Kinyajuu Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Speaking of XML: Might you be willing and allowed to share some more information about those? To pass the time? I'd be interested in an array of things. Could you maybe even provide the complete xml-files, so I can have a look? Certainly, other modders would be interested too. If any of that is possible, I suggest you open a thread in the modding forum or prompt me to do so. hahaha how adorable... and highly unlikely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubikus Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 hahaha how adorable... and highly unlikelyMy interest is amusing how and the code is a big secret why..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 "Accusing" people of being burned out when they criticise essential features of the game is another shaming tactic. I made it clear that it was a hypothesis and I also offered the alternative hypothesis that the game might have gone in a direction that is not where you want it to go. Which seems to be the correct explanation judging by your next few paragraphs. No sweat, I believe you. If that is indeed the case, y'all do have an argument and I was underinformed. If, however, and your 2nd reason indicates that's the case, loot is simply severely reduced, y'all have no argument, because if y'all just dislike looting corpses and are fine with a severe reduction of loot, y'all could just not loot corpses, but let us, who like the looting, continue to loot. Cuz we would we have to miss out, because y'all can't control y'allselves. First of all, yes, in sum the loot on zombies will probably be less than A16. If you find loot on a zombie, it will be much better than now, but it doesn't look like it will fully compensate for all the empty corpses. But loot in pois will be upped and THAT should compensate for less zombie loot. And yes, I could elect to not loot corpses. Have done that at the last horde night actually. Small disadvantage would be I could not walk or run at normal speed around my base in SP, or at least two of my friends on our MP-server would not like our good looking base looking like burried unter s***. Another disadvantage would be if the loot stays on the zombies it won't be found in the pois. Balance between me as scavenger and my co-op players (one other scavenger, two builders/minser) on our servers might also not work as good as intented. Another thing is immersion. It just doesn't work as well if you have to pretend that there is nothing when clearly there is something there. I would have no problem with installing a mod to change it, except that making the mod myself is a lot of work and more importantly combining such a mod with another mod (like Darkness Falls for example) is almost impossible at the moment. And we often play a mod on our server. Yes, I could elect to not loot corpses if it is really neccessary. But still it would be much better if it is already in the base game. So if someone asks me "Would I like the game better if it had less loot on zombies than in A16?" my answer would be "yes". Not sure if I understand you right. Stealth means avoiding zombies. So it means not killing them, thus not getting loot from them. And you dislike that people who kill zombies get.. more loot? No. It has nothing to do with other people. It has to do with a balanced game. Just like I prefer in an RPG that I reach the same level and get the equivalent loot irrespective of my choices (i.e. it should not matter if I kill everyone or use the diplomatic route) I want to look at a zombie without making the meta calculation that stealthing around will disadvantage me. I probably will resist that thought most of the time, but I can't avoid making this comparison in my mind all the time and be influenced by it. And it will diminish my immersion and pleasure playing the game. So if someone asks me, again, for that reason I would say yes. It is also my opinion that it makes a better game out of it, because just on a theoretical level all players are given a choice which is balanced. And yes, it is balanced, you might save ammunition if you stealth but are disadvantaged if you are discovered and stealthing around can take more time than blazing through with your guns. A simple "vote" doesn't matter, I need reasons. I brought up my opinion and the vote because you stated that you have not heard of anyone positive about the change and a huge opposition. I disproved this, not more, not less. ... When the devs decided to reduce backward sprinting speed immensely, they might not have thought about people who literally love to fight hordes of running zombies on the ground. They might've only thought about making melee more difficult. I'm not sure, but it is possible. Yes, possible. They make many changes and for each change they compare advantages and disadvantages, where they want to go with their game and how it fits in with all the other changes and existing features. And I'm sure in very very seldom cases there really might be a reason they 1) had overlooked and 2) is relevant to how they want the core game to be and 3) is strong enough to make them reconsider even BEFORE trying it out. The question is: Would it be efficient to keep the whole forum up-to-date on any change they do and why they do it and how it is linked with other features and changes. Then listen to the whole forum posting hundreds of illogical arguments, emotional arguments, arguments based on wanting a different game than what they want (and each argument multiple times) to find that one reason in one case of many that really makes them reconsider? TFP might know. Maybe in the first few alphas the forum was small enough to do this. I don't think it is efficient. Backpedaling probably can be reversed in less than 10 minutes. Loot drop rate probably in 1-2 hours with a