Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Martial-Law]

If the behometh is gone, is there any intention to have a better base destroying Z? IMO Late days hordes should have more peril. I would love a zombie that has the power to quickly separate brick from mortar and destroy bases fast if not dealt with.

[graphite]

I'm also glad Behemoth is gone. Zip lines looked cool but I wonder how much we would use them ?

If I want to go any distance or escape I would rather take my Minibike for the storage.

 

Yes lets hope they dont take away the ability to be able just jump on the minibike to get away.

 

They could create a function to debuff the speed if a cold start is initated.

 

So if you havent ridden your minibike in 10 mins speed is so drasticly reduced that zeds can attack you and you cannot speed away.

 

It just be like the "good old days" when vehicles had carbs with manual chokes and mechanical ignition systems.

[Royal Deluxe]

Yes lets hope they dont take away the ability to be able just jump on the minibike to get away.

 

Dear TFP if you read this, DONT add things like "No minibike start if you are Hunted"

This would be annoying as hell and would help the difficulty nearly nothing.

 

You can add a % chance that the bike if only 50% health will not start the engine for a few secs.

 

It just be like the "good old days" when vehicles had carbs with manual chokes and mechanical ignition systems.

If your Mini bike alike bike had this problems please dont think that this was ever be normal. My small moped never had this issues with a decent maintenance.

[Gamida]

Oh yeah, like those are common and craftable by common survivors.

 

Awww man, are you saying NONE of the A-Team survived the Zombie Apocalypse?

 

 

Update: Nvm, I saw you said common survivors....the A-Team would be far from common so I am guessing they are our there somewhere saving the asses of the less survivable...

 

 

 

 

 

and now I have the theme song stuck in my head...

[graphite]

Dear TFP if you read this, DONT add things like "No minibike start if you are Hunted"

This would be annoying as hell and would help the difficulty nearly nothing.

 

You can add a % chance that the bike if only 50% health will not start the engine for a few secs.

 

 

If your Mini bike alike bike had this problems please dont think that this was ever be normal. My small moped never had this issues with a decent maintenance.

 

Yes sorry it was a joke about minbike and not to be taken seriously.

 

But you having fear of this being implemented could tempt TFP into doing something similar maybe.

 

I not sure about older vehicles not being effected by coldstarting as much as newer vehicles though.

 

You are possibly right about moped though.

 

Oil viscosity wont really have a major effect on a 2 stroke though and the crankcase and barrel etc wont take nearly as long to heat up as an engine block of a car so this wont effect compression much.

 

Not sure how cold start enrichment is implemented?

[Royal Deluxe]

The problem i see is simply that such a "Cold Start impossibility" can lead fast to a "RNG decides to "kill Player"" situation

If i die because i parked my Bike so that i cant drive away, fine.

If i die because my bike is nearly broken and dont start, ok.

 

But if RNG simply decide (because it is like it is) that i cant use my bike i rely on, its not ok.

 

Hey and no need to excuse.

The idea itself is finally a (context dependend sensefull) suggestion.

Dont take it as a offense if people react critical.

(Nearly all people here are finally good humans i would allways drink a beer with.(Specially after hard discussions))

[graphite]

The problem i see is simply that such a "Cold Start impossibility" can lead fast to a "RNG decides to "kill Player"" situation

If i die because i parked my Bike so that i cant drive away, fine.

If i die because my bike is nearly broken and dont start, ok.

 

But if RNG simply decide (because it is like it is) that i cant use my bike i rely on, its not ok.

 

Hey and no need to excuse.

The idea itself is finally a (context dependend sensefull) suggestion.

Dont take it as a offense if people react critical.

(Nearly all people here are finally good humans i would allways drink a beer with.(Specially after hard discussions))

 

I understand your points about PRNG and to have it decide if your bike is capable of top speed or moving at all could be annoying.

 

I did suggest a timer to start after you had got off your minibike that when reached zero set the minibike to a coldstart situation where you could move but not outrun zeds or dogs for a small amount of time 10-15 secs for instance so it would have not been PRNG.

 

This idea though seems wasteful on resources but in turn makes the player stay and fight instead of getting away on minibike.

 

If you simply got off to loot a car you would not be effected but if you was running around outside your base on horde night and using it to escape when required it would make this more difficult.

 

I dont mind about people being critical in discussion as i find it gets to the major points quicker and cuts out alot of fluff so no worries.

[spacepiggio]

I would have gone with a Cross Bow Attachment to shoot a Zip Line for an escape route.

Just add it to the reload, R/Click load arrow or Z/L, you would have to carry rope or something, no rope no Zip.

 

Zip Line could be launched with a SG/S or the B/B would have been a good Z/L Shooter.

