RestInPieces Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 There are mainly two options when it comes to the heatmap and building/defending a base above ground. First option is: exploit the heatmap, build most of your base and your heat generating items in a different chunk, live a bit further away, go back and forth to fetch items and be relatively safe. Second option is: ignore the heatmap, get out of the house to see several white-robed girls screaming, play whack-a-mole with the screamers among the normal zombies and kill the screamers so that they don't attract an exponential number of zombies, turn your forges etc on/off frantically, get eventually overrun and go to option A. According to wiki many actions/items also affect the heat map and the heat value also increases passively but from experience, choosing option B is deliberately choosing to put yourself in exponentially more danger since GPS screamers are much quicker to spawn around you. It is a survival game after all and the player is compelled to choose the most efficient option for this survival. What I don't like in this system: -If I want to survive efficiently, I have to choose option A, live/store my items in dark concrete base (steel also generates more heat), go back and forth all the time to fetch items (food, materials etc), get them fast and return fast to my storage base 1-2 chunks away. Going back and forth becomes a chore and the game compells you to consciously exploit the heatmap system to better his chances of survival all of which go against any TD/Survival concept. -Screamers. It seems they scream even if they don't detect a person, they are too linearly tied to the heat value, they are too frequent when heat value gets high and (aesthetically) they are a very specific type of zombie (white-robed The Ring-style girls). Surely, there will be more models for them in the future, but should they be their own species? Seems somewhat fake in my eyes (same with some other zombies). Them being less obvious, will not only add aesthetical but will mostly importantly add gameplay value. How I think it should be like: -If I want to survive efficiently, I would just have to plan/build good defenses (or play like a nomad if I choose to) and not have to run back and forth between two spots and consciously exploit the system to make things dramatically easier for me. -Screamers should only scream and attract zombies when they detect something edible. Heat should instead attract more normal wandering hordes of random sizes and fewer screamers. None of them should have a GPS, but give them a random vector towards your base with a random offset in order for them to be able to detect players through smell/sound/sight or just wander by near you without detecting you. Screamers should be rarer and perhaps "disguised" as normal zombies with a different e.g. face texture to hint the players that they are screamers. -Heatmap values should be rebalanced so that when the player progresses technologically and wants to build a fully equipped base, doesn't get punished for doing so without exploiting the heatmap chunk values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian9824 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Screamers only summon zombies if they see you so it already works that way. The horde they summon isn't very strong if you kill them quickly and the most basic defense will easily eliminate the horde meaning its pretty much a non issue dealing with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted May 16, 2018 Author Share Posted May 16, 2018 Screamers only summon zombies if they see you so it already works that way. The horde they summon isn't very strong if you kill them quickly and the most basic defense will easily eliminate the horde meaning its pretty much a non issue dealing with them Hm don't have the same experience on my settings. Anyway my concern is not about difficulty but about how the system works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombie4hire Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Screamers can summon tough zombies at later gamestages. I have seen it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamida Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Screamers only summon zombies if they see you so it already works that way. The horde they summon isn't very strong if you kill them quickly and the most basic defense will easily eliminate the horde meaning its pretty much a non issue dealing with them Don't know if it is a glitch or lag but I have killed screamers before they have screamed and have gotten the horde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSlayerGM Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Don't know if it is a glitch or lag but I have killed screamers before they have screamed and have gotten the horde. I think that sometimes they are just slow to detect you, so you kill them before they scream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianbluebeer Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 The biggest pain with the base far way, is moving things to it. Scavenge by day, then move the stuff at night. Cook things at night, keep the cooked foods at main base. I keep a workbench at the main area, mostly to combine parts that I find. But having the forges etc, about 3 chunks away, (and under a building) means I don't see the screamers. Yes, it's a PITA, but less so than actually having to deal with them. (which is why I call it a bait location) I have also killed them before they scream and still got the horde. Mind you, I've also seen them just run in circles totally confused (which makes it hard to shoot them of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted May 16, 2018 Author Share Posted May 16, 2018 The biggest pain with the base far way, is moving things to it. But having the forges etc, about 3 chunks away, (and under a building) means I don't see the screamers. Yes, it's a PITA, but less so than actually having to deal with them. That is my point. I don't like the way the system works. Instead of encouraging the players to plan their defenses, it encourages them to exploit the heat system by doing a chore. And if the player follows the option B, screamers will keep coming constantly and the whole gameplay is being reduced to "kill the screamer before it screams", one after the other. In high difficulty settings especially, it is certainly not worth following option B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 The screamers will spawn zeds with or without you being seen. It's an illusion and is instead based on time and waves but zeds will spawn and come no matter if you kill a screamer right away without being seen. The spawning of the screamers themselves are broken as well.. well maybe not totally broken but you'll never get just 1 screamer either and it's hard coded to do so, no matter what settings you give them or how you tweak them. Another interesting thing is, the 'heat' increase happens in a grid like area. So if you build a base that happens to