revision control system no problem, to just give an estimate about the two changes we are talking about. Would elaborate more if it wasn't 5 in the morning now. Maybe an indicator how much time developers could waste in a forum Just because you might indeed have 1 weak argument, I'm not the wrongest person in the known universe, so calm down a little. I used strong words because you dismissed/redefined my previous approval of loot-reduction as merely "acceptance" and then ignored this and the story about the votes totally to make that conclusion. Took me quite by surprise how I could be so much misunderstood. I wanted to make sure I don't have to argue that point a third time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Sure. In 1 sentence, that is part of a much longer post, I criticise moderation a bit. You pick up that 1 sentence - ignore most of the rest of the post, cept you kindly examine the xml-files, as I asked - , and write a fairly lengthy post to declare my criticism wrong. You, as I phrased it in my unconventional style, "beat my criticism to crap", instead of considering that it might be valid. So the way you deal with my criticism is an example of what I criticise and - isn't it ironic? - evidence that my criticism is valid. Not proof, certainly, but it is not the only evidence and example, however, I did and do not wish to have a lengthy discussion about it, that would lead this thread off topic. Speaking of XML: Might you be willing and allowed to share some more information about those? To pass the time? I'd be interested in an array of things. Could you maybe even provide the complete xml-files, so I can have a look? Certainly, other modders would be interested too. If any of that is possible, I suggest you open a thread in the modding forum or prompt me to do so. I think you are seeing things that aren't there, mate. You were having a discussion with Meganoth and as part of it you made a claim about me. I looked into it and disagreed. Your response was that you just quoted the wrong post or something. So here is my post you are claiming is ironically an example of the poor way in which I criticize criticism. Now wait a sec. On the first page I re-read my post and there isn't an ounce of condescension to it. I was strictly informative friendly....maybe a bit cavalier in saying that backward sprinting was the lesser of the two changes that would affect running and gunning-- the worse one being horrible accuracy unless you stop and aim. I tried to read it every which way I could to make it sound snide and condescending and just couldn't do it. er....Projection maybe...? Now post 29......yes, I'll cop to that. But in fairness that was someone exaggerating timelines and it had nothing to do with the thread topic. Timelines are simple math and I got the sense he was being dishonest to try and make a point. I do tend to get snarky in the face of dishonesty. True. I take it this part above is what you refer to as me pick out one single line of your post. My opinion right now on this topic is that the removal of backward sprinting is good for combat with walking zombies. I can understand the criticism of its removal when battling running zombies. I personally think that being able to run backwards at the speed we can in pre-A17 while shooting zombies is unrealistic and puts the game in a more arcadey feel than a survival horror feel. However, I also know that by making this shift they are removing something that is admittedly fun which is always disappointing. The running and gunning abilities we had in A16 and earlier tend to reduce the fear you have in going out at night or meeting a feral during the day. Sprinting backwards means that if you keep your wits you are almost guaranteed to win in such a battle. Not being able to run and knowing you can't means going out where running enemies might be is going to be a huge risk. It makes it thrilling and scary knowing you very well could die if you get more than two enemies that can run hunting you. It is a tough one and we will have to see how things go during experimental. I have no idea whether backwards speed is moddable which is why I didn't answer. Where would I look for player character attributes like speed etc? I'm happy to try and find it and see if there is a value on it that can be changed. And this part right here is where I then criticize your criticism and "beat it to crap"? If that is what you are saying and how you feel then I really do apologize as it wasn't my intent. I simply felt you were wrong about me in the post you referenced and wanted to defend my honor so to speak. Then I simply expressed my own opinion about the topic. If you wanted me to acknowledge the parts of your argument that I agreed with I'm happy to do so. I agree with you that removing the backward run is going to erase the fun that people who like to run and gun vs running zombies have enjoyed in the past. I think you brought up good points about how tedious it is to run forward and then turn and get a couple shots off before having to turn and run forward again. I can understand the sentiment about wanting to have an option or at least a value left in the xmls to be able to mod it so that those who have that fun can still enjoy it if they want without harming those who are fine with the nerf and want to play the game vanilla. I also agree that if TFP can continue to work at improving melee combat in general that would be great. I haven't played Dead Island so I can't speak to whether I would like that personally or not. I agree that acknowledging other viewpoints to show I've heard and understand and mentioning those areas of common ground we might have is a more civilized and gracious form of discourse rather than simply staying silent about the things I might agree on and only debating the parts I disagree with. I'll try