Fundamentals of Survivor

[Urban Blackbear]

2 hours ago, Rotor said:

 

Never played it, but I believe is a snow biome only, right?  how do you get to the point of having the "snow"?  It assumes since you are there you can gather it, right?

 

That there sounds pretty easy to me.

 

So, in essence those with the "issue" (me included) are not asking for the Jars to come back.  They are asking for an ability to go by water and collect it and boil it.  If the developers want to make "easy mode" like you describe, then make me be near the water.  I dont see where "braving" the elements and going to get water is "easier" than what you describe.

 

However, there are items in the game to allow you to collect it.  Just removing a mechanic because they needed to align the "item" and hoping it would make it harder as well is a failure. 

 

In closing IT IS NOT about the Jars.

 

I don't care about the removal of jars and I don't care to argue about it. Find someone else.

[Ramethzer0]

13 hours ago, RStarphoenix said:

I get the feeling the crying about jars/cans isn't because of mechanics, it's because people lost easy-mode survival with infinite water.
The more I hear justifications about why they should exist, the less reason they should exist. And we never needed them based on how the

game plays now. Water is still way too easy to collect & produce.

 

%1000 agree with this.

[Ramethzer0]

7 hours ago, Wave said:

Hey guys,
I understand to yours argumentation but apparently you did not get the point I am trying to explain. I love playing games on hard mode, especially survival games like this one. I set looting to 33% for example.

Is it clear? Is it enough of explanation that I am not crying but just suggesting more logic to survival mechanism?

 

You absolutely lost me again with these two critically opposed viewpoints.    Also, I didn't read anywhere about you crying about it specifically.  It's just an ongoing thing where you choose the unpopular opinion.

 

I'm going to give you a wordy monologue to help you settle this internally if you need it:  The Fun Pimps have a track record of never moving backwards on this game.   The most of us often hear the constant thrum of posts saying much of what you have said, "This is logical, why is it not in game!?"   And the gist of those discussions always seem to return to the same square in recognition that LOTS of things are logical, but the ones that have been chosen are in play for a reason, even if you don't understand why that reason doesn't resemble yours or mine.   So naturally, many of these sort of threads come off as some sort of ill-informed projection of player expectations and frustration.   I'll even go so far as to say some of their viewpoints actually make sense, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with them on paper.  That doesn't always mean its worthwhile to implement due to a host of factors that can be elusive to us as players.  Some things seem easy on the outside, but on the inside it could be a nightmare in waiting, or worse yet... a nightmare that unfolds down the line and one might not have the ability to put out that fire.  Compromises sometimes have to made.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Roland]

My only problem with water is that is far too abundant in loot. I suppose they lost their nerve and made it too plentiful in loot afraid that players wouldn’t be able to stay hydrated and quit playing. Before the release of 21.0 water was a lot more scarce and the dew collector was pretty important. Since the release of 21.0 the subsequent updates seem to have been adjusting the abundance of water in loot to a much higher level. 
 

In early testing you often had to drink directly from lakes rivers and gutters because there was very little water to be found. It is just everywhere now. 

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, theFlu said:

His point seems to be same most other complainer's; our character seems @%$#ed at the lake, unable to pick up water in to the unlimited water jars available everywhere. The phrasing is about jars since that's what the significant change is, but the main point is still the "unable to purify lake water" mechanic suuuucks.

 

As long as you keep arguing about the "jar simulation", you're never going actually reach anyone who complains about the change, because that's not the logic breaking / conflicting issue at hand. Having a puddle of water you can drink out of, but can't utilize as "water" seems to be.

 

In case I'm just projecting my own issues, here's how I see it: the OP wants to have "one jar"; that "one jar" would be permanent and allow the work of boiling the lake water to be used for whatever. As long as the jar is permanent, it's essentially the same as having plenty - you'll just have to do your mass production sequentially. His phrasing of the issue points to "having a way to handle natural waters is survival essentials" and yes, that to me sounds exactly the same as "not being able to purify lake water suuuuucks as an idea".

 

His scheme is broken in more than one way, it isn't even more realistic. He wants to create a magical jar that you only can have one of. And there is no other container in the world that can hold water except this one. That is as illogical as having no way to get water from a lake. I simply didn't care to dissect his scheme.