[graphite]

The acceleration curve of the mini bike is very on/off and maybe that will be refined one day.

I wonder if the cycle will be the same with getting to top speed almost instantly?

 

I am also wondering about new physics and if this will make changes to friction/drag on gradients.

Also when running over objects like cinderblocks, corpses and tyres how this is handled.

[graphite]

Funny PRNG was mentioned as i have spent hours searching and trying to understand (without success) methods and functions of sampling and weighting and how this is transfered into code.

 

Would be good to discuss PRNG in general as most people have come to really hate it but i cant see how you can do without it.

 

Choices of what happens next would need to be in some sort of state machine that has rules of logic but this sounds complex and expensive resource wise.

 

I am more than likely wrong on my assumptions as i understand very little about the subject but put my thoughts out so others can respond with there own.

[Royal Deluxe]

From the point of view of Balance RNG is nice because rewards and Punishes can feel random.

The only problem is that RNG can have a huge influence.

1: If RNG touches important core items like "Player die by RNG" it feels really really anoying (mostly for Death is death player)

For this reason some things never should be RNG based

like:

* Do your Vehicle work

* Do your weapon work

* Will a First aid kit heal you.

 

2: There are really player that life on the "Dark side" of the "normal curve"

Means a few player (under 5%) have so much bad luck they never loot nice items.

 

And in this cases a game need a reliable guaranteed Basevalue that is immune to RNG

[dhlmaster]

From the point of view of Balance RNG is nice because rewards and Punishes can feel random.

The only problem is that RNG can have a huge influence.

1: If RNG touches important core items like "Player die by RNG" it feels really really anoying (mostly for Death is death player)

For this reason some things never should be RNG based

like:

* Do your Vehicle work

* Do your weapon work

* Will a First aid kit heal you.

 

2: There are really player that life on the "Dark side" of the "normal curve"

Means a few player (under 5%) have so much bad luck they never loot nice items.

 

And in this cases a game need a reliable guaranteed Basevalue that is immune to RNG

 

This is so true. I have seen complaints on here from someone saying they walked for hours (several game days) and never found a town. Or some say they run for hours and don't find water. Meanwhile, I am playing in a world full of water and towns. I imagine the same logic applies to loot tables. There must be that guy out there that never finds enough feathers while someone else has 100+ on day 1. If you apply the same logic to life or death situations and just get killed from the game "rolling the dice" there will inevitably be the person who dies every 20 minutes, rage quits and tells all their friends how much the game sucks.

[graphite]

Making certain systems have 99.9% reliabilty that exact input will give exact output is obviously required for some systems and pushing everything to PRNG would be chaos and cause player pandemonium.

 

So at first i agree that everything that is directly attached to player death (Core system) should be reliably predictable.

 

But animal attack is not totally predictable though and early game accidental contact with a furry friend has a high probability of leading to player death.

 

I am not sure mines come into this category as they can be avoided.

 

So there is a small grey area so to speak.

 

I totally agree on using PRNG regarding things like loot where deciding if implementing the system is required doesnt need much consideration but getting the weights in a state of balance is complex.

[Royal Deluxe]

Would be good to discuss PRNG in general as most people have come to really hate it but i cant see how you can do without it.

 

here a example

	<prefab_rule name="wildernessGroup">	
[color="#FFFF00"]			<prefab rule="traderGroup" min_count="1" max_count="1"/>[/color]
		<prefab name="cabin_01" />
		<prefab name="cabin_02_sm" />
		<prefab name="cabin_03_lg" />
		<prefab name="cabin_04_md" />
		<prefab name="cabin_05_lg" />
		<prefab name="cabin_06_lg" />
		<prefab name="cabin_snow_hidden_01"/>
		<prefab name="ranger_station1" />
		<prefab name="snowy_ski_lodge" />
		<prefab name="campsite_01" />
		<prefab name="campsite_02" />
		<prefab name="campsite_03" />
		<prefab name="campsite_04" />
		<prefab name="campsite_06" />
		<prefab name="campsite_06a" />
		<prefab name="campsite_07" />
		<prefab name="campsite_07a" />
		<prefab name="indian_burial_grounds_01" prob="0.05"/>
		<prefab name="oldwest_graveyard"/>
		<prefab name="cave_01" />
		<prefab name="cave_02" />
		<prefab name="cave_03" />
		<prefab name="cave_04" />
	</prefab_rule>




	<prefab_rule name="traderGroup">
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_01" />
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_02" />
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_03" />
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_04" />
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_05" />
	</prefab_rule>

 

Still Rng which trader you get, but one is warranted

This should be part of some items in the loot xml too

 

But finally, because we have traders its not longer really a issue in my experience. (Traders need maybe a bit more reliability)

[JaxTeller718]

This is so true. I have seen complaints on here from someone saying they walked for hours (several game days) and never found a town. Or some say they run for hours and don't find water. Meanwhile, I am playing in a world full of water and towns. I imagine the same logic applies to loot tables. There must be that guy out there that never finds enough feathers while someone else has 100+ on day 1. If you apply the same logic to life or death situations and just get killed from the game "rolling the dice" there will inevitably be the person who dies every 20 minutes, rage quits and tells all their friends how much the game sucks.

