Fundamentals of Survivor

[Rotor]

3 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

 

You know, no one complained that we could loot gas without the benefit of a Jerry Can.

But, we let go of water jars - and now its grown into so many threads that just have gotten repetitive.

 

 

 

Funny but true, this is how slow I play,  I cant even comment on cans.  I have not had a vehicle as of yet, other than a bicycle.

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

You know, no one complained that we could loot gas without the benefit of a Jerry Can.

But, we let go of water jars - and now its grown into so many threads that just have gotten repetitive.

 

Why do you think I been discussing the correct definition of screw vs bolt in this thread?  😆

[theFlu]

42 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Can you explain why there seems to be no discussion among valheim players about this?

I can try: "In Valheim, players are able to get all the water they need from the nearby lake."

[meganoth]

Just now, theFlu said:

I can try: "In Valheim, players are able to get all the water they need from the nearby lake."

 

@meilodasreh could simply answer this question: "If TFP changed the game so you would get filled water jars when scooping up water from a lake but you still never found nor could create empty jars, would then ALL of your immersion issues with the water changes be solved?"

 

If he said yes, then you are right and meilodasreh's post is just (sort of) hitting on a bag of changes without being to careful what he hits. If no, this isn't the only thing meilodasreh thinks is wrong with water in 7d2d

 

[theFlu]

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

would then ALL of your immersion issues with the water changes be solved?

There's a difference between ALL and "significant enough to whine about". Plus meilo wasn't even talking about his own opinion, at least by his phrasing he was talking about "people who complain about the break in logic"; so I doubt he can speak for everyone anyway.

 

But sure, I'd be curious about his own opinion as well. Not that it changes mine; mine is established from the facts of the situation, not a popular poll. Sure he might be able to provide a fact I haven't considered, which could change my mind, but such a thing is in the realm of unknown unknowns for me.

[meganoth]

31 minutes ago, theFlu said:

There's a difference between ALL and "significant enough to whine about". Plus meilo wasn't even talking about his own opinion, at least by his phrasing he was talking about "people who complain about the break in logic"; so I doubt he can speak for everyone anyway.

 

But sure, I'd be curious about his own opinion as well. Not that it changes mine; mine is established from the facts of the situation, not a popular poll. Sure he might be able to provide a fact I haven't considered, which could change my mind, but such a thing is in the realm of unknown unknowns for me.

 

meilodasreh is often enough complaining or making digs at it so it is HIS issue as well. 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

meilodasreh is often enough complaining about it so it is HIS issue as well. 

I'll take your word for it, but if he complains about it often, shouldn't we already have his opinion somewhere...?

[meganoth]

13 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I'll take your word for it, but if he complains about it often, shouldn't we already have his opinion somewhere...?

 

Nothing beats asking directly. This is why I am asking Meilodesrah instead of asking you to psychoanalyze him and be his speaker.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Ramethzer0]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Why do you think I been discussing the correct definition of screw vs bolt in this thread?  😆

 

I mean this tongue-in-cheek, but you're doing God's work.  lol

[theFlu]

9 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Nothing beats asking directly.

All right. Two direct questions:

Do You think the game would be more realistic if the player would be able to take a "free" amount of water from a lake and process it to obtain "clean water"?

Would the game be better for it? With possible limitations to processing speed, like a slow "purification station"?

[Urban Blackbear]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

I can try: "In Valheim, players are able to get all the water they need from the nearby lake."

 

You don't need water in Valheim, only food. Technically you don't even need to eat but good luck with 15hp and 10 stamina.

[meganoth]

31 minutes ago, theFlu said:

All right. Two direct questions:

Do You think the game would be more realistic if the player would be able to take a "free" amount of water from a lake and process it to obtain "clean water"?

Would the game be better for it? With possible limitations to processing speed, like a slow "purification station"?

 

I assume you are asking me here. Then "yes, if unlimited", "not for me personally", "depending on the limitations it could probably be worse, equal or better"

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

12 minutes ago, Urban Blackbear said:

You don't need water in Valheim, only food.

Indeed. I wonder how that would relate to them not complaining about missing water jars / dinner plates?