and raise the bar going forward. I don't agree with some of what you have posted about criticism but I'll keep it focused on the positive and just say thanks for your feedback about the way the mod staff handles criticism in the forum and we will strive to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warmer Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 I think having a % chance to trip running backwards would actually be really cool and realistic. Make it a 33% chance of falling down if sprinting backwards and hitting an object other than the floor. That to me feels somewhat balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 I think having a % chance to trip running backwards would actually be really cool and realistic. Make it a 33% chance of falling down if sprinting backwards and hitting an object other than the floor. That to me feels somewhat balanced. That isn't going to satisfy the critics of this decision. The criticism, if I have understood correctly, boils down to the opinion that nerfing backward movement is not fun for those who enjoy battling it out with running zombies and lessens the fun of melee combat in general because the player will feel less agile. Slowing backward movement will ruin the fun. Tripping the player 33% of the time will ruin the fun. The only way to not ruin the fun in the minds of the critics is to leave rapid backward movement in the game. Critics who know how to mod say they would be happy with a way to mod backward movement speed. At the end of all the metaphors about strawberries, mangoes, pineapples, and parallels about spam-crafting it really just comes down to how people like to have fun and in that sense the criticism is perfectly valid. TFP IS removing the old fun and it IS disappointing to those who enjoyed that fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prisma501 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 My interest is amusing how and the code is a big secret why..? I guess because you are not pimps staff. Period. Nothing fancy at all. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pizzalicious Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Not to worry, we can still run around in a circle like we would do in real life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Don't forget to frantically wave your arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimstone Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 it really just comes down to how people like to have fun and in that sense the criticism is perfectly valid. TFP IS removing the old fun and it IS disappointing to those who enjoyed that fun. This really is the heart of it, but then it comes down to a segment of the player base that want to impose that particular playstyle on all others. I'm more of a fan of being able to customize, which is admittedly something that really has no place in Alpha because it interferes with the devs attempting to bughunt and optimize. As an example, I'll go back to my suggestion re: tripping. Assuming it was implemented, it would only need two variables to be exposed in order to be modded back out: "chance to trip percent" and "backwards run speed max". OTOH, it would be difficult (read probably impossible) to mod tripping into the game without large portions of code being exposed, the idea of which Kinjayuu so wisely squashed- because 1) it opens up the possibility of exploits; and 2) it would permit someone to plunder TFP's hard work and use it themselves elsewhere for free. TL;DR: it's probably easier on the devs to try new things that other players might like to have in the game while allowing for them to be modded out for other playstyles, than to try to rely on modders for additional gameplay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StompyNZ Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 you can still run and gun, you just have to do it in the direction non mutants can run (i.e. forwards) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubikus Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 First of all, yes, in sum the loot on zombies will probably be less than A16. If you find loot on a zombie, it will be much better than now, but it doesn't look like it will fully compensate for all the empty corpses. But loot in pois will be upped and THAT should compensate for less zombie loot. Where are these informations coming from, btw? And yes, I could elect to not loot corpses. Have done that at the last horde night actually. Small disadvantage would be I could not walk or run at normal speed around my base in SP, or at least two of my friends on our MP-server would not like our good looking base looking like burried unter s***. Another disadvantage would be if the loot stays on the zombies it won't be found in the pois. Balance between me as scavenger and my co-op players (one other scavenger, two builders/minser) on our servers might also not work as good as intented. Another thing is immersion. It just doesn't work as well if you have to pretend that there is nothing when clearly there is something there. I would have no problem with installing a mod to change it, except that making the mod myself is a lot of work and more importantly combining such a mod with another mod (like Darkness Falls for example) is almost impossible at the moment. And we often play a mod on our server. Yes, I could elect to not loot corpses if it is really neccessary. But still it would be much better if it is already in the base game. So if someone asks me "Would I like the game better if it had less loot on zombies than in A16?" my answer would be "yes". But you still could (just) elect not to loot corpses. That would solve your... issue. Cuz it's not really a problem. You wouldn't (even) have to pretend there is no loot, just stand by your decision that you prefer to spend your time with something else. I don't loot every trashbag in sight, it's not worth my time. I don't loot every zombie I kill either. And btw, if zombies are already dead, what's the big difference between looting a zombie and looting a trashbag? It's the same process. The killing itself makes the difference, and it's time consuming and it's resource consuming, it can be risky, so loot as a reward is well deserved. Btw would it be simple to remove loot from zombies. Just make an empty loot list use it for every zombies. 