 

I can see the dilemma here. But you can't just make it so that no one dies, or everyone gets the good loot. THAT will also kill the game. I have seen games like Just Survive and other survival type games that catered too much towards a more friendly survival experience and that has also killed word of mouth surrounding them

 

Accusations of the game not being survival or being too casual friendly will also stain a game's reputation Hell some even say this one has gone more towards the casual side since things like the crafting grid were removed. What's the solution? I'm not sure. Being the kind of gamer who isn't afraid to die or start over I don't have an answer because my answer would be to suck it up. But i know that in today's gaming climate that's just not a realistic expectation.

 

The survival genre itself is basically BUILT on RNG otherwise it's not really survival if you can guarantee someone can find what they need when they need it all the time.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

here a example

	<prefab_rule name="wildernessGroup">	
[color="#FFFF00"]			<prefab rule="traderGroup" min_count="1" max_count="1"/>[/color]
		<prefab name="cabin_01" />
		<prefab name="cabin_02_sm" />
		<prefab name="cabin_03_lg" />
		<prefab name="cabin_04_md" />
		<prefab name="cabin_05_lg" />
		<prefab name="cabin_06_lg" />
		<prefab name="cabin_snow_hidden_01"/>
		<prefab name="ranger_station1" />
		<prefab name="snowy_ski_lodge" />
		<prefab name="campsite_01" />
		<prefab name="campsite_02" />
		<prefab name="campsite_03" />
		<prefab name="campsite_04" />
		<prefab name="campsite_06" />
		<prefab name="campsite_06a" />
		<prefab name="campsite_07" />
		<prefab name="campsite_07a" />
		<prefab name="indian_burial_grounds_01" prob="0.05"/>
		<prefab name="oldwest_graveyard"/>
		<prefab name="cave_01" />
		<prefab name="cave_02" />
		<prefab name="cave_03" />
		<prefab name="cave_04" />
	</prefab_rule>




	<prefab_rule name="traderGroup">
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_01" />
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_02" />
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_03" />
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_04" />
		<prefab name="settlement_trader_05" />
	</prefab_rule>

 

Still Rng which trader you get, but one is warranted

This should be part of some items in the loot xml too

 

But finally, because we have traders its not longer really a issue in my experience. (Traders need maybe a bit more reliability)

 

Traders are fine. Our last map had over 20 traders on it. It doesn't get much more reliable than that. If anything they need a nerf because with the min max at 1 you are guaranteed to get a trader in EVERY biome/chunk.

[Royal Deluxe]

The survival genre itself is basically BUILT on RNG otherwise it's not really survival if you can guarantee someone can find what they need when they need it all the time.

 

A real survival game would need to kill players even if they do all right.

And thats the simple problem. i cant imagine that more than a few would really play this way.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Traders are fine. Our last map had over 20 traders on it. It doesn't get much more reliable than that. If anything they need a nerf because with the min max at 1 you are guaranteed to get a trader in EVERY biome/chunk.

btw

Not sure what area is "one area"

Chunk would be to small and it is not per biome

And region looks wrong too

144 Regions if i am right on a RWG map, and it has around 50 Traders

[JaxTeller718]

A real survival game would need to kill players even if they do all right.

And thats the simple problem. i cant imagine that more than a few would really play this way.

 

Not necessarily. A real survival game in my opinion would look a LOT more like what 7 Days plays like with loot respawn off. I mean, who is filling these empty cabinets with items while we are gone? When bandits get put in then we could say the bandits did it but even then it would have to be a bandit camp we go to raid for supplies.

 

Eventually you have to move on (in a real simulation) and find new towns and cities. Eventually you kill all the animals and there are no more in your area. And also eventually you clear the zombies out. So maybe the answer lies in bigger worlds or being able to load into other maps like Ark does with 2 maps you can switch back and forth from on servers.

 

But overall THAT kind of realism would make the game more difficult and we are back to where we were with rage quitting.

[JaxTeller718]

 

 

btw

Not sure what area is "one area"

Chunk would be to small and it is not per biome

And region looks wrong too

144 Regions if i am right on a RWG map, and it has around 50 Traders

 

I'm not to up on editing the rwgmixer so I'm not sure, i DO know we had a LOT, so many that no one had to travel very far to get to them. Even 50 on one map is quite a lot i feel, but we all play and feel differently on things. Id never have more than 5 or 6 on my map.