be on the grid lines overlapping both sides, one side of your base could build up heat faster than another side. This can also be a pita or excitement depending on the player, because if you build up the heat on the one side of the grid and then build up heat at the other side of the grid at the same time.. you'll get twice the amount. This isn't limited to just two sides either but can easily have a base with 4 different heat building zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toores Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 That is my point. I don't like the way the system works. Instead of encouraging the players to plan their defenses, it encourages them to exploit the heat system by doing a chore. And if the player follows the option B, screamers will keep coming constantly and the whole gameplay is being reduced to "kill the screamer before it screams", one after the other. In high difficulty settings especially, it is certainly not worth following option B. My experience has been that building a base is a very tedious thing. It seems there's little downtime between screamers and wandering hordes. We definitely could use a wandering horde random offset. I don't mind that all screamers look the same but I would actually prefer if screamers would spawn randomly among regular zombies and sleepers instead. This would add variety to the game. Imagine stumbling upon a screamer at night or running carelessly into a room only to hear a scream before you can react... At the moment it's just the same loop on repeat - boring and tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted May 16, 2018 Author Share Posted May 16, 2018 The screamers will spawn zeds with or without you being seen. It's an illusion and is instead based on time and waves but zeds will spawn and come no matter if you kill a screamer right away without being seen. The spawning of the screamers themselves are broken as well.. well maybe not totally broken but you'll never get just 1 screamer either and it's hard coded to do so, no matter what settings you give them or how you tweak them. That's my experience as well. They have GPS, spawn continuously one after another if heat is high (forges etc in the same chunk) and summon zombies even if you are holed in your house. I don't mind the difficulty at all - it's just that it's not "realistic" and compells you to divide your base running back and forth. Another interesting thing is, the 'heat' increase happens in a grid like area. So if you build a base that happens to be on the grid lines overlapping both sides, one side of your base could build up heat faster than another side. This can also be a pita or excitement depending on the player, because if you build up the heat on the one side of the grid and then build up heat at the other side of the grid at the same time.. you'll get twice the amount. This isn't limited to just two sides either but can easily have a base with 4 different heat building zones. Interesting, wasn't aware of that. This is kind of an issue, since the difficulty is essentially random. I don't mind that all screamers look the same but I would actually prefer if screamers would spawn randomly among regular zombies and sleepers instead. This would add variety to the game. Imagine stumbling upon a screamer at night or running carelessly into a room only to hear a scream before you can react... At the moment it's just the same loop on repeat - boring and tedious. Exactly, it's a loop. A loop that intensifies if you are in the same chunk with your forge and other workstations. Wandering hordes/screamers must become more "natural"/random and preferably be fought with planning good defenses instead of dividing your base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamida Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 The screamers will spawn zeds with or without you being seen. It's an illusion and is instead based on time and waves but zeds will spawn and come no matter if you kill a screamer right away without being seen. The spawning of the screamers themselves are broken as well.. well maybe not totally broken but you'll never get just 1 screamer either and it's hard coded to do so, no matter what settings you give them or how you tweak them. Another interesting thing is, the 'heat' increase happens in a grid like area. So if you build a base that happens to be on the grid lines overlapping both sides, one side of your base could build up heat faster than another side. This can also be a pita or excitement depending on the player, because if you build up the heat on the one side of the grid and then build up heat at the other side of the grid at the same time.. you'll get twice the amount. This isn't limited to just two sides either but can easily have a base with 4 different heat building zones. lol you know saying that will spark a few players to build their bases on the intersection of 4 regions to see if they can get 4 zombies hordes to hit them on 4 corners at same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 lol you know saying that will spark a few players to build their bases on the intersection of 4 regions to see if they can get 4 zombies hordes to hit them on 4 corners at same time. hehe it's doable and if you do it right or wrong depending on how play, you can have it almost endless.. till you run out of ammo xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Hah, OP literally gave away the game... Its spot on, but takes you some time to learn. Unless ofcause you scour the forums... Maybe add a spoiler tag to the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmic Kerman Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 I’ve never really had a problem avoiding screamers. I’ve done underground bases with entrances 20 blocks away. I’ve done elevated bases with spikes around the perimeter. I’ve even used prefabs and either ignored them or placed a turret to dispatch them. The trick is to design your base with screamers in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted May 16, 2018 Author Share Posted May 16, 2018 Hah, OP literally gave away the game... Its spot on, but takes you some time to learn. Unless ofcause you scour the forums... Maybe add a spoiler tag to the thread I always forget to hide spoilers like that time I sent that GOT dragon gif to a friend and another one who was still in season 3 saw it. I blame the guy who was still on season 3! The trick is to design your base with screamers in mind. Or just dig downwards tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian9824 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 The screamers will spawn zeds with or without you being seen. It's an illusion and is instead based on time and waves but zeds will spawn and come no matter if you kill a screamer right away without being seen. The spawning of the screamers themselves are broken as well.. well maybe not totally broken but you'll never get just 1 screamer either and it's hard coded to do so, no matter what settings you give them or how you tweak them. Another