10 minutes of work max. No. It has nothing to do with other people. It has to do with a balanced game. Just like I prefer in an RPG that I reach the same level and get the equivalent loot irrespective of my choices (i.e. it should not matter if I kill everyone or use the diplomatic route) I want to look at a zombie without making the meta calculation that stealthing around will disadvantage me. I probably will resist that thought most of the time, but I can't avoid making this comparison in my mind all the time and be influenced by it. And it will diminish my immersion and pleasure playing the game. So if someone asks me, again, for that reason I would say yes. It is also my opinion that it makes a better game out of it, because just on a theoretical level all players are given a choice which is balanced. And yes, it is balanced, you might save ammunition if you stealth but are disadvantaged if you are discovered and stealthing around can take more time than blazing through with your guns. I don't quite get the whole "balance" argument. Do you not get enough loot from other sources than zombies? Does the loot outside zombies have to be increased? And is that only possible if loot inside zombies is decreased? I wouldn't know why. Zombie loot is relatively low quality, bit of brass, bit of lead, bit of metal, glass jars, some canned food. It sounds much like you decide not to utilize a playstyle, that is killing zombies, but expect the game to give you the loot it gives to someone who does utilize that playstyle on top of your playstyle - and if it does not, it should not give that loot to the other someone. Why should the game do that? If you stealth, you don't use your weapon, you don't need to craft ammo, gather the resources, you take less of a risk. Furhtermore, when loot is being removed from zombies, people who do not kill zombies have the advantage over people who do kill zombies. Killing zombies offers barely a reward anymore, then. I either still don't quite understand or you're simply selfish. If you can't have it, because you don't want to put in the work, others, who do put in the work, also should not have it. That would not have anything to do with balance. I brought up my opinion and the vote because you stated that you have not heard of anyone positive about the change and a huge opposition. I disproved this, not more, not less. It's much like people who argue with "realism" in the backpedaling case. I simply don't count them. I might, if they'd argue to make everything in the game as realistic as possible. But as long as they're just fine with making something they don't use or care about realistic, but want to keep unrealistic features that they happen to like and use, they are... well... Let's call it "inconsistent in their reasoning". Which invalidates their reasoning. The argument, however, that looting hundreds of zombies is tedious, is valid, and if a few lootdrops would give you what many gave you before, if loot was concentrated in those bags, and we'd not have empty corpse containers anymore, I'd too vote for it. Yes, possible. See. That's all we need. They make many changes and for each change they compare advantages and disadvantages, where they want to go with their game and how it fits in with all the other changes and existing features. And I'm sure in very very seldom cases there really might be a reason they 1) had overlooked and 2) is relevant to how they want the core game to be and 3) is strong enough to make them reconsider even BEFORE trying it out. We don't know how rare these cases are, though, and things already are being discussed on the forums, before they go into the game, so once more: It's a perfectly plausible practice. The question is: Would it be efficient to keep the whole forum up-to-date on any change they do and why they do it and how it is linked with other features and changes. Then listen to the whole forum posting hundreds of illogical arguments, emotional arguments, arguments based on wanting a different game than what they want (and each argument multiple times) to find that one reason in one case of many that really makes them reconsider? TFP might know. Maybe in the first few alphas the forum was small enough to do this. I don't think it is efficient. It's so funny how you portray the concept in the worst possible way. Devs have to spent thousands of hours to read millions of moronic comments. C'mon. Backpedaling probably can be reversed in less than 10 minutes. Loot drop rate probably in 1-2 hours with a revision control system no problem, to just give an estimate about the two changes we are talking about. Would elaborate more if it wasn't 5 in the morning now. Maybe an indicator how much time developers could waste in a forum Plays not much of a role if it's easy or not, when it's not being done. 1 block ingress is not moddable, the static spawner is not moddable, chessboard cities are not moddable. I used strong words because you dismissed/redefined my previous approval of loot-reduction as merely "acceptance" and then ignored this and the story about the votes totally to make that conclusion. Took me quite by surprise how I could be so much misunderstood. I wanted to make sure I don't have to argue that point a third time. I'm not sure I misunderstood you at all. I don't think the one good reason