 

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I assume you are asking me here.

You assume correctly. So, you see it as "more realistic" but "not better for you" AND "possibly better depending on the limits". I'll point out that there's a small discontinuity between the latter two, but let's skip that. The more interesting continuation is:

 

What kind of limits would you make/want so the "more realistic" version would be better "in total" than what we have currently?

[meganoth]

54 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Indeed. I wonder how that would relate to them not complaining about missing water jars / dinner plates?

 

This is why I was not asking about water jars in valheim but about plates and bowls. See, you are almost fanatically determined to not let anyone differentiate between "missing containers" and "missing ability to get water from a lake". Like here were you add missing water jars as if that was part of the original question I posed.

 

Sure, you probably don't mean it that way, but from my viewpoint this looks like a rethorical manipulation.

 

54 minutes ago, theFlu said:

You assume correctly. So, you see it as "more realistic" but "not better for you" AND "possibly better depending on the limits". I'll point out that there's a small discontinuity between the latter two, but let's skip that. The more interesting continuation is:

 

I assume the discontinuity you are refering to is that the second question can include the changes of the third question. I treated the second question as if without any further changes because that provides more information about my opinion. Otherwise they would simply be one combined question which I answered as well.

 

54 minutes ago, theFlu said:

What kind of limits would you make/want so the "more realistic" version would be better "in total" than what we have currently?

 

For example that purifying station would need to be expensive enough or somehow limited so the player can't just build 10 of them. So that station can't be just the fire place, it could be something similar to the dew collector and surely would replace it. Though if it were expensive a player would not necessarily get it in the first days and then he would be cut off from making ANY water himself (no problem for veterans, but definitely for most new player). Possible solutions would be that the player finds clean water again or that there exist two types of murky water. Whatever solution is taken could also decrease realism again.

 

Whether that then is as good or better than now would have to be playtested. Whether I would want such a version depends on whether it is **noticable** better to warant all the redesign work (which might be more useful elsewhere). Since I don't care much for the realism part it would have to change the game to be more fun. I don't see yet where that fun should come from. Maybe from less micro-management in late game(!??).

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

 

I hereby requote myself for everybody who asked about my opinion about the "jars theme", and/or started/continued to try and explain/argue against or in favor of what I did recently post:

23 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

But really there is no need to try and explain these people from end to end why their opinion that there should be empty containers in the game is (allegedly) bad/wrong/logic breaking/...

 

When somebody says he wants to fetch water from a lake and doesn't like that this is gone,

just tell him: YES! In that aspect, that decision totally sucks! Basic survival logic was taken away from a game that claims to (also) be a survival game.

But it was for the good of other aspects that profit from that desicion

[meilodasreh]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

If you really think this is true then you should also find dozens of threads in the Valheim forums where they complain about missing food containers like bowls or plates.  See https://valheim.fandom.com/wiki/Food, you can see that the icons do have containers like cups and bowls. My search for "valheim forum missing containers" got zero applicable results though. And you probably won't claim that valheim is not survival, right?

 

Can you explain why there seems to be no discussion among valheim players about this?

I have never played Valheim, so I don't have any feeling of how it does play, and what might feel weird, or what items seem to be abundant or scarce.

Also I don't read the forums of it, so I can't tell what is discussed there. And I also don't know what that game claims to be or not, or what aspects are dominant or faint.

 

And I definitely don't want to invest any time to gain all that knowledge/experience/info to prove that your point is even viable.

And really, to what end? It's a totally different game, so it might or might not be comparable at all, and who can claim to decide it is?

 

Anyway, if you claim that your "zero hit search" for "valheim forum missing containers" does mean that everybody is fine with how it works there,

then just repeat your search with "7D2D forum missing jars",...the number of applicable results is far above zero...which does tell you what?

 

[theFlu]

31 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Sure, you probably don't mean it that way, but from my viewpoint this looks like a rethorical manipulation.

I actually do mean it exactly that way; in response to bringing in another game and the lack of random forum complaints related to a feature that isn't in that game, I felt that brute forcing the jars back in the conversation was fitting to the method of the argument. Unrelated at best.