 

So if it goes by region that means you never had to travel more than 3 regions away to find a trader which is probably a 10 minute run, even shorter on a bike.

[graphite]

Sorry i not sure if i understand but sometimes i am not the sharpest tool in the box.

 

All i can see is a rule that first spins a PRNG of 1-6 to choose which trader to add to the list.

 

What is interesting is it adds to a list of min count items so they are guaranteed to be generated.

 

Giving <prefab name="indian_burial_grounds_01" prob="0.05"/> a probabilty is also interesting.

 

If it is generating a list and randomising the list and then generating a pseudo random number to pick an item on the list then i am guessing that when the list is created multiple entries of list items are made according to the probabilty.

 

 

Not sure what this is min max of in units i shall read the comments again more carefully.

 

<wilderness_rule name="wildernessDefault" spawn_min_max="15,20"

[Tin]

A real survival game would need to kill players even if they do all right.

And thats the simple problem. i cant imagine that more than a few would really play this way.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

btw

Not sure what area is "one area"

Chunk would be to small and it is not per biome

And region looks wrong too

144 Regions if i am right on a RWG map, and it has around 50 Traders

 

Per cell. and you more than likely have twice that amount or more. haven't had a map in many builds with less than a 100 in "vanilla". Load StompyNZ app and you will know exactly how many you have in each map/seed.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Sorry i not sure if i understand but sometimes i am not the sharpest tool in the box.

 

All i can see is a rule that first spins a PRNG of 1-6 to choose which trader to add to the list.

 

What is interesting is it adds to a list of min count items so they are guaranteed to be generated.

 

Giving <prefab name="indian_burial_grounds_01" prob="0.05"/> a probabilty is also interesting.

 

If it is generating a list and randomising the list and then generating a pseudo random number to pick an item on the list then i am guessing that when the list is created multiple entries of list items are made according to the probabilty.

 

 

Not sure what this is min max of in units i shall read the comments again more carefully.

 

<wilderness_rule name="wildernessDefault" spawn_min_max="15,20"

 

Its how many pois per cell outside of the hub.

[xXC.H.U.DXx]

Happy birthday Madmole...they closed the forum before i could say anything

[JaxTeller718]

Sorry i not sure if i understand but sometimes i am not the sharpest tool in the box.

 

All i can see is a rule that first spins a PRNG of 1-6 to choose which trader to add to the list.

 

What is interesting is it adds to a list of min count items so they are guaranteed to be generated.

 

Giving <prefab name="indian_burial_grounds_01" prob="0.05"/> a probabilty is also interesting.

 

If it is generating a list and randomising the list and then generating a pseudo random number to pick an item on the list then i am guessing that when the list is created multiple entries of list items are made according to the probabilty.

 

 

Not sure what this is min max of in units i shall read the comments again more carefully.

 

<wilderness_rule name="wildernessDefault" spawn_min_max="15,20"

 

What it means is that when the mixer calls for a prefab in that list that there will always be 1 spawned. you can put a min max on all prefabs to control how many you will see. The ones without the min max are likely to be called several times like houses you see in towns that repeat.

 

The prob is a percentage of how likely it will appear. So a 0.05 is small percentage but a 0.9 is almost a guarantee. Loot also has prob assigned to them depending on the type of loot.

[Tin]

What it means is that when the mixer calls for a prefab in that list that there will always be 1 spawned. you can put a min max on all prefabs to control how many you will see. The ones without the min max are likely to be called several times like houses you see in towns that repeat.

 

The prob is a percentage of how likely it will appear. So a 0.05 is small percentage but a 0.9 is almost a guarantee. Loot also has prob assigned to them depending on the type of loot.

 

Your example only applies if you add min_count="" max_Count="" in the poi list but not for spawn_min_max="" in the "wildernessDefault".

 

edit: Not a gotcha post by any means just correcting..

[Aldranon]

If the behometh is gone, is there any intention to have a better base destroying Z? IMO Late days hordes should have more peril. I would love a zombie that has the power to quickly separate brick from mortar and destroy bases fast if not dealt with.

 

I don't know about you, but if you let enough of those radiated cops explode next to your base, your base will be wreaked. Don't die and all too soon, you will see them in ever growing numbers. They're the boogey man.

[Royal Deluxe]

If they want to add such a "Devastating" zombie it should have really less HP.

Until now high damage is always paired with high HP. Thats bad in a perpective of Strategie and Tactic.

 

Tanks = Much hp but nearly no Damage

Destroyers = Less Hp but good damage

Special movement Zombies = as a Priority target dependent on the situation (normal HP)

this woud lead to a gameplay players really need to make decisions.