in the vote-thread is your reason. I don't think your "balance" reason is valid. I don't think your "I don't like the thought that there are loot containers that I don't loot" argument is valid. That's like I would vote for removing electricity because I don't like using it. Or vehicles. Or gardening. Or hunting. Remove what I don't use, so I don't feel bad for not getting the advantage those who do use it get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubikus Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 I think you are seeing things that aren't there, mate. You were having a discussion with Meganoth and as part of it you made a claim about me. I looked into it and disagreed. Your response was that you just quoted the wrong post or something. So here is my post you are claiming is ironically an example of the poor way in which I criticize criticism. It all began here: https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?86652-is-A17-removing-the-much-beloved-run-and-gun-aspect&p=843156&viewfull=1#post843156 So overall: Yes, I do believe that Joel didn't know that people dislike the changes. If he did, he must've lied/pretended in his video. I also believe that the company overall might be a bit out of touch with what the players really want and what they are passionate about, because the forums are heavily moderated. Youtube comments seem to have no moderation, go to Joel's videos and compare the climate there and here. There, blunt criticism is very prominent. Here, blunt criticism is either moderated or responded to with a wide array of rethorics. For example, the backpedaling is sorta playstyle shamed by Gazz. It'd be some kind of cheap trick to play that way. In #46 he calls it a "cheesy backpedaling "tactic"", in #79 he writes "The thread title is also highly misleading because it's really about infinite backpedaling with trivial risk, not run&gun gameplay." It's not run & gun when you run with your gun and fight running zombie hordes, and the greatest risk available in the game would be "trivial". Kinyajuu said "Also I'm an avid FPS player and run n gun is not at all going to suffer in a17." in post #20. Roland's posts on the first page at least are fairly condescending, when someone makes a mistake or so, see #29. I made two mistakes: I speak of "posts", when it really is just one that is fairly condescending, and it is not on the first, but the 2nd page. You do, however, make condescending posts frequently, that's why I used the technically wrong numerus. Up there in the quote you can see the context why I mention you in 1 sentence. Compare (probably unmoderated) Youtube comments with the local forum. Big difference. So there might be a disconnect between the company and the customer. Might. I'm speculating. I also mention that in the post here: https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?86652-is-A17-removing-the-much-beloved-run-and-gun-aspect&p=843323&viewfull=1#post843323 I write 1 sentence about moderation and such. Well. Actually it is, if we count my explanation that your post, that I mention before, was on the 2nd, instead of the 1st page, 4 sentences. And then I write a bunch about the thread's topic. I also lay out, in some detail, a method that I use to make the game more difficult, one I consider to be much better (and more elegant) than just crippling the player. Now, I don't mind if you ignore all that, but when you write me a novel about some mild 1 sentence-criticism of how this board is moderated and ignore much more sentences about the game, it looks like you're fairly interested in beating criticism to crap. And not so much to discuss alternatives to the devs' solution to make the game harder. Btw, when I write "I don't mind if you ignore all", that does not mean I'm not interested. I would indeed be interested what you think about my solution. What you think about the game's design of making zombies very weak. Already on the first day, if you wear no clothing, no armor and have only 100 wellness, a trash mob can hit you ten times before you die. When you are maxed out, 250 wellness (max wellness in my mod is 150 btw), best armor, it should converge towards 50 times. And when they look for way to make the game harder and "zombies more dangerous", they don't tweak that, but remove abilities..? Reduce fun? Melee already was stale, compared to other games. Now it's getting even more boring. I doubt the power attack will change that, you cannot use it often and the actual gameplay is barely different from a normal attack. You hold the mousebutton down longer. At least the animation looks different, that's a big plus. Moving backwards fast is much more dynamic, because it changes your position. Much more happens, with movement, you create "a new situation", so to speak. Really, the more you think about it, the more you wonder what they were thinking. No surprise the only argument you hear is "it's more realistic" and some "git gud" rethorics. No u! At designing interesting game mechnics. Plz no ban tho. -.- That isn't going to satisfy the critics of this decision. The criticism, if I have understood correctly, boils down to the opinion that nerfing backward movement is not fun for those who enjoy battling it out with running zombies and lessens the fun of melee combat in general because the player will feel less agile. Slowing backward movement will ruin the fun. Tripping the player 33% of the time will ruin the fun. The only way to not ruin the fun in the minds of the critics is to leave rapid backward movement in the game. Critics who know how to mod say they would be happy with a way to mod backward movement speed. At the end of all the metaphors about strawberries, mangoes, pineapples, and parallels about spam-crafting it really just comes down to how people like to have fun and in that sense the criticism is perfectly valid. TFP IS removing the old fun and it IS disappointing to those who enjoyed that fun. Being one of those critics, I may repeat what I already said: I would not at all mind some alterations to the mechanic, as long as the playstyle itself is not destroyed. I still want to have that satisfaction of shooting running zombies in the head while I'm running myself. If falling would be possible, I'd propose a mechanic like this: The chance of falling is increasing over time and can be reset by stopping for a while, either running forward or standing still, in any case, the backward running key has to be released, say for something like 5 seconds. So running backwards is mostly save for a while, maybe... 