DUST2DEATH Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I'm not sure how that would work. Someone would have to design, build, program, service, etc. all the automated machinery. From a collectivist point of view the people with the expertise to do those things would be getting shafted, as they'd be the only one's that'd have to work. Everyone would be relying on them too. IMO lacking a conventional economy would only be fair and sustainable if everyone had to contribute to a community, or were simply self-sustaining. Otherwise someone's getting taken advantage of, and I think that's counter to the point if I'm reading you correctly. I personally agree with currency, it better facilitates fair trade. Of course, I think we should be using hard currency, or perhaps commodity currency such as gold and silver. I have no faith in arbitrary, government backed fiat currencies. It's not always a perfect system either, though. Of course, we're delving into the hypothetical here. What do you mean by that? That is where Universal Basic Income comes in. http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/finland-begins-universal-basic-income-trial-as-the-world-watches/news-story/7ae91901c856ca697ed6b30e18cbba00 CHUD is going to be against this but its not something you can stop. With automation coming,( FYI, ford wants driverless delivery vans on the road in the US by 2021.), trucks, taxi's, uber etc will all be out of a job also. When the wealth is controlled by a select few and everyone else has no jobs to go to then we have a problem. The current and only solution that is viable is UBI. Europe Japan British Isles US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Won't work on large countries with large populations. These things simply can't sustain themselves, and the second you remove yourself from a competition based economy, is the second the person who IS competing eats you up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUST2DEATH Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I can safely say 100% the free market does not work, especially once all your regulations are removed. the US will see this soon enough. We are begging for our infrastructure and assets to be publicly owned again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 No single system is going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUST2DEATH Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 +1 4 Chars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXC.H.U.DXx Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Well west topsham is in vt, near the my border. I'm undecided as to which house to keep. The NH house is an old ass house but I like it, it has character, but the VT house is more modern and larger, with a better yard. TBH...both places are nice to live in....as long as it's in the woods or small town..try to avoid the cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Out of the two I prefer the Bath house. Near Woodsville. I like Woodsville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXC.H.U.DXx Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 That is where Universal Basic Income comes in. http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/finland-begins-universal-basic-income-trial-as-the-world-watches/news-story/7ae91901c856ca697ed6b30e18cbba00 CHUD is going to be against this but its not something you can stop. With automation coming,( FYI, ford wants driverless delivery vans on the road in the US by 2021.), trucks, taxi's, uber etc will all be out of a job also. When the wealth is controlled by a select few and everyone else has no jobs to go to then we have a problem. The current and only solution that is viable is UBI. Europe Japan British Isles US yeah just what the world needs...more lazy people.....Never in america...EVER!!! alot of countries already do that anyways....called Welfare. 90% of the inner city dirtbags are on it anyways. thats why america is turning to ♥♥♥♥...look at paris ....UK Wanna be lazy..dont expect ♥♥♥♥ from me. - - - Updated - - - Out of the two I prefer the Bath house. Near Woodsville. I like Woodsville. oo woodsville is nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUST2DEATH Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 UBI is not the same as welfare. How do you propose one deal with the mass unemployment that is going to hit most countries, millions unemployed due to automation and self driving/autonomous vehicles and AI (bankers, market analysts, programmers, etc) When there is no job to go to, what does CHUD propose we do for these people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamida Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Europe Japan British Isles US I never knew Japan and the British Isles looked so much alike... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 All of those pics are Aus with other countries (the dark areas) overlayed on top. - - - Updated - - - UBI is not the same as welfare. How do you propose one deal with the mass unemployment that is going to hit most countries, millions unemployed due to automation and self driving/autonomous vehicles and AI (bankers, market analysts, programmers, etc) When there is no job to go to, what does CHUD propose we do for these people? Do what we always do. Create new job categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUST2DEATH Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Do what we always do. Create new job categories. Might be enough, might not. Even cleaning of solar farms can be automated. The legal weed industry is expected to make 250K job by 2020. You are expected to lose 814K by 2024 in manufacturing alone. China put 1.2 million coal and steel workers out of a job. Some were retrained, others early retirement, some encourage to become self employed. Im not saying there isnt another solution, but for the time being there isnt. And this is going to happen faster than most will expect. As I mentioned 43K full time jobs left my state last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipothegip Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 That is where Universal Basic Income comes in. http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/finland-begins-universal-basic-income-trial-as-the-world-watches/news-story/7ae91901c856ca697ed6b30e18cbba00 CHUD is going to be against this but its not something you can stop. With automation coming,( FYI, ford wants driverless delivery vans on the road in the US by 2021.), trucks, taxi's, uber etc will all be out of a job also. When the wealth is controlled by a select few and everyone else has no jobs to go to then we have a problem. The current and only solution that is viable is UBI. The thing is, where does that money come from and where does it go? I don't see this being sustainable, but I guess time will tell. Another worry I do have, which I guess is just how I view things, is the potential dependence on government it could create and complacency it could promote. The US is pretty far into the Tytler Cycle IMO, we don't need to nudge it any further. Do what we always do. Create new job categories. This, the economy should adapt. There have been the same concerns when computers became a part of the market. It ended up creating some transitional jobs for a bit, then new positions were later needed to upkeep the technology. The job market did change, some jobs went extinct, but new jobs were made as they were needed. There will be jobs that will become obsolete and may not exist in the future, but there will be new jobs as well. The actual problem at that point will likely be education and other avenues of pursuing a career, considering there are going to be a lot more technical jobs, and a lot less labor if your projection is accurate. This is already a problem we're having. People will need a way to obtain the knowledge and expertise to fill the more advanced jobs, and the lack of unskilled labor could make it harder to start out (you have to start somewhere). yeah just what the world needs...more lazy people.....Never in america...EVER!!! alot of countries already do that anyways....called Welfare. 