 

The post I was replying to was mostly how illogical it is that a bottle magically vanishes, in different words, except for one comment about the lake. I am sure he has a problem with not being able to get water from the lake. But he also hasn't really understood what it means to just have no containers simulated in the game and I was trying to explain the latter as it is the more fundamental problem or it just irks me more.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

I think it just comes down to what you value more: immersion from simulation of the details or challenge from game mechanics. I’m definitely in favor of game mechanics that bring interesting choices and challenges at the expense of simulated details. Quite a few people would rather have the details and probably couldn’t care less about water struggle even being an aspect of the early game. Other survival games that don’t even track thirst at all exist and are popular. 
 

The problem is that TFP at some point removed the challenge that used to exist, I suppose deeming it was too harsh for a vanilla experience, and now nobody has either unless you play 50% loot. That brings back the water struggle much closer to what I experienced pre A21 release. 

[meilodasreh]

14 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

You don't screw a tire onto a vehicle, you attached it to the studs and drive a nut down to keep it in place

You'd be surprised how common it is otherwhere on the world to have tire/wheel screws instead of nuts.

 

A great thing to store screws is a glass jar btw.

Pretty damn useful thing, wish we could have some in the game, I can imagine other use cases too...like getting water from a lake.

Will post that in the pimp dreams section.

 

[Uncle Al]

The jars logical disconnect goes away if you can accept that ground water is dirty enough so that it can never be effectively purified with what you have available, but still potable enough to be drinkable in an emergency.

 

Sure it would be more 'realistic' if you could collect 'really, really murky water' (that can't be purified) from water sources, but the gameplay doesn't really need it.

 

A lot of the grumbles I see come from folks who are fundamentally irked by 'game not being close enough to RL', who don't recognise that deviating from 'realism' in order to foster good gameplay is a good thing.

 

Yes we could 'not need a skillup to put meat on a grill' but then we'd need more low tier, useless when you get past them, cooking recipes and more 'don't exist in the real world' high tier recipes. If you can cook grilled meat on day one, then grilled meat would be a low fullness/costs hydration recipe like all the other 'starter' foods, and we'd need something else to replace it as the 'decent fullness, doesn't cost hydration' option that rewards skilling up cooking.

 

Weapons are the same. Yes we could have 100 weapon variants, but TFP seem (wisely) wedded to the idea that a weapon choice is seriously impactful in game terms. Using a shotgun plays very differently to a sniper rifle. How would using an FN FAL or a Steyr AUG be fundamentally different to the TAC rifle? It wouldn't be, so TFP don't bother putting such variants into the game.

[theFlu]

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

His scheme is broken in more than one way, it isn't even more realistic.

Sure, I agree that the infinity jar isn't any more realistic, but it is clearly trying to fix the issue of "can't find water standing next to a lake". It's a weird fix, for sure, but so is the "well, you just can't" ... at lest it would remedy the situation

 

In the gas cans analogue you like to go with; the water situation currently feels roughly like:

- You can loot gas "in cans" from a barrel, no probs.

- You can also loot a fuel pump, see the fuel there, but can't take it - "because you don't have a gas can on you". You can only put it in your vehicle directly.

(This would be more realistic than the water situation as real pumps work in mysterious ways, but I wouldn't advocate for the change.. )

[meilodasreh]

Fuel:

I want it, I go to a car, havest some, take it with me to use and/or store it for later.

 

Water:

I want it, I can go to a lake, take it with me to use and/or store it for later.....not.

 

And people who are complaining about this "logic" have a "broken sheme" 🤔

 

I already suggested a "drip collector" workstation, (some tind of tarp you put under a car, and it collects a certain amount of fuel a day that is leaking from the tank)

But nobody responded.😛😬

 

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

You'd be surprised how common it is otherwhere on the world to have tire/wheel screws instead of nuts.

 

Exactly:    https://www.accu.co.uk/p/131-difference-between-screws-and-bolts

 

9 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

A great thing to store screws is a glass jar btw.

Pretty damn useful thing, wish we could have some in the game, I can imagine other use cases too...like getting water from a lake.

Will post that in the pimp dreams section.

 

 

😆

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

Sure, I agree that the infinity jar isn't any more realistic, but it is clearly trying to fix the issue of "can't find water standing next to a lake". It's a weird fix, for sure, but so is the "well, you just can't" ... at lest it would remedy the situation

 

No it would not, as he wants the change so it would be more realistic. It would replace one unrealistic situation with another.

[meilodasreh]

10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Exactly:    https://www.accu.co.uk/p/131-difference-between-screws-and-bolts

🤔

Now I still can't tell the exact difference between screws and bolts, but the difference between screws/bolts and nuts stays obvious.