 

39 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I assume the discontinuity you are refering to is that the second question can include the changes of the third question.

Indeed, no worries

 

47 minutes ago, meganoth said:

For example that purifying station would <snips>

Cool, we seem to agree for the most part; if we grant the "water needs to be strictly limited for glue crafting", we would end up in a solution that probably satisfies both of us. If I had to design something "quick and easy to implement", it'd be "pull jars of murky from lake, remove current boiled water recipe, add "boiled murky water" -recipe with lessened penalties, add water purification station with a "clean water" output (either just a crafting recipe or some "automation" like the dew collector has); it'd need a water filter to craft and produce something like 3x faster than the dew collector, but would require constant refills of murky, maybe even some fuel".

 

But honestly, if I were running the ship, I'd bring back the ability to boil water in tin cans. Yes, it was complete filler, but it was thematically fun. I would leave water as "relatively easy and natural" and figure out a way to limit glue production in other ways, maybe even split that into two, "bone glue" and "cyanoacrylate". Then require the better one for the recipes you're actually looking to limit.

 

Even with just the bone glue, I'd bet 80% of us couldn't whip up a batch of passable glue even given the ingredients; adding artificial limitations there wouldn't really feel bad at all as we wouldn't instinctively feel it's just horribly wrong.

 

Then again, one could argue about if glue is the right spot to rate limit either, but now we're heading into weeds ...

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

I actually do mean it exactly that way; in response to bringing in another game and the lack of random forum complaints related to a feature that isn't in that game, I felt that brute forcing the jars back in the conversation was fitting to the method of the argument. Unrelated at best.

 

I was bringing up and comparing to another game!!! A horrible crime it seems. Though there is someone on this forum who overuses this a bit in my opinion I hadn't thought that this was impossible and at best without any relevance at all. Or a shady method that allows any measures of retaliation.

 

 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

I have never played Valheim, so I don't have any feeling of how it does play, and what might feel weird, or what items seem to be abundant or scarce.

Also I don't read the forums of it, so I can't tell what is discussed there. And I also don't know what that game claims to be or not, or what aspects are dominant or faint.

 

And I definitely don't want to invest any time to gain all that knowledge/experience/info to prove that your point is even viable.

And really, to what end? It's a totally different game, so it might or might not be comparable at all, and who can claim to decide it is?

 

Anyway, if you claim that your "zero hit search" for "valheim forum missing containers" does mean that everybody is fine with how it works there,

then just repeat your search with "7D2D forum missing jars",...the number of applicable results is far above zero...which does tell you what?

 

 

Yeah sure, if you don't know Valheim then my question is moot. Since Valheim was often a topic for comparison with 7days and many people on the forum seem to have played it as well I thought it almost common knowledge.

 

To answer your question: I don't doubt that removing the jars combined with the other changes to water are a controversial issue and are talked about a lot. But the water changes are quite a few changes lumped together and it seems clear that many have objections to different parts of the change. While I completely understand why people have problems with the "can't get water from the lake" change, the other change to remove jars is simply about perception. There are hundreds of games out there that leave that part of reality completely to imagination and not simulate it. And nobody complains, maybe because they never experienced that that part was in the game once and then suddenly removed.

 

PS: One question you might be able to answer even if you don't know anything about valheim: If TFP changed the game so you would get filled water jars when scooping up water from a lake but you still never found nor could create empty jars, would then ALL of your immersion issues with the water changes be solved?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

35 minutes ago, meganoth said:

any measures of retaliation.

Valheim's forums don't have complaints about missing dinner plates.

Valheim's forums don't have complaints about missing water jars.

Yes, that game never had either and never needed either and didn't break logic by removing either. My horrible "retaliation" is pointing out that the comparison to a different game, in a different situation, is pointless. Sure, it's a sleazy way to draw your attention to the problem, but at least you noticed ...

[meilodasreh]

9 minutes ago, meganoth said:

While I completely understand why people have problems with the "can't get water from the lake" change, the other change to remove jars is simply about perception. There are hundreds of games out there that leave that part of reality completely to imagination and not simulate it. And nobody complains, maybe because they never experienced that that part was in the game once and then suddenly removed.