5 - 10 seconds, but if you wanted to run for minutes, the risk would grow and grow. Very arcady and gamey and unrealistic would be if you could decrease the risk by killing zombies. So you'd get a reward for precision. I guess because you are not pimps staff. Period. Nothing fancy at all. Cheers Call me crazy, but I find that argument a lot more adorable than my request. *shrugs* you can still run and gun, you just have to do it in the direction non mutants can run (i.e. forwards) Oh, realism had been mentioned once or twice already. Did you know the game's chainsaw is powered by a car engine..? As long as there are such absurdities in the game, realism is quite certainly not the reason for any changes or removals. And in this case, the reason is to have the player die more often. The creative minds over at TFP studios think the best way to achieve that is to cripple the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 @kub 1 block crouch is most definitely moddable. At least 2 different methods. Check Medieval Mod and any of Sphereii's mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubikus Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 @kub 1 block crouch is most definitely moddable. At least 2 different methods. Check Medieval Mod and any of Sphereii's mods.Lemme guess: It's dll modding or SDX? The stuff with the long and steep learning curve, that allows modding things that aren't meant to be modded by the devs? If not, I'd love to learn how it can be done with XML modding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 One is sdx (Sphereii's), the other is modding the unexposed xml using uabe (my method). ...and sdx modding has come a long way. Even retards like myself, Khaine, Tsbx, Jax, and many, many others can do it. People new to modding are jumping right into it. And, it's going to be even easier. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubikus Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 One is sdx (Sphereii's), the other is modding the unexposed xml using uabe (my method).What's uabe? ...and sdx modding has come a long way. Even retards like myself, Khaine, Tsbx, Jax, and many, many others can do it. People new to modding are jumping right into it. And, it's going to be even easier. Just saying.Hm. How much time does one have to invest to get some basic stuff going? Are there tutorials and such? I wouldn't even know where to start. I once looked into it, even had some dll-viewer, but could not get anything done, I never even recognized any of the code, as in, I never even could understand what a piece of the dll-code was supposed to do. I think it's somehow... encrypted or so. I am not following that branch of modding at all, so I'm certainly ignorant. Edit: Now I know what uabe is: https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?22675-Unity-Assets-Bundle-Extractor Follow-up question: Where do I find unexposed xml-files? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjiro Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 The problem is that the Devs know only one solution. Their solution ... And everybody needs to swallow that as a solution for a problem. SpamCrafting was considered a issue. Yet, by simply increasing the crafting times, it solves the issue ( partially ) with a 60 second timer. Now, people are limited in their spamcrafting. But what if people still spamcraft and pollute servers. Why not add the ability for items to decay faster depending on the type. People drop things, after X time they are gone. You know, like a tracing garbage collector. Problem solved. Now we need to use perks to magically improve the tools. What can only be considered dumbing down the game because people simply save up perks for level 5/10/... In the past the crafting was more complex and rewarding. Most of the popular mods seems to re-introduce this complexity. You can clearly tell that the Devs do not look at what is popular among the mods. Reducing the whole crafting was another form of dumbing down the content. But the mods have there hands tied by the Devs. More complex crafting means more recipes. More recipes means a slower and painful lagging menu. A major issue that the Devs have know for several alpha releases as a issue ( going back years in other words ). Now we are moving to restrict even more the game by forcing people to dungeon crawl all the houses. At the same time things like run-and-gun being restricted. Some people like this style of gameplay but this is NOT the 7D2D that i ordered. The old 72D2 felt more like pre-trammel Ultime Online. If the choice was given to me today, based upon A17, i will not have ordered 7D2D. I am sorry to say this but if i wanted to play 7D2EverQuest, i will buy a real MMORPG. And you can feel that this is where the devs want to go towards. Restricting more and more to control how people play the game. It has been going on over a series of Alpha releases. One can even say that the whole restricting is to push 7D2D in a more Horror style with Dungeons, Hidden trapdoors, Hidden Zombies, restricting the player movement. The good news is that more and more games are coming