a21.1 b6 cloth cost increase

[Krougal]

The glue is the bottleneck as always anyway.

 

On the one hand, it is good to have item sinks.

 

On the other hand, yes tedium for tedium's sake does get old. I don't think it is too bad, I suppose if the glue weren't the delay the cloth might bother me.

 

Too funny about the cotton farm, but yeah, I guess I can't blame you.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, nostalginator said:

Introducing tedium for tedium's sake.  Penalizing us for playing too efficiently.

I doubt that very much. Otherwise, they wouldn't have increased the amount of cloth you get when you scrap clothes.

 

I started a new game on Friday and at no point did I run out of cloth. I just scrapped the clothes that I found. One visit to Savage County and you have enough cloth for the rest of the game.

[ElCabong]

I think this is not a bad idea.

 

I could not make a full set of padded armor last night because had to use 10 of it to make duct tape.

 

The first few days should be all about tough choices.

[Vaeliorin]

11 hours ago, RipClaw said:

One visit to Savage County and you have enough cloth for the rest of the game.

You know, people say this, but I went through a Savage Country and came out with ~3200 cloth.  Last night I wanted to make 500 duct tape, but I only had 5022 cloth, so I settled for making 100 duct tape, since I didn't want to use basically all my cloth just for duct tape.

[Riamus]

I don't mind since I don't use cloth for anything but I'll still point out that when a game has an item that always ends up stacked up and unused, it needs to have some changes made to it.  This can mean adding new recipes to use the item or increasing the quantity used in current recipes or reducing loot chance or something else.  I doubt anyone didn't have a ton of cloth in their chests unless they just didn't loot it.  This change will reduce the cloth clutter.  Maybe 10 is too much but that doesn't invalidate that a change to reduce the huge amounts of cloth sitting around in chests is needed.

 

They seemed to have decided to make it easier to get cloth by increasing scrap numbers while increasing the number of cloth needed.  This seems intended to not make getting enough cloth more difficult while still keeping unused cloth down.  If you're not trying to get cloth, your cloth use should keep cloth stored to a minimum.  You can still try to get cloth and get it easily enough when you need it.  But you're not going to just stack up tons of unnecessary cloth just from basic looting.  They could have made it so that cloth dropped less often instead but they chose this route.  Changing drop rates in loot tables affects all other loot drop rates, so this was the easier option.  Maybe it's not the best choice but you'll probably be used to it quickly.

[Anabella]

I didn’t keep tons of cloth. I sold extra stacks to the traders. I think this change doesn’t really anything good to the game.  

[Riamus]

The effect is the same.  There was an overabundance of cloth, whether you kept it or sold it.  Overabundance of a resource in a game really isn't a good thing.  This adjusts that.  Maybe it needs some tweaking of values (5 instead of 10, maybe) but otherwise I think the change makes sense.

[Anabella]

An over abundance of something is not bad. That is the number one way to get stuff to trade/sell in games.

[nostalginator]

4 hours ago, Riamus said:

The effect is the same.  There was an overabundance of cloth, whether you kept it or sold it.  Overabundance of a resource in a game really isn't a good thing.  This adjusts that.  Maybe it needs some tweaking of values (5 instead of 10, maybe) but otherwise I think the change makes sense.

 

The game doesn't take place on Mars, where your only resources are rocks and sand.  It takes place in civilization where the resources have already been produced but the number of people available to use them has been cut drastically (down to 1 if you're playing solo).  There's going to be an overabundance of resources.  You don't *have* to hoard them, but they will be there.

[Riamus]

5 hours ago, Anabella said:

An over abundance of something is not bad. That is the number one way to get stuff to trade/sell in games.

Overabundance isn't good for a game.  You can sell and trade things without having an overabundance of stuff.  For that matter, this game has so much money (dukes) that you don't have any reason to sell things except to get rid of them.  But even if there was a real market in this game, overabundance isn't good.  Let's just take this to an extreme and see if you feel it's not bad.... If you scrap a shirt and get 10k cloth from it, is that good?  After all, by what you said, it would be good so you have something to sell, right?  No.

