Learn by doing/reading/leveling can be merged.

[Archael]

I know devs will not change their current system since this would require too much effort from them. I bought the game when crafting was meaningfull, and feel of loneliness was omnipresent, and i will try to maintain this by installing mods, perhaps learning by myself how to mod the game. And at the same time, i cannot recommend this game to anyone else than shooter players. But those are only my personal thoughts and opinions, noone hae to agree with me, the same how i can disagree with devs decisions. I gave them my support buying unfinished product in hope they will do it how the promissed (survival post-apocalyptic game), and i feel being cheated by them via introducing traders, promises of raiders, and introducing magazines in such way that only looting and questing can provide true progress, forgetting about gathering, mining, building... I was hoping development in terms of cooking, hunting, gathering because it was the only lacking thing imo, instead i got shooting, looting and trading.
But i have few ideas how to improve some experience and balance game towards people who bought it while it advertised as crafting survival, with at the same time not spoiling it for the players who likes current approach.

Here i would like to post an idea of three progression systems merged:

1. Magazines and books, which is learn by looting. Could teach people new perks, like current books and some attribute perks. Some perks from leveling could also be placed as books/magazines.
2. Leveling. Each lvl player gets skillpoints and can apply those to increase simple stats like damage increase, health regen etc. simmilar to current attribute increase.
3. Doing. When hitting enemy/block or getting hit, would increse characters knowlege about used thing, and with this increase quality and unlock new schematics of used item. Example: using pickaxe for log time, sitting in mine will teach character how to craft better pickaxes (not axes, not shovels). Works simmilar to current magazines but instead of reading its actual doing.

And if one looks for ingame explanation, here it is: When using an item for a long time, one can see its flaws and weakpoints and by practicing and keep trying they can learn how to make better thing.
If someone finds this explanation, then im sorry, lot of things in game are even more illogical.

[YourMirror]

I dont believe the kickstarter ONLY mentioned "survival post-apocalyptic game". Where did the other  mentioned merged genres go in your post. Forgot?

[Ramethzer0]

4 hours ago, Archael said:

Here i would like to post an idea of three progression systems merged:

1. Magazines and books, which is learn by looting. Could teach people new perks, like current books and some attribute perks. Some perks from leveling could also be placed as books/magazines.
2. Leveling. Each lvl player gets skillpoints and can apply those to increase simple stats like damage increase, health regen etc. simmilar to current attribute increase.
3. Doing. When hitting enemy/block or getting hit, would increse characters knowlege about used thing, and with this increase quality and unlock new schematics of used item. Example: using pickaxe for log time, sitting in mine will teach character how to craft better pickaxes (not axes, not shovels). Works simmilar to current magazines but instead of reading its actual doing.

And if one looks for ingame explanation, here it is: When using an item for a long time, one can see its flaws and weakpoints and by practicing and keep trying they can learn how to make better thing.
If someone finds this explanation, then im sorry, lot of things in game are even more illogical.

 

You are pretty much describing Alpha 16.   Here's a link for you.

 

 

[Archael]

Its funny how people ignore main point in discussion and stick to arguments irrelevant, thinking it is in any way valid to the discussion
And no, previous versions and mods are not solution, its other way around - because of those, devs are lazy and dont even try. Stop bringing those arguments. Instead, try to pinpoint what part of suggestion is bad, and why.
I think its good because it makes game more complex but not complicated. It enhances progression system in all apects and does not leave some people behind just by playing sandbox game as a sandbox game.
I understand that some people wants to concentrate on looter shooter aspect of the game, but my suggestion does not takes it away, but instead it enhances other playstyles. Especially in MP, where 2 people go for looting, one is hunting and cooking, and one is mining. Because in current system its impossible. Everyone needs to go looting and questing.

[BFT2020]

I don't think insulting the developers because they won't implement the game mechanics you want is going to get you anywhere.  Usually it has the complete opposite effect.

 

I don't see any form of LBD coming back to 7 Days to die, because that has been their constant message (it's not coming back) since A17 - that's been a full 5 development cycles now and they are planning on 2 more before final release.

 

My suggestion would be make your peace with the vision of the developers of 7D2D and start looking into alternate means of getting what you want - like seeing if there is a mod out there or maybe even collaborating with a mod creator to bring your vision to fulfillment.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Archael said:

because of those, devs are lazy and dont even try.