[Rotor]

6 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

🤔

Now I still can't tell the exact difference between screws and bolts, but the difference between screws/bolts and nuts stays obvious.

 

Allow me, first you have a Jar, then you put water in it, then you screw on the cap. :).

 

BMW wheels bolt on...another reason I have a love/hate affair with them.

 

See the difference?

 

I dont either :).

Edited December 8, 2023 by Rotor (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

not sure whether people didn't get the point or just wants to bug me...or this is all just some language problem.

Anyway, for everybody's total-off-topic information:

They both exist.

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

As both a mechanical engineer and working for a major Automotive OEM, you would never want to use a screw to fasten your wheels to the vehicle as screws do not have the necessary retention force needed for the application at hand.

 

9 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

not sure whether people didn't get the point or just wants to bug me...or this is all just some language problem.

Anyway, for everybody's total-off-topic information:

They both exist.

 

 

The first picture is the lug nut style fastening system used in primary American vehicles.  The second picture are wheel bolts as an alternative to the lug nut style fastening system (example I know German vehicles use this system).  Both are "bolt" system type of fasteners, though the wheel stud is more of a threaded shaft that is pressed into the hub while the wheel bolts fall under the traditional bolt category.

 

Neither of those examples are screws though.  I do know of two instances where screw is used around tires - one being a screw in type wheel stud and the second being rim screws used to secure the tires to the rims (typically in drag racing situations).

 

Easiest thing to say is just wheel fasteners as that covers both styles above.

 

And yes, I do have a copy of The Machinery’s Handbook at my desk.

 

One issue I have with the link provided is that they state the difference between screws and bolts in the US is more of a legal definition.  That is not correct.  Bolts by the nature of their design have a significant higher clamping force compared to screws.  That is one of the reasons they are used to fasten wheels to vehicles (another reason are bolts / nuts are easier to assemble and disassemble which is necessary for wheels as you will be removing and reinstalling them as you maintain your vehicle).  If any engineer out there tells you that they are simply interchangeable, no...just no.....  A bolt used where a screw would be sufficient would be okay, but using a screw where a bolt is required - I would be extremely worried about the fastener holding up to the task.

 

Quote

not sure whether people didn't get the point or just wants to bug me...or this is all just some language problem.

 

I just went into a detailed response on this subject, I am not one to judge  😏

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

No it would not, as he wants the change so it would be more realistic. It would replace one unrealistic situation with another.

The jar simulation would remain near-exactly as unrealistic, while the intellectual ability of our survivor character would become way more realistic. In sum sounds like an improvement in realism to me, even though it still remains a zombie game.

[Rotor]

7D2D is great, IMnsHO for the following reasons:

 

Some people play for the looter shooter.

Some people play for the world building/destruction aspect.

Some people play for the tower defense.

Some people play for the survivalist aspect.

 

I fall in the last one, and mix the others to support my survival.  The current water mechanic goes against my survivalist immersion.  Have I adjusted?  Sure, I dont lack water, I use the DiY water filter MOD.  I may have had to drink from my hands once.  Does it break immersion absolutely.

 

Is funny to me how some argue that the past mechanic was easy, but there is a trader and vending machine where you can get everything.

 

Maybe the intent is not to make it harder but, once again, force you back to the trader.

 

/shrugs I dont know , since the trader to me is immersion breaking from an all alone survivalist PoV in game.

 

And yes, there are MODs I know.  I havent even dowloaded the MOD to add jars.  I am using the MOD to make my own filter.  Because I should be able to.

 

I guess if the intent was to force me to the trader, then mission accomplished, in the early game.  As I did sell junk to buy liquids from vending machine.  So,  then I downloaded the water filter MOD.

 

I have nothing against MODs, until the day that the MOD makers retire, and is why some innate survivalist elements should be part of the core game.  

 

Yes, it is not MY game, I only play it and provide feedback.  No different than all the others I have played.

[warmer]

For all the complaining about how unrealistic it is for glass jars to disappear, I don't hear anyone complaining about how unrealistic a dew collect that makes 3 glass jars a day is.