 

31 minutes ago, nostalginator said:

 

The game doesn't take place on Mars, where your only resources are rocks and sand.  It takes place in civilization where the resources have already been produced but the number of people available to use them has been cut drastically (down to 1 if you're playing solo).  There's going to be an overabundance of resources.  You don't *have* to hoard them, but they will be there.

Game design and realism are two different things.  There are resources they don't let you get in the game - gems, ores, etc.  Why don't you get these?  Because the game has no use for them.  The game is going to be designed to have you use resources that you are able to obtain.  If the resources are either not being used because you get too much of them or the uses of them don't use enough of them, then they are going to balance that.

 

You can expect them to continue to adjust things to reduce overabundance in any part of the game where they see it.

[Vaeliorin]

1 minute ago, Riamus said:

You can expect them to continue to adjust things to reduce overabundance in any part of the game where they see it.

Cool, so they're going to nerf resources from mining?  I spent an ingame day (well, more like 3/4 of a day) mining since the trader didn't have any quests I was interested in, and I came back with 300k iron and 200k stone.  Seems like an overabundance to me (though truth be told, I'll probably use all of that eventually.)

[Riamus]

3 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

Cool, so they're going to nerf resources from mining?  I spent an ingame day (well, more like 3/4 of a day) mining since the trader didn't have any quests I was interested in, and I came back with 300k iron and 200k stone.  Seems like an overabundance to me (though truth be told, I'll probably use all of that eventually.)

A large amount of a resource is not the same thing as an overabundance of the resource.  If the game is designed to use a lot of something (like you do with iron and stone), then having a lot of it is not an overabundance.  If the game is not using a lot of a resource (like cloth, previously), then a lot of the resource is an overabundance.  They specifically made it so you use more of it so that you are using up the resource so it's not an overabundance even though they also made it so you can get more of it easily, proving that there is a difference -- they give you more but make you use more, so they didn't nerf how much you can get.  They made it so it wouldn't be an overabundance even though you can get more.

 

Also keep in mind that when you're mining, you are spending a lot of time to get that large amount of resources.  In A20, you would get a ton of cloth with no effort while you're looting everything else.  You didn't specifically go out to collect cloth (most didn't, anyhow) except perhaps in the first day to get cloth armor.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

A large amount of a resource is not the same thing as an overabundance of the resource.  If the game is designed to use a lot of something (like you do with iron and stone), then having a lot of it is not an overabundance.  If the game is not using a lot of a resource (like cloth, previously), then a lot of the resource is an overabundance.  They specifically made it so you use more of it so that you are using up the resource so it's not an overabundance even though they also made it so you can get more of it easily, proving that there is a difference -- they give you more but make you use more, so they didn't nerf how much you can get.  They made it so it wouldn't be an overabundance even though you can get more.

 

Also keep in mind that when you're mining, you are spending a lot of time to get that large amount of resources.  In A20, you would get a ton of cloth with no effort while you're looting everything else.  You didn't specifically go out to collect cloth (most didn't, anyhow) except perhaps in the first day to get cloth armor.

Eventually it doesn't matter. In a game like this you are always going to have "post-scarcity".

Unless there is a sink or you just abitrarily take stuff away from the player there comes a point when they are overloaded with crap.

For me I am restarting by then anyway it seems.

At least it isn't like Minecraft where there is "I don't have this, I need some" and then there is "I have this, I don't need anymore (because you've got a farm)" with really no in between.

[ElCabong]

Why not pile on more manure? Make it 2000

[pApA^LeGBa]

It´s almost like they want you to go in POI´s even more.

 

And yeah i know there is cotton. But that is limited, especially in MP, and even more boring than harvesting curtains, couches and such (shocker i know). Raiding a Savage country to go trough all the shelves isn´t exciting either and there isn´t always one near.  

Edited August 20, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[theFlu]

Well, you get whole 2 cloth per square meter of curtain; I know for a fact that my pockets are at least 100 square meters, each. Makes perfect sense.

Edited August 20, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[ElCabong]

32 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Well, you get whole 2 cloth per square meter of curtain; I know for a fact that my pockets are at least 100 square meters, each. Makes perfect sense

Now that you have put it in perspective, it does make perfect sense. The first home I bought was smaller than that.

