I agree that it should be possible for modders to add back in the skills if modders want that.

 

But I also think that I want to try out the new system before making any judgement about it.

 

Everyone has to go out and kill zombies it doesn't matter what they do or want to do they have to go out and kill the monsters until they get that "PING YOU DID IT!" and then are allowed a perk.

 

??????? Harvesting, mining, scavenging/looting, building. killing zombies ALL give XP. In A16 digging sand was by far the fastest way to level.

 

I'd like to play a pacifist guy. Someone who sneaks in, loots, sneaks out, and make bases that let him live in the post-apocalyptic world without having to ever kill those who used to be human.

 

But it looks like that guy will be level 1 forever? How's that "play the game your way" and "have actual choice in character progression"?

 

Same answer as above. But you got a point in that ideally zombie killing shouldn't give XP, only looting, to make a pacifist run really comparable. But too many players can't accept killing without xp rewards. Maybe a mod or a later release will try that.

[dcsobral]

Another thing occurs to me. If you reduce the number of mechanics in the game, then the ones that are left better be damn good. And, as it happens, zombie fighting in 7 Days to Die sucks. Compare it to Dying Light, to give one example, and zombie fighting in 7 Days to Die looks like amateur stuff.

[meganoth]

The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

 

That is not like in real life. The orange pluckers don't learn anything about farming, neither do farm workers who do all the menial tasks of farming.

 

Actually farming is to a great extent a knowledge skill. And that knowledge was built up by early farmers for hundreds of years through experimentation. And in the previous century agricultural sciences were the driving force for finding new ways to get more out of a piece of land. So 'farm more' is again an abstraction of either decades of experimentation or reading a book about agriculture.

[spaced33]

That is not like in real life. The orange pluckers don't learn anything about farming, neither do farm workers who do all the menial tasks of farming.

 

Actually farming is to a great extent a knowledge skill. And that knowledge was built up by early farmers for hundreds of years through experimentation. And in the previous century agricultural sciences were the driving force for finding new ways to get more out of a piece of land. So 'farm more' is again an abstraction of either decades of experimentation or reading a book about agriculture.

 

A bit of an over simplification. The first time I cook a meal I’m not very good at it no matter how many YouTube clips or books I’ve read. The hundredth time I cook that meal I know what it should look and smell like at various stages and I can consistently produce a quality product.

 

Real life grinding definitely gives advancement

[toores]

It's an old classic system which is used by a lot of the most successful RPGs of all time. Why is this arcady?

 

Arcady because there is no connection between XP you're getting and skill you're gaining from it.

Also, many perks are arcady as well. In a survival game you shouldn't be able to shrug off diseases, you should struggle and deal with them.

[RestInPieces]

While I feel that many good points were made from a variety of perspectives, I think one thing that hasn't been considered in this discussion yet is the principle that any modern vanilla game (or application for that matter) should remain as flexible as possible for outside modification or supplementation. In other words, I feel that the best compromise here is to build out the vanilla game exactly as The Fun Pimps want, but also do so in a way that allows modders to have something to work with. It is practically a standard nowadays that games (and applications) will see addons and modifications. People expect that. And after vanilla (anything) gets boring or repetitive, the thing that keeps people engaged until the next major update are mods and their modders. And if we're honest with ourselves, many great ideas are typically brought to light by the community - which is really driven by the creative minds of mod teams.

 

So I would challenge The Fun Pimps to release alpha 17 with the flexibility to have the same (or extended) functions present in alpha 16, where possible. The underlying scripting can be done in a way that gives flexibility to modders while still implementing vanilla in the way you want to see it released. It's just a decision your team has to make. And I would respectfully request that you sincerely consider that. Thank you.

 

I agree in general but I think that is irrelevant to the discussion. Mods' job is enriching/modifying the game, not completing it or making it coherent/intuitive like, for example, making a game with various abstract systems synergize well with each other. That's what most people here worry about.

 

In a survival game you shouldn't be able to shrug off diseases, you should struggle and deal with them.

 

Definitely - an example where RPG elements essentially screw over the survival elements. But then again that seems to be the focus in the last few years, enemies being an example of this, arcade-y as you say, trend https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?90652-Generic-discussion-Enemies

[Gazz]

Being a huge gamer, not a dev, actions in games, like with any MMO, means something in one way or another. Any that has played EQ1 knows that skills are leveled by using them.