 

Think one minute about how illocial that sounds: The devs have invested 4 years of work into changing the game from something more like your vision to what it is now, becaus they are lazy? Wouldn't a  lazy dev simply have released A16 after some polishing? This look like the devs were intentionally doing this because they WANT the game to be this way.

 

And while you feel this is just a looter/shooter, I see all elements or genres in the game that the devs promised. I still feel it has survival and sandbox in it. I personally don't like the massive perk-bonuses of the magazine system which is the reason for the miner playstyle to be more difficult, but apart from that the magazine system is fine.

 

If you want to play A21 as a miner I would suggest to make yourself independent from crafting progression as much as possible and concentrate on the few magazine types you really need. For example by using the trader to get vehicles and also buy traps instead of crafting them. And having your looter put 2 points into lockpicking (which is still affordable even if he doesn't need anything else from INT), which ironically will make him find lots of engineering magazines to bring back to you AND help him opening safes.

You can get better armor, weapons and tools either from loot or the trader as well, no need to craft them.

He also should find enough farming and cooking magazines even if not specced into them so you can be farmer/cook. If necessary, he could leave magazine boxes in cities for you and you could, from time to time, make a short trip to town to loot them.

 

 

5 hours ago, Archael said:

Instead, try to pinpoint what part of suggestion is bad, and why.

 

Well, we can cut that short. Your suggestion is good and could be probably developed into a good game. Your draft naturally left out all the details, and only the details will determine if it eventually is a good or bad game for a specific group of players. It won't be implemented in vanilla, because the developers think they have a good game that appeals to many players as well and they have already tried out elements of your suggestions and did not like them.

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

On 10/4/2023 at 4:21 AM, Archael said:

1. Magazines and books, which is learn by looting. Could teach people new perks, like current books and some attribute perks. Some perks from leveling could also be placed as books/magazines.

 

Most people are okay with crafting recipes being governed by random book finds but are not okay with perks and skills being governed by random book finds. Expanding the books to be the way a player initially learns recipes and perks isn't going to go over very well. There is already a discussion going on where people dislike that it requires finding books to learn the improved versions of each crafting recipe. Add in perks that are currently under the full control of player choice and pacing and they would be livid.

 

On 10/4/2023 at 4:21 AM, Archael said:

2. Leveling. Each lvl player gets skillpoints and can apply those to increase simple stats like damage increase, health regen etc. simmilar to current attribute increase.

 

No real problem with this other than it makes spending points less exciting. When you spend points to get a brand new skill or ability it feels worthwhile. If you spend points just to increase a stat in an existing skill or ability its fine but not very exciting.

 

On 10/4/2023 at 4:21 AM, Archael said:

3. Doing. When hitting enemy/block or getting hit, would increse characters knowlege about used thing, and with this increase quality and unlock new schematics of used item. Example: using pickaxe for log time, sitting in mine will teach character how to craft better pickaxes (not axes, not shovels). Works simmilar to current magazines but instead of reading its actual doing.

 

The main weakness I see with learn by doing is the reduced freedom to play the game as you like to play it and instead have to grind activities you may not enjoy simply to improve your stats to the point that it starts being enjoyable. Skillpoint purchasing lets you play doing the activities you enjoy but you can spend points in other areas to improve them to the point where they aren't arduous to do. Mining is a great example. If you hate mining with a stone axe but that is the only way to improve your axe and abilities to the point that you can mine with a steel pickaxe and maintain your stamina while doing so then that isn't a very fun journey. But if you can spend skillpoints to get to that point without being forced to grind mining and then enjoy mining with your better abilities then that is much more enjoyable.

 

Another weakness of learn by doing is the way that it tends to overwhelm other gameplay loops and become the entire point of playing. Traders are a good example of the current state of the game. Trader and quest progression follows a learn by doing model. Questing gets you better at questing and brings greater rewards all for doing that activity. And what do we see? People complain that questing completely dominates the attention of players and is a must. Questing has ovewhelmed all other gameplay loops because of the power of the LBD incentive it carries. I was around before Alpha 11 which introduced the very first LBD mechanic of crafting to get better at crafting. It was like night and day how previously in Alpha 10 the game was about exploring, building, looting, and killing zombies and then in Alpha 11 it was about sitting around and spam crafting for the first few days to grind up all the tools. Spam crafting overwhelmed every other gameplay loop in the game and attaining top gear as quickly as possible became the whole reason for playing for a lot of people.