[Deadfordays]

As far as water goes, honestly, unless you are not using vendors or playing in a single biome without rivers or lakes, try and locate a water purifier mod for your helmet. I play almost exclusively in coop with 2-4 other players that are family and I would safely say within the first 7 days we find a water purifier mod, or the instructions for one.  We then share the helmet to drink from a water source and then as we progress and find more filters, dehydration is irrelevant. We still make dew collectors, but they are pretty much just for cooking or ingredients for recipes.  I don't mind the lack of jars anymore, it does make it a challenge at first, but it becomes less of an issue fairly soon. 

[Rotor]

2 hours ago, warmer said:

For all the complaining about how unrealistic it is for glass jars to disappear, I don't hear anyone complaining about how unrealistic a dew collect that makes 3 glass jars a day is.

 

Have yet to build one.   Ya, bad implementation as well.

[meilodasreh]

4 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I just went into a detailed response on this subject, I am not one to judge  😏

Ah then it was a language thing on my side, I was simply referring to/defining "screws=part with outside thread" and "nut=part with threaded hole/inside thread", and assumed you did know only one type to attach a wheel, but there's these two.

My bad.

So it was meant more like "bolts and nuts fit together, via same thread" (more in the machining context), but the term "screw" is more common for the parts e.g. in woodworking, where you screw it right into the material you want to construct/tighten/connect/whatever...?

 

But you can still say "I screw a bolt into a threaded hole", or "screw a nut onto a bolt", right?

Well I like to claim my english is fine, but these little details still catch me.

 

...btw I knew a guy who bolted a screw in his nuts...heard he calls himself Sally nowadays.

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

As both a mechanical engineer and working for a major Automotive OEM, you would never want to use a screw to fasten your wheels to the vehicle as screws do not have the necessary retention force needed for the application at hand.

 

 

The first picture is the lug nut style fastening system used in primary American vehicles.  The second picture are wheel bolts as an alternative to the lug nut style fastening system (example I know German vehicles use this system).  Both are "bolt" system type of fasteners, though the wheel stud is more of a threaded shaft that is pressed into the hub while the wheel bolts fall under the traditional bolt category.

 

Neither of those examples are screws though.  I do know of two instances where screw is used around tires - one being a screw in type wheel stud and the second being rim screws used to secure the tires to the rims (typically in drag racing situations).

 

Easiest thing to say is just wheel fasteners as that covers both styles above.

 

And yes, I do have a copy of The Machinery’s Handbook at my desk.

 

One issue I have with the link provided is that they state the difference between screws and bolts in the US is more of a legal definition.  That is not correct.  Bolts by the nature of their design have a significant higher clamping force compared to screws.  That is one of the reasons they are used to fasten wheels to vehicles (another reason are bolts / nuts are easier to assemble and disassemble which is necessary for wheels as you will be removing and reinstalling them as you maintain your vehicle).  If any engineer out there tells you that they are simply interchangeable, no...just no.....  A bolt used where a screw would be sufficient would be okay, but using a screw where a bolt is required - I would be extremely worried about the fastener holding up to the task.

 

 

I just went into a detailed response on this subject, I am not one to judge  😏

 

What you seem to miss is that the terms are used differently in the US and elsewhere (so it seems). If we regard the info on that UK website as somewhat accurate then at least in the UK a bolt is just a sub-category of screw and one that isn't exactly defined. So a bolt is a screw as well, but a screw might not be a bolt. 

 

I found multiple websites that had VERY different definitions of bolts and screws and their difference. The encyclopedia britannica seems not to adhere to your definition of screw and bolt as well.

 

6 hours ago, theFlu said:

The jar simulation would remain near-exactly as unrealistic.

 

How can that be when currently the jar simulation is that the jar is NOT simulated at all 😄

Edited December 8, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Rotor]

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

How can that be when currently the jar simulation is that the jar is NOT simulated.

 

Before or after drinking the water?  Specifics

 

https://chenmark.com/weekly-thoughts/specifics-bob/

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Rotor said:

Maybe the intent is not to make it harder but, once again, force you back to the trader.

 

Maybe that you find it easy is because you are a veteran?

 

All alphas at least since A17 had been much much harder in their 0 version and were dimmed down heavily. Just as if the developers had balanced the game for the testers, who naturally are veterans as well. Then the game gets the exposure to the general public where veterans are a minority and suddenly the game gets trimmed down for Joe Average who is say 80% novice and 20% veteran-like.

 

4 minutes ago, Rotor said:

 

Before or after drinking the water?  Specifics

 

https://chenmark.com/weekly-thoughts/specifics-bob/

 

If you understand that there is no jar even before you drink a jar of water then you understand the non-simulation of jars in 7D2D 😉