If you have played EQ1 then you know that most skills (like all combat, casting, or language ones) are leveled by running a macro and going AFK overnight.

A most innovative and exciting way to play a game.

[Roland]

Mods' job is enriching/modifying the game, not completing it or making it coherent/intuitive

 

That's an impossible standard to be able to please everyone. There are as many different definitions of what constitutes enriching/modifying/completing/making it coherent/making it intuitive as there are people playing the game. What seems unintuitive and incoherent to you is clear as crystal to me. What seems incomplete to me seems fully featured to you.

 

The devs are going to make their game and call it done at some point. Modders are going to do their thing. Tons of people will look at that as enriching and feel gratitude to both TFP and the modders. Tons of other people are going to look at the same thing and see it as completing and feel resentment and disappointment for TFP and gratitude to the modders.

 

Whatever.

[Soridar]

I think that's taking a somewhat rose coloured glass view of previous systems. For example, the "craft to learn" system, was perhaps more realistic, but crafting hundreds of stone axes wasn't particularly immersive either.

 

The problem is immersion is a subjective term. It is, as far as I can see, really dependent on whether you consider the activity you're immersing yourself in fun or not.

 

I do like the idea of learn through use, but often I've seen the implementation of it fall a little flat. So, I just look at mechanics now through a single viewpoint: Is it fun?

 

I think you are partially right, in the fact that immersion is in the eye of the player. Which is also where your other side of the argument fails. That being, TFP are trying to point us directly into a single play style. Not one of use this gun for best results, or build only this kind of base, but rather we mush kill zombies to level.

 

While I personally enjoy all forms of play in this game, I know many others who are very narrow in their focus of the game. Many are hunter/scavengers, which TFP will be rewarding, but many are also the backbone of team bases, mining/building/feeding those hunters when they come back to rest and recover. This is why mods like Valmod, WotW, RH and others with class systems were so widely praised.

 

On my server, as an example, we have about 4 teams, and in all of them, there are at least 1 member who does nothing but support work. One team took it so far as the support player, rather than fighting zombies on horde night was "heroically" repairing the base while his comrades valiantly fought off the onslaught. This might sound funny, but they were a new group, maybe on the server for 3-4 days, while the server was on day 300 in RH mod. They had a mostly wood/stone base fighting hardcore zombies, and lived, not because the fighters were super, but because the support guy kept them defended.

 

I tell this tale, because it shows that support players don't have to be Rambo to be valued members n a server. In harder mods like RH, those support players are actually the ones that make it more readily survivable for the fighters. So taking away the ability for modders to have classes that can level in alternate areas than fighting allows for much more healthy team play and much more intense later stage fighting. I will tell you now, there is nothing like fighting 40 zombies (8 per your team of 5) with only 3-4 fighters, while you have at least 1 support guy keeping the base from breaking and tossing out a few grenades or molitov's (cause hey, who said he had to not join in when able).

 

And btw, if you don't see how this is about immersive gameplay, I would like to point you to some widely liked zombie shows...The Walking Dead, Z Nation, Val Helsing (I know vamps not zombies, but the principle holds) and others...They all have characters that are focused in a few areas, but none can do it all solo for too long. You have the fighters, the scholars, the medics and the builders, some do 2 or 3 roles, but none are very skilled in everything. They NEED each other to truly survive, and THAT IS the KEY factor in these mods. That is what gets many of us deeply involved in our teams and our bases. Making all of us equal and all our play styles legit.

 

"I might not have built the base, but while hunting I was able to scavenge most of the parts used in making the blade traps and base lighting, also I brought home all those engines the genny runs on, this is my base too."

[meganoth]

Not one of use this gun for best results, or build only this kind of base, but rather we mush kill zombies to level.

 

While I personally enjoy all forms of play in this game, I know many others who are very narrow in their focus of the game. Many are hunter/scavengers, which TFP will be rewarding, but many are also the backbone of team bases, mining/building/feeding those hunters when they come back to rest and recover. This is why mods like Valmod, WotW, RH and others with class systems were so widely praised.