Yes I get that.

But then again, there's no need to try and convince people that they're wrong when they say they don't like that change.

They had it, they liked it how it was, it was taken away from them, they don't like that change. That's it.

Maybe that's just what they wanted to express, nothing more. But take a look who is first to make a longgoing story of it.

 

Take this thread as a good example.

The OP titled it "fundamentals of survival" (well he wrote "survivor", but of course he meant survival)

He even emphazized his main point by using capital letters: "BUT removing bottles/cans etc means also removing the absolute BASIC FUNDAMENTAL ESSENCE of SURVIVAL."

So he explicitly was complaining about the fact he did like to follow intuitive survival logic (find empty container, get water), which is now gone.

 

You didn't even acknowledge that point by one single word, but immediately took the discussion away by giving examples that there are not any other containers in the game too, e.g. for getting/storing fuel.

Well ok, that's a thing, but that already has nothing to do with basic survival anymore. Getting fuel for your vehicle is mid/late game stuff, just as getting hundreds of forged iron, or thousands of rifle rounds, which btw. nobody complains that you can carry those around, despite it should not be realistically possible (weight/space).

People are aware that there have to be compromises for the sake of fun. 

 

But again, that's not the topic people are complaining about. It's just about that basic survival thing (meaning "getting water, making fire, finding shelter"), that you can't do in the most basic/logic/intuitive way anymore.

You cannot discuss that away, especially not by ignoring the central/original point of discussion, but instead take it to other logic contexts that are not really comparable (or even to other games).

 

That's what I meant with my post, by saying "just tell them "yes, you're right, regarding that context the decision sucks". Then you at least acknowledge that you get their point. Instead immediately bringing up "no containers at all" and "water scarcity"...I think In the end you are contributing to a good extent that this whole topic keeps being so "wildly" discussed over long periods of time, no pun intended.

 

 

 

[Vaeliorin]

Obviously, the correct thing to do is bring back jars and add containers for everything else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

🧌

 

Truth be told, that would be my preference, but I accept that I'm a weirdo.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Vaeliorin (see edit history)

[Rotor]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

PS: One question you might be able to answer even if you don't know anything about valheim: If TFP changed the game so you would get filled water jars when scooping up water from a lake but you still never found nor could create empty jars, would then ALL of your immersion issues with the water changes be solved?

 

May I answer on my behalf?

 

Thank you.

 

No all, but this one issue would be.

[4sheetzngeegles]

Disclaimer: potential Cthulhu R'lyehian language to follow. 🙃

 

When I first played, was, long before I joined the forum. I didn't know there was one. Everything was scarce,
everything was unfairly after you "always", It was dark as pitch, and the architecture was artistic and surreal
in shape.            Tim Burton "nightmare before Christmas" surreal.                Now that I've set the stage.

 

There is a potential option, A Drought Mechanic. It creates a sense of urgency across the spectrum of game

play. "A brushing of the wings" as comparison.
 
Explanation: It only takes one locust, to take flight under the right circumstances
and all are affected. A frenzy of thought and or actions.
   
OR  The Butterfly Effect, not the Ashton time warping movie, but the analogy.  
 
OR  (LOTR reference) One change that equally touches everyone. A gambit that can swing either way.

 

I personally feel, in the beginning the game "made" players hoard, because of the fear of not having enough of anything when

it was needed. There was a lack of resources because TFP and the game were at a fledgling state.  Now hoarding is more so

done because it's always there and accessible, meaning all resources and loot. Remove one thing and it's more readily noticeable,

kind of like a pothole in your lawn.

 

If plants can grow, which at its core is basically the Y Dim being increased, then would it be possible to reverse the math
and have water itself reduce in volume, either over time and or be affected by weather?  Enter my love for the landscape and
weather.

 

If loot container water is either reduced to nearly non-existent or removed completely would it not touch everyone, survivor,
craftier, farmer alike. And foster a natural but loathing dependency on those that have, meaning the traders. Price gouging,
and unfair quest requests to receive that which is needed, first for all else.