 

I'm not saying that there couldn't be a hybrid system developed that incorporated skillpoints, learn by reading, and learn by doing nor that with some careful limits applied it wouldn't be the best overall system we've ever seen. But there are reasons why not everyone is keen to return to LBD and it isn't purely laziness on the part of the developers that it most likely will never happen.

[Kalen]

21 minutes ago, Roland said:

The main weakness I see with learn by doing is the reduced freedom to play the game as you like to play it

 

An interesting thing to say.... this is one of the very large drawbacks of the magazine system.   The only way to improve your ability to craft is to loot.

[binf_shinana]

広義には、LBDと7dtdのSPシステムはある意味で同じといえます。
ただし、LBDが非常に直線的であることに対し、SPシステムはあらゆる行為で成長し、あらゆる成長パターンをプレイヤーが選択できます。

SPシステムで経験値を得る行為はゾンビ狩りに集中しており、その後割り振るスキルもほぼ固定になるというのであれば、それは全体のゲームバランスの問題であり、SPシステムに欠陥があるわけではありません。
SPシステムは多くのゲームでも当然のように採用されており、新鮮さがないと感じる方もいるかもしれませんが、真新しさを優先してゲームバランスを倒壊させるのは望ましくありません。
私はSPシステムの熱心な信奉者であるといえるでしょう。調整もLBDほど難しくありません。

LBDシステムも当然、LBD自体に問題があるのではありません。多様性がないため単一のスパムを助長することが問題です。
複数の要因によって成長させる事が可能だったり、それで得た経験値を一部他に割り振る事が可能だったりすれば、それはまた違う印象を与えてくれるでしょうが、実装難易度と調整が非常に難しいです。
 

In a broad sense, the LBD and 7dtd SP systems are, in a sense, the same.
However, while LBD is very linear, the SP system grows with every action, and players can choose any growth pattern.

If the act of gaining experience points in the SP system is concentrated on hunting zombies, and the skills assigned after that are almost fixed, then this is a problem with the overall game balance, and the SP system is not flawed.
The SP system has been adopted as a matter of course in many games, and some people may feel that it lacks freshness, but it is undesirable to destroy the game balance in favor of brand newness.
You could say I'm a big believer in the SP system. Adjustment is also not as difficult as LBD.

Of course, the problem with the LBD system is not the LBD itself. The problem is that the lack of diversity encourages a single type of spam.
If it were possible to grow based on multiple factors, or if it was possible to allocate some of the experience points gained from that, it would give a different impression, but the implementation difficulty and adjustment would be extremely difficult.

Edited October 5, 2023 by binf_shinana (see edit history)

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Kalen said:

 

An interesting thing to say.... this is one of the very large drawbacks of the magazine system.   The only way to improve your ability to craft is to loot.

 

The only way to find recipes, you mean, is to loot or shop for them.

 

I see the parallel there. My commiseration to anyone who dislikes looting. It is definitely a core game activity now.

[theFlu]

Hmm... a slow learn-by-doing just straight up added to the magazine system? As in, you can still do your paper boy -runs to improve your Iron pick crafting, but you would sporadically get a point or two of that while mining? Hard capped 3 points per hour, random chance per swing with a few minutes internal CD, something to that effect..?

[pApA^LeGBa]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

 It is definitely a core game activity now.

 

That alone isn´t a problem on it´s own. But after building up a playerbase and than completly turn over to a loot shooter is a problem. Now if they would have communicated that from the beginning that also wouldn´t be a problem. But letting people play for nearly 10 years and than deceiding to turn the game into a loot shooter basically over night is just bad. And yes, i know the legal terms of early access and what it means and that i only have the right to the version at the time of buying. But just because you can, doesn´t autimatically mean you should.

 

A behaviour like that is yet another reason why more and more people dislike early access. (Not blaming TFP for everything here, just saying the add another reason) They propably won´t go into early access with their next title, but if they do, i am surely not gonna touch it before beta or release.

Edited October 6, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Roland]

26 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

That alone isn´t a problem on it´s own. But after building up a playerbase and than completly turn over to a loot shooter is a problem. Now if they would have communicated that from the beginning that also wouldn´t be a problem. But letting people play for nearly 10 years and than deceiding to turn the game into a loot shooter basically over night is just bad. And yes, i know the legal terms of early access and what it means and that i only have the right to the version at the time of buying. But just because you can, doesn´t autimatically mean you should.