90% of the inner city dirtbags are on it anyways. thats why america is turning to ♥♥♥♥...look at paris ....UK Wanna be lazy..dont expect ♥♥♥♥ from me. I blame the complacency and apathy people have in regards to our government, and by extension how large and out of control it has become. It's astonishing how many people don't bother to vote, none the less pay attention to what's going on in their government here in the US. Then they just eat up whatever lip service their representatives dole out, and listen to whatever the media says, preferably the station that agrees with the so called representatives they blindly follow. Nobody bothers to scrutinize and question the government, or at least not enough people do it. You're paranoid and crazy if you do that. I suppose laziness and reliance on the government is a part of that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamida Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 All of those pics are Aus with other countries (the dark areas) overlayed on top. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, it is clear to me now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUST2DEATH Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 The thing is, where does that money come from and where does it go? So heres the conundrum. The wealthy, the ones that own the corps are automating. This displaces workers. No money incoming to displaced people. If the people who buy your product have no money who are you making it for? The idea behind UBI is that as large corps automate, robots, and the business is taxxed properly. Robots are being suggested to be taxxed like workers would. The revenue then raised from both sides of the tax stream is distributed among the many. It is intended to only pay for bare necessities of living (rent/food/utilities) as a supplement to you doing more productive work. You can still work and earn income, and be taxxed appropriately on whatever scale exists in your country. More productive work is partially discussed in this nice piece: AI Software Learns to make AI Software We are at a stage of rapid tech evolution like never seen before. This is not about lazy, but about social divide and equality going forward in a automated world where 1% control more than the 99% together. There are a group of billionaires in china, I think it was about 10 or so.(id have to find the source) Their combined wealth is the same as Belgiums entire GDP. ($700bn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Money money money money... is that all there is to talk about? The happiest ppl in the world are also the poorest. Don't you all just want to be happy? Seriously though, if you haven't watched the documentaries I posted earlier, they're really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitnoid Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Money money money money... is that all there is to talk about? The happiest ppl in the world are also the poorest. Don't you all just want to be happy? I always thought the happiest people were the ignorant ones. I happen to be EXTREMELY happy, btw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Wealth redistribution is a big deal here... it's the #1 divider among our two parties (we technically have several parties, but that's a whole new rant). Luckily, enough Americans woke up and realized that there are other solutions; ones that don't involve killing initiative, ingenuity, and innovation, and although the details really aren't figured out yet, the vote was cast against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipothegip Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Money money money money... is that all there is to talk about? The happiest ppl in the world are also the poorest. Don't you all just want to be happy? Seriously though, if you haven't watched the documentaries I posted earlier, they're really good. You have a point here. Poor, happy, and content is still happy and content My concern is being able to sustain myself and getting into a career that I enjoy, while being able to do the things I enjoy. Getting rich isn't important. The real question is how to best achieve this. I'll have to give those documentaries a look, they seem interesting. Wealth redistribution is a big deal here... it's the #1 divider among our two parties (we technically have several parties, but that's a whole new rant). Luckily, enough Americans woke up and realized that there are other solutions; ones that don't involve killing initiative, ingenuity, and innovation, and although the details really aren't figured out yet, the vote was cast against it. Don't get me started. Now if we could get either party to act with some sincerity or integrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 This has all been very mild and I applaud you on that but lets move away from politics before some of the headcases come in and it no longer appears mild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Dammit. We are found out. ...and we were on the downlow, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Dammit. We are found out. ...and we were on the downlow, too. lmao, I was thinking the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipothegip Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 This has all been very mild and I applaud you on that but lets move away from politics before some of the headcases come in and it no longer appears mild. What politics? We were just discussing... *looks to thread title*... oh yeah, reputation Er, um... the reputation of certain economic systems. That's all. He's not buying it, is he? - - - Updated - - - Dammit. We are found out. ...and we were on the downlow, too. lmao, I was thinking the same thing. Yep, it was nice while it lasted. Reminded me of the old days when political conversations were a norm in the off topic section, they usually didn't escalate to poo flinging either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUST2DEATH Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 This has all been very mild and I applaud you on that but lets move away from politics before some of the headcases come in and it no longer appears mild. Sorry Roland. I could talk about politics in the US/AUS along with economics all day long to anyone who would engage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXC.H.U.DXx Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 This has all been very mild and I applaud you on that but lets move away from politics before some of the headcases come in and it no longer appears mild. We wouldn't want to hurt any "snowflakes" feeling now >snip< Let's keep it mild, eh ;-) --- OzHawkeye that siad "get a job hippies" how is that not keeping it mild? i could of siad something like; "Stop living in your moms basement and wearing women's underwear and get a job and do something for your country other then being a leech in it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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