 

Since everyone gets XP from mining, building and farming in A17 exactly as in A16, how do you arrive at that conclusion?

[Soridar]

I know the "rules" aspect of playing this game is swinging towards unfavorable now a days, but on the surface this new system provides a LOT of room for spam levelling to perks that the player never really earned in the first place. For example Im great with a gun, but bad with melee. So I mine a LOT. If levelling from mining is still a thing then I use those points to get better killing zombies without ever having to killa zombie. Now I use that increase to easily kill mass zeds, and thusly turn around and dump those points into health and pill resistance.

 

Is that the kind of immersion you guys are reaching to achieve? Because I agree I dont want spam ANYTHING. Hell getting 5 headshots in a row with a pistol should increase your accuracy a point (maybe that IS a thing now) and I don't think people would push back against those being unfair rules to improving accuracy.

 

I mostly agree with this, mostly as in, I feel if you shoot a target 20-50-100-200...times you gain skill in that skill, and like the current system you gain lesser xp to your general level. As you skill up in that area (guns, clubs, farming, etc) you also grow in overall wisdom (aka your level) and as such, giving a few generic points to spend buying the first rank, or maybe the first few ranks in a general skill tree, as a way to open new talent trees for you to master.

 

A system I would love is where you have talent trees in the form of classes. Each new talent in a tree requires your generic skill point to open, where they raise in cost based on power of the skill. Then you need to use said skill in order to maximize it's function or bonuses it gives. This way you can regularly acquire more skills, but unless you use those skills they are only base bonuses or functions. In this way, solo players can over time, build a set of skills that enhances their play style but takes a fairly decent amount of time to flesh out. This also allows the team players to focus more on roles in the group, allowing them to prosper faster (rewarding cooperative play).

 

This system gives everyone the ability to become what they desire, and focuses enhancing what the player does, rather than just letting a single avenue of play dictate every other aspect of the game, in a rather narrow window of player desire. Think of this, how many servers are out there that are creation mode only, not a zombie one in the game, that should go to show you haw many people enjoy just the harvesting, salvaging and building aspect of this game. Why shun them for loving your game?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Since everyone gets XP from mining, building and farming in A17 exactly as in A16, how do you arrive at that conclusion?

 

 

From what I was reading, it seemed more like the only solid way to level was killing.

[StabbyU2]

In my Opinion TFP have been trying to make the game more simple with every alpha then just throwing a shiny new thing out to hide that like distant terrain distant POI's things of that nature but this new perk system is not the way 7 days should be going. This is a survival game in a zombie setting if people can't get better at things like mining and building and farming by doing them then that takes A lot of the survivalist aspects out of the game and just leaves us more with a game like dying light with a destructible world and building minus the parkour. that is not the way most of the user base thinks the game should go. I know that plenty of people are going to just say deal with it but if the devs didn't want people to voice their opinions then why even have this forum?

[RestInPieces]

That's an impossible standard to be able to please everyone. There are as many different definitions of what constitutes enriching/modifying/completing/making it coherent/making it intuitive as there are people playing the game. What seems unintuitive and incoherent to you is clear as crystal to me. What seems incomplete to me seems fully featured to you.

 

There are some things that are not subjective. Tastes are subjective, but I am not only talking about tastes. I am talking about the occasion that one feature in the game cancels out another feature in the same game, or makes it obsolete. By any standard, this cannot be considered as intuitive or even cohesive design.

 

Just to note - this game has been tagged and described as survival, among other things. The survival genre's definition is also not something abstract or subjective (if it was, most rpg games out there could be tagged as survival).

 

 

-Ignoring the fact that most games which include survival in their genre's description, strive for "realism" (as well as this game - not in all of its aspects though), let's say that the way your character progresses, which is mainly discussed in this thread, is only a matter of tastes.

 

-RPG-like elements making the need for survival rather obsolete or "lite" (and lack of other features like food spoilage or important resource sinks) would be incohesive design. Are you familiar with the term "gameplay loop"?. This just works against the game's own gameplay loop, when it could even complement it. Survival and RPG elements must each contribute to the gameplay loop, not sabotage each other.

 

As I said earlier I don't know if that will be the case with the perks in A17 - many things have been changed, so I will have to experience it myself.