 

Introduce a water distillation model, that must be placed touching a water source, depletes the source over time, expensive to
build, slow to yield product, and runs on gas. Oh and it naturally creates a helluva heat map so it must be defended, Who has
the gas, Negan, OOPs i mean the traders. Back to the behest of the request system. They also have the parts to build your own.

 

The gas production model, It too must be placed at a water source to separate the impurities, but the caveat is it has to be a
natural water source because of the volume of water flowing through it. This brings about the necessity to mine resources, to
keep it going. It pollutes and contaminates the water source.

 

All water is contaminated to make it 100% safe, golden seal and antibiotics are added to the drinking water recipe. Or you get sick
and need the antibiotics to survive. This means looting, to find the resources. Not forced looting, but out of necessity, to survive.

 

Farmers don't get a pass, tainted water means tainted crops, lower yield percentages unless clean water is used and potential of debuffs.

 

Food yielded from animals has a higher percentage of tainted/spoiled meat, why because they drink the water also. In order to make it
100% safe then recipe incorporates honey, golden seal and water.

 

The Dew collectors catch raw rain water, after coming through the atmosphere its as pure as driven yellow snow. In order to produce
clean water, natural or man-made antibiotics must be added per daily yield.

 

Then when Bandits are introduced, base defense at its finest.              Just think, TWD all of the invasions.

 

So if you are still awake and made it to this point, my question is.

 

If drought mechanic is used, creating a necessitated dependency on many of the other mechanics mentioned would it yes or no create a more
natural flow, and sense of urgency during the entire game?

 

addendum: The removal or severe reduction of all mine-able resources from loot, adds to the need to use or depend on the other aspects of
the game. Concrete should need water, building it out of dry goods reminds me of this.  The Wise and Foolish Builders building their house
on sand. @Faatal went through the trouble of making a nice flowing water system, might as well put it to good use. Creating a codependency
or cohesion of mechanics included in Vanilla game. The filter could have charcoal introduced in the recipe, in  order to filter in small volume,

the charcoal would need, mined coal, burnt at a campfire, and introduces reverse osmosis,  instead of using antibiotics, if that sounds distasteful.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by 4sheetzngeegles
Meant Hoard not horde (see edit history)

[4sheetzngeegles]

For some reason I thought of this joke. The moral: The least little thing can make
the biggest noise.

 

Abridged
The parts of the body had a party, all were invited, brain, eyes, ears, nose, mouth,
stomach, hands and arms, legs and feet, heart and lungs, which always came as couples.
And last was the meek little arse that would always show up and stay to himself.

 

A big disagreement erupted regarding whom was more important. Brain said I let you know when to
eat drink and sleep, without me you'd wither and die. Mouth spoke up and said I take in nutrition
without me you'd all die. I see said eyes, and and without me you couldn't find the nutrition.
I smell something rotten said nose, and that keeps us from taking in bad or dangerous food. Raising
themselves, hands and arms said without me you couldn't pick up the food to eat it. Stomach rumbled
in a gruff voice well who helps distribute this nutrition, me. me. me. I hear that said ears, but
without me things could sneak up on us and game over. Feet and legs stood up to this challenge and
retorted, though you may hear, and though you may see, I carry us far from the dangers that be. Heart
and lungs said we pump the blood and air without which none of the rest is possible.

 

In between mouthfuls of food and drink the argument ensued.

 

Then a meek voice tooted, I think I am the most important. Everyone hushed, and then burst into laughter.

Did you hear that little arse. So brain feeling supreme said, You're so full of crap, I think you should shut up.

 

So he did......

 

Soon after, all the making merry, turned to queezy discomfort. Brain began to boil, Eyes began to cry,
Ears were ringing, Nose began to drip and run. Mouth got dry, and Stomach began to ache. Legs could
barely stand as toes curled. Arms and hands went limp. Heart was beating like a hummingbirds wings lungs
were gasping for air. Brain asked please open. But the little arse was hurt and obstinate, and said, nn nn.
Soon all were dibilitated unable to think or move. In one resounding, voice they pleaded please for the love
of all, "Open up". So the little arse thought about it for a bit then opened up. And all was good in the world
again.

 

The End

 

Just a little humor to brighten the day.