out that actually embrace the "old" style of 7D2D gameplay with crafting and survival. Normally as customer you can vote with your money. You like a product, they get your money. But in 7D2D with its years of alpha's, they simply have already taken the money from the people like me and it makes them not accountable anymore. Before it was the more survival/building type the devs drew in, now it seems they want more the mmorpg like gameplay players they want. Running out of money devs and looking for new player groups, because it comes over like this to me? Here is a idea... give people who original buy the game under different promises their money back, so they can buy the competitors games. I bet that will not happen I learned my lesson that talking about not liking where the game goes, is useless. People on the forum here are actively rabbit about negative feedback and most people simply give up. Because no matter how much your against some of those ideas, they will get implemented anyway, and you will be forced to like them, even if you do not like them. This is why there is such a big discrepancy between the forums here and on outside forums like steam, youtube etc. Even on the 7D2D sales page, you can tell that 7D2D is banking on its old reputation and reviews where as the recent reviews have gotten more and more negative about the changes and expected changes. But who are we to even mention these things. Its a shame what the game has turned into. Now A17 will come out a year too late and the people who liked the old 7D2D will need to wait months again, for the mod authors to fix / undo much of the 7D2D dev critical changes. And then the people can AGAIN not enjoy there mods because inner updates can break the saves again. And people are strung along and along, playing but waiting, playing again but waiting... Peace out all ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Where are these informations coming from, btw? From posts by Roland and developers. But you still could (just) elect not to loot corpses. That would solve your... issue. Cuz it's not really a problem. You wouldn't (even) have to pretend there is no loot, just stand by your decision that you prefer to spend your time with something else. I don't loot every trashbag in sight, it's not worth my time. I don't loot every zombie I kill either. And btw, if zombies are already dead, what's the big difference between looting a zombie and looting a trashbag? It's the same process. The killing itself makes the difference, and it's time consuming and it's resource consuming, it can be risky, so loot as a reward is well deserved. Yes, I don't loot every trashbag because I (the survivor in the game) make a decision that the loot is not worth it at this time and place. But if I have time, I'll still loot a trashbag. That is a decision I can make any time in the game. If I wanted to have no zombie loot I would have to prevent myself from looting any zombie corpse. Do zombie corpses get removed eventually from the game? Not sure, but I think not. Around my base that would be a lot of stuff to ignore, especially since it slows movement. I did say that all those disadvantages are not big. In sum they still are not big, but it still means I like the game better with less zombie loot. I don't quite get the whole "balance" argument. Do you not get enough loot from other sources than zombies? Does the loot outside zombies have to be increased? And is that only possible if loot inside zombies is decreased? I wouldn't know why. Zombie loot is relatively low quality, bit of brass, bit of lead, bit of metal, glass jars, some canned food. The balance argument is important to how the game feels. For example my friends and I played the "War of the Walkers" once. At the time (I heard recently, it may have changed) you got a lot more loot than in vanilla and it also had some extreme POIs with too many and too good loot containers. Finding lets say a complete high quality gun on day 4 was surely nice at that moment. But the game itself lost its appeal and we restarted with a different mod after maybe 2 in-game weeks. That is "balance" or better said the absence of it. Naturally somewhat subjective. If we really had wanted to play WotW, we could have modded the mod, or tried with 25% loot and hope it balances out. Or only loot every second container. We didn't. And I also don't know if less loot on zombies will really be better for us. That we will have to see and experience. It sounds much like you decide not to utilize a playstyle, that is killing zombies, but expect the game to give you the loot it gives to someone who does utilize that playstyle on top of your playstyle - and if it does not, it should not give that loot to the other someone. Why should the game do that? If you stealth, you don't use your weapon, you don't need to craft ammo, gather the resources, you take less of a risk. Furhtermore, when loot is being removed from zombies, people who do not kill zombies have the advantage over people who do kill zombies. Killing zombies offers barely a reward anymore, then. "playstyle" as a word is used much too often in this forum. Every single action anyone does can be styled a "playstyle" and then protection of that demanded. If I want to also play stealthy it doesn't mean I will not kill zombies, it just does mean that I will decide in any moment in the game how a specific problem (for example a poi with zombies) is dealt with. I don't playstyle stealth, I don't playstyle combat, those are just different methods in the arsenal I will employ at different times or even at the same time (stealth to a good position and kill the zombie). I play the whole game and so for me MY stealth has to be in some balance with MY combat or I probably won't use it much. Also interesting will be if my perception of zombies as loot bringers will