 

A behaviour like that is yet another reason why more and more people dislike early access. (Not blaming TFP for everything here, just saying the add another reason) They propably won´t go into early access with their next title, but if they do, i am surely not gonna touch it before beta or release.

The real problem is people like you who take an extreme view that the game is now purely a “looter shooter” when in fact it still is very much a hybrid survival, building, exploring, looting, and zombie killing game. Sure, looting got a huge increase in importance to where it cannot be ignored but that doesn’t make the game a “looter shooter” or invalidate the other aspects of the game. Just because you have to scavenge doesn’t mean that’s all there is.  Builders can still build and really can spend most of their time in the game building even though they must now do some looting as well. 
 

The emphasis has changed and something that could be ignored completely in the past can’t be ignored any longer but your stance is just ridiculous. The difference between what this game offers vs actual “looter shooters” is still huge. 

[pApA^LeGBa]

And how exactly do you get water if you spend most of the time building? It needs a lot of  looting to be able to buy enough filters to not having to worry about water anymore. It takes a lot of dew collectors if you only wanna rely on them. And yes you have to go looting for that or otherwise you won´t get any water. You will also struggle on hordenights if you spend the majority of the time building as you will be stuck with low level stone gear. And building without good tools? Nope. Need to go looting for that. And praying to RNGesus that it doesn´t take you too long to get enough magazines so you can mine properly, get a nailgun and defend yourself on hordenight and vs screamers. Oh and not to forget farming. And cooking. Beeing able to craft first aid items. That all needs looting. It doesn´t matter what you wanna do. It always involves a lot of looting. 

 

One of the worst things with magazines are quests wich you need to do as builder to be able to concentrate on building faster. You nearly found enough magazines after stopping at every mailbox to make that steel armor and then you get the set as a reward. Meh. Thanks for nothing. 

 

And i am the one beeing riddiculous here. Sure. You can´t say i don´t loot a lot in the first two weeks. It´s impossible.

 

TFP should have focused more on making the other biomes a must. They are basically useless. Also they wouldn´t need to force us into POI looting that much if the survival part would be actually worth beeing called survival. At thist point it only still exists so they can all it survival.

Edited October 6, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

33 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

And how exactly do you get water if you spend most of the time building?

 

Not to be a smartass, but how do you get anything at all if you spend most of your time building?

 

How do you learn to craft any gear that you may want?

[Roland]

33 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

You can´t say i don´t loot a lot in the first two weeks

 

There it is right there. You may have to loot a lot in the first two weeks to get yourself established with water and some decent tools but are you starting over after only the first two weeks? Is the first two weeks really the length and breadth of your entire playthrough? Given that you also believe that it is a must to double dip bookstores and other tactics like that is it really taking a full two weeks to get yourself to the point where you can shift into high gear with building? I don't think so.

 

For myself, I do a combination of base building and looting throughout the early game. But even if I ignored building altogether, I would have my water needs and tool needs handled within the first couple of weeks like you and then be able to focus on building to my heart's content the rest of my playthrough which would still tip the amount of time spent building in building's favor if that was my greatest love.

[pApA^LeGBa]

6 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Not to be a smartass, but how do you get anything at all if you spend most of your time building?

 

How do you learn to craft any gear that you may want?

 

Serious question? I mean you put points in the perk prior to A21.

[Maharin]

On 10/5/2023 at 5:26 AM, Archael said:

Its funny how people ignore main point in discussion and stick to arguments irrelevant, thinking it is in any way valid to the discussion

 

I find this point irrelevant and invalid.

 

What were we talking about?

[Ramethzer0]

On 10/5/2023 at 4:26 AM, Archael said:

Its funny how people ignore main point in discussion and stick to arguments irrelevant, thinking it is in any way valid to the discussion

 

Except you missed the part where alpha 16 has 95% of what you were explicit about.   I'm not sure what you're considering irrelevant here, as I've literally handed you the answer to your problem.   Aside from that, you can keep all that shade you threw about the devs.   They've spent years of focus toward a SINGLE title, and here you come from the cheap seats to toss your hot take onto the pile.   What did you think that was worth?

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

 

Except you missed the part where alpha 16 has 95% of what you were explicit about.   I'm not sure what you're considering irrelevant here, as I've literally handed you the answer to your problem.   Aside from that, you can keep all that shade you threw about the devs.   They've spent years of focus toward a SINGLE title, and here you come from the cheap seats to toss your hot take onto the pile.   What did you think that was worth?