interesting thing is, the 'heat' increase happens in a grid like area. So if you build a base that happens to be on the grid lines overlapping both sides, one side of your base could build up heat faster than another side. This can also be a pita or excitement depending on the player, because if you build up the heat on the one side of the grid and then build up heat at the other side of the grid at the same time.. you'll get twice the amount. This isn't limited to just two sides either but can easily have a base with 4 different heat building zones. I can say in 1000+ hours ive never had that happen once. I hear a screamer, go up to roof of my base and snipe it and its dead. Have never gotten a horde once. Or they die on my spikes outside. Again, never summons a horde. I have heard that the actual scream and horde summoning might not always be synched but i've never seen or had a screamer summon a horde without having spotted me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 I can say in 1000+ hours ive never had that happen once. I hear a screamer, go up to roof of my base and snipe it and its dead. Have never gotten a horde once. Or they die on my spikes outside. Again, never summons a horde. I have heard that the actual scream and horde summoning might not always be synched but i've never seen or had a screamer summon a horde without having spotted me. In 16.4 that's how its worked out for me time and time again, test after test. I did all that testing to find the limits of what can and cannot be done for a mod. So I can only go by what I have done and tested. I know in earlier version it reacted with the whole sight deal, but in the current 16.4b8 release that's not what I've seen. All I can say is <shrug> glad is working for you?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian9824 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 In 16.4 that's how its worked out for me time and time again, test after test. I did all that testing to find the limits of what can and cannot be done for a mod. So I can only go by what I have done and tested. I know in earlier version it reacted with the whole sight deal, but in the current 16.4b8 release that's not what I've seen. All I can say is <shrug> glad is working for you?! Odd then, ive even played mods in 16.4 that had screamer blocks to summon more and i'd use them all the time. Without fail the screamers only summoned hordes if they saw me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Odd then, ive even played mods in 16.4 that had screamer blocks to summon more and i'd use them all the time. Without fail the screamers only summoned hordes if they saw me. Don't know. It's like the weather mechanic. For some its funky, for some it's mostly ok Or the biome spawn issues that some get and others don't. I just chalk it up to EA and it'll all work out in the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minandreas Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I think the heatmap is a sub-par system. But I feel like it was a stopgap solution. One designed to help make sure that there are threats moving toward your base in a game where the AI is epic level trash tier. It being hooked to forges was a way to try and give it some kind of counterplay that the player had control of. Now that the AI is getting some proper love and attention, hopefully they can work towards a more elegant system. Optimally, I'd like to see something like in Project Zomboid. Where meta events happening around the map can bring zombies near your base (Kinda like wandering hordes, but more announced and less pure wtf random), and from there the zombies AI takes over. If you are making a bunch of noise in your base, or it has lights on it, or they smell you, etc. That is what gets them riled up and makes them try and find you. So there's some gameplay to it. One of those meta events occurs and you can scramble to shut down the forges, turn out the lights, and keep quiet until the threat passes, or instead hit up the battle stations and prepare to meet the threat head on. As for screamers, they are just buggy and awkward and hopefully the code they operate on can be improved. It would be far cooler if they had a distinct animation leading up to their scream, and that if you hit them, it stops them and they have to start the animation over again. Would make them feel more unique and less janky. Right now the only way to stop them seems to be to head shot them before they even sense you. It's kinda lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guerthal Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 The screamers will spawn zeds with or without you being seen. It's an illusion and is instead based on time and waves but zeds will spawn and come no matter if you kill a screamer right away without being seen. The spawning of the screamers themselves are broken as well.. well maybe not totally broken but you'll never get just 1 screamer either and it's hard coded to do so, no matter what settings you give them or how you tweak them. I have killed hundreds of screamers before they scream and avoided them spawning a horde. If you nail the head shot from far enough, all is fine. I've also seen one single screamer spawn after running 4 forges for a while. Not 2 or a bunch, one at a time. About 95% of the time. - - - Updated - - - There are mainly too options when it comes to the heatmap and building/defending a base above ground. You definitely forgot option #3: Make defenses that kill the screamers without you having to get out and shoot them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted May 17, 2018 Author Share Posted May 17, 2018 You definitely forgot option #3: Make defenses that kill the screamers without you having to get out and shoot them. Jesus christ, why didn't anyone correct that grammar mistake. "Too options" jeez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldranon Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I didn't see anyone say get the heat map blazing hot and kill the screamer hordes, but not the screamers, for the loot but mostly the bones. They stop screaming after awhile, so I kill them for "Fresh" screamers. Shotgun turrets are really powerful (I guess to make up for them being so lame for the player to shoot) and will be important in A17 for any above ground players (assuming they're not nerfed). I've been testing this out around day 100, no deaths, to see if you can get a large amount of resources for Shotgun shells. A nice large, flat area is important and having 200+ stamina. Spike club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted May 18, 2018 Author Share Posted May 18, 2018 I didn't see anyone say get the heat map blazing hot and kill the screamer hordes, but not the screamers, for the loot but mostly the bones. They stop screaming after awhile, so I kill them for "Fresh" screamers. Farming zombies like that in a post-zombie apocalypse is kind of anti-climatic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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