change and if I will view them as dangers now. If you think stealth visa combat is already well balanced and balance will be lost now, that is a valid opinion. Actually playing the game will show if it is. I'm pretty sure people (including myself) will still kill lots and lots of zombies. It's much like people who argue with "realism" in the backpedaling case. I simply don't count them. I might, if they'd argue to make everything in the game as realistic as possible. But as long as they're just fine with making something they don't use or care about realistic, but want to keep unrealistic features that they happen to like and use, they are... well... Let's call it "inconsistent in their reasoning". Which invalidates their reasoning. It is totally fine to say someone brought up a false argument and his reason is invalid. But claim that therefore he and his opinion does not exist is, lets say not good for communication, we should use words that mostly mean the same to everyone. We don't know how rare these cases are, though, and things already are being discussed on the forums, before they go into the game, so once more: It's a perfectly plausible practice. Yes plausible. But I think the less people on the forum the better it can work. In a company meetings only work well up to a specific size, above that everyone is wasting time. If they directly involve the forum in the process of discussing potential features, it looks for me very much like a big meeting, made more difficult by having too many interests at work here. It may yield some gems, no question, but I think practical testing is just so much more valuable because in a way it tests the honest reaction to changes, not assumptions of players. It's so funny how you portray the concept in the worst possible way. Devs have to spent thousands of hours to read millions of moronic comments. Nah, I just know how much time I spend reading the Developer Diary thread and wow, better not think about it. Maybe try it yourself. Keep up a few days with that thread and look how much time you spent. Sure, at the moment 80% is off-topic, but I don't think it will be less if feature details were discussed and everyone would post opinions about them. Plays not much of a role if it's easy or not, when it's not being done. 1 block ingress is not moddable, the static spawner is not moddable, chessboard cities are not moddable. Ok, but with these we are really outside of what you seem to have proposed, right? You originally wanted to give input to the developers to prevent oversights, right? But there is no oversight with 1 block ingress for example. Some want it but the developers think it not important enough compared to the effort to put it into A17 (presumably, or there are other reasons). So in this case you want to have influence about which features are given priority. Understandable, I would want that too. But I also understand that the developers do not want to give us that power. It is their game. If you brought these examples only to illustrate features that are hard to mod, sure, they never have been implemented. But there is nothing worthwile for TFP to discuss about them with the community, except if they want the community to really decide something. I'm not sure I misunderstood you at all. I don't think the one good reason in the vote-thread is your reason. I don't think your "balance" reason is valid. I don't think your "I don't like the thought that there are loot containers that I don't loot" argument is valid. That's like I would vote for removing electricity because I don't like using it. Or vehicles. Or gardening. Or hunting. Remove what I don't use, so I don't feel bad for not getting the advantage those who do use it get. It is easier to ignore vehicles or gardening than hundreds of zombie corpses. Ignoring the corpses is just a crutch. And I probably wouldn't do it in A17, I didn't in A16 either, as the balance isn't completely off (not like in the old WotW). But knowing it could have been I would miss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedo Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 <snip> You know that you still can play those older versions, right? You still have access to the "7D2D that you ordered." Anyway, see ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 @kub https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?72888-7D2D-SDX-Tutorials-and-Modding-Kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubikus Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 @kub https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?72888-7D2D-SDX-Tutorials-and-Modding-KitThanks. Is there also a tutorial for the uabe thing? Where those hidden xml-files are? How to get started editing these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Thanks. Is there also a tutorial for the uabe thing? Where those hidden xml-files are? How to get started editing these? Literally everything should/will be in the link. It's still a WiP but will definitely get you started, AND is easy to use. I /think/ there is a later version of UABE available than what's in that toolkit, but other than DO THE TUTORIAL IN ORDER, I really don't have any other advice to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubikus Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Literally everything should/will be in the link. It's still a WiP but will definitely get you started, AND is easy to use. I /think/ there is a later version of UABE available than what's in that toolkit, but other than DO THE TUTORIAL IN ORDER,But there is nothing about uabe in that tutorial, so could you.. I really don't have any other advice to offer.Oh. Ok.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 ^^ I said GOOD DAY, SIR.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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