 

A very valid point. The devs can't give everyone the game they want. They only have one vanilla to get them the game they want and some options to give a larger group what those players want. Everyone else has to find some older alpha or a mod if he wants something else.

 

The game was created with a lot of experimentation which is usually hidden from players in closed development games. It is inevitable that some players will find specific designs in older experiments to be better suited for them. As long as this sentiment isn't shared by almost all players the developers didn't anything wrong, they can't make everyone happy.

 

Though concerning your aside it is worth mentioning that he has as much right tossing his hot take onto the pile as you have praising them, even if it were certain that it won't result in any changes. This is a discussion forum. If he ever steps over the line you always have that button above to report the post to the moderators.

 

[Ramethzer0]

On 10/7/2023 at 7:14 AM, meganoth said:

Though concerning your aside it is worth mentioning that he has as much right tossing his hot take onto the pile as you have praising them, even if it were certain that it won't result in any changes. This is a discussion forum. If he ever steps over the line you always have that button above to report the post to the moderators.

 

 

 

I both do and do not agree with that.   The agree comes from the ability to express ones self here in the 'discussion' format.   I would never advocate to silence folks.

 

However, the caveat I feel that's relevant here is the content and language one uses to express that idea.   This is the part I don't have to accept.  If another forumgoer has the right to say what they feels, up until moderator intervention, then by the same logic shouldn't respond to said criticism with my desire to absolutely reject it?  I don't always need a report button to prove that point, which I see as a tool for potential silencing.  I'm speaking from the perspective of a participant in this conversation, not as some desire to position myself as a moderator.

 

I realize this can be hot button topic, but I just don't agree that all hot takes have value.  I could go on a whole other topic about how sensationalizing this has become popular across social media and from influencer types, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Khyron]

I thought about this and thought that it could be combined into "Learn by Experience".

 

As you fight with a club, you gain club XP. If you craft clubs, for yourself or others, you gain club XP. If you perk into clubs you gain club XP faster. And if you read a magazine, it grants a large amount of club XP. No matter what you're doing you're progressing along the path of the club;  Eventually you learn to make sturdier, more advanced clubs.

 

Driving grants a small but steady trickle of vehicle XP. Being struck while wearing armor grants armor crafting XP (As does crafting new armor). Cooking food, boiling water, etc. grants cooking XP. Making or using medicines grants medicine XP. Upgrading blocks would grant repair tool XP. Or you can just go out looting for magazines which give you the insight.

 

A combination of learn by doing, learn by reading, and 'learn by crafting' with perks boosting your growth rate. The best of all worlds?

 

Obviously it'd require a lot of testing to properly balance, but the fact that it would allow everyone to play their own way and still progress seems like it'd satisfy every playstyle for all players.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Khyron (see edit history)

[Roland]

22 minutes ago, Khyron said:

seems like it'd satisfy every playstyle for all players.

 

It would do so if people could just play the game at a normal pace, but the most vocal complainers about whatever mechanic is put into place are those who seek out the most efficient path to the top and then call all other paths unviable. If you did a hybrid between Learn by Doing, Learn by Crafting, and Learn by Reading, it would not take more than an hour or two before unsatisfied players started giving their scathing reviews about the devs FORCING players down one single path (whichever one is deemed the most efficient) and making the others weak pathetic alternatives. 

 

People who rush the game complain that there is only one viable way to play and they consume any new content within hours of an update and then call it a small pathetic update. There is no way to satisfy them. I think your idea would be satisfying to most people who play the game at a normal pace and don't have as their main objective to advance as quickly as possible but then again I think the current mechanic is satisfying to most people who play the game at a normal pace and don't have as their main objective to advance as quickly as possible.

 

I would be totally in favor of a hybrid system that uses all three methods of advancement but I also know it wouldn't satisfy everyone.

[Kalen]

4 hours ago, Khyron said:

A combination of learn by doing, learn by reading, and 'learn by crafting' with perks boosting your growth rate. The best of all worlds?

 

100% agree... well thought out plan.

[Rotor]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

I would be totally in favor of a hybrid system that uses all three methods of advancement but I also know it wouldn't satisfy everyone.

 

True, however, it is likely to satisfy the majority...maybe?  Who wants to count?