[zztong]

In terms of "value", the double pocket mod is worth it, but yes it seems silly. To me, the important gatekeeper is the book that gives you the ability to craft them, not the cloth.

[Krougal]

1 minute ago, zztong said:

In terms of "value", the double pocket mod is worth it, but yes it seems silly. To me, the important gatekeeper is the book that gives you the ability to craft them, not the cloth.

Too true. Besides you are going to craft at most 5? I usually only use 2 triples. although I like to have a set of light and heavy armor ready to wear, but that means 4, and I think I've gotten so many as quest rewards/misc loot that I haven't even made any in b16.

 

I've used many stacks of cloth to make duct tape and I've still got like half a chest full of cloth. I honestly think this was a good change.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Krougal People always forget mulitplayer. That´s a whooping 3000 cloth for us. I wonder why they even bothered changing the recipe if clothing is to go away anyways.

 

Also making armor for 5 people needs 500 cloth per player aswell (Steel T5)

 

So that´s  5500 cloth only for the clothing mods and steel armor. Kinda riddiculous tbh. Not because it is so much. More because getting cloth is kinda not the most fun and exciting part of the game...

 

It really feels like crafting gets hit more and more in A21 at least for MP. Magazines are only a problem in MP aswell, same for water, don´t even need a dew collector in SP. That´s starting to look like a pattern here.

 

Also one person can use 3 double clothing pocket mods. Topic is not about the armor ones.

Edited August 20, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Rotor]

Well, I know a guy who needs a lot of cloth to carry all the stuff in his inventory.

 

[Krougal]

4 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Krougal People always forget mulitplayer. That´s a whooping 3000 cloth for us. I wonder why they even bothered changing the recipe if clothing is to go away anyways.

 

Also making armor for 5 people needs 500 cloth per player aswell (Steel T5)

 

So that´s  5500 cloth only for the clothing mods and steel armor. Kinda riddiculous tbh. Not because it is so much. More because getting cloth is kinda not the most fun and exciting part of the game...

 

It really feels like crafting gets hit more and more in A21 at least for MP. Magazines are only a problem in MP aswell, same for water, don´t even need a dew collector in SP. That´s starting to look like a pattern here.

 

Also one person can use 3 double clothing pocket mods. Topic is not about the armor ones.

I didn't forget, that means 5 people need to get off their ass and gather cloth.

Yes, I realize that means the 1 store is not going to be enough but once again 5 people can do more

 

I agree it's a PITA to distribute magazines efficiently but otherwise once again, you should be getting magazines 5x as quickly any way you slice it. So the magazines shouldn't suck anymore than they suck for the rest of us. I mean as a SP I still need pretty much every magazine, weapons excluded but I personally hate being limited to 1 weapon (or even 1 ability trees weapon).

 

I thought it was the armor, but yes, 3 double clothing mods...once and then you have them forever.

 

Do you really think it is that much of an issue?

[Pernicious]

6 minutes ago, Krougal said:

 

I agree it's a PITA to distribute magazines efficiently but otherwise once again, you should be getting magazines 5x as quickly any way you slice it.

I don't agree with that. There are some gains with larger parties and specialisations of skill. But looting isn't one of them.

 

If you don't split up, you're looting the same area = divide the same spoils with more people

 

If you split up, you have to travel further to avoid looting the same area, meaning less efficient.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Krougal I am not playing MP Coop to go looting POI´s alone. And instanced loot isn´t a thing in this game. So yeah it´s an issue. Especially because we have base mom who does all the farming, cooking, mining and building, a lot of building. She doesn´t like the looting part of the game at all and would never play this game alone, from her 3.5K hours 95% are MP the other 5% are from the prefab editor. And another party member sometimes just likes to go underground and mindlessly hit ores while chatting with us after a hard day at work.

 

@%$# us for wanting to play like we used to play for nearly 10 years right? Well there is mods ofc, but the general direction is concerning and i fear it´s getting even worse in the future to a point where you need several mods just to beeing able to play in a way that isn´t constant looting. Also the must to use the trader in MP and also in SP if you want to use certain weapons/ammo sucks.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Krougal]

6 hours ago, Pernicious said:

I don't agree with that. There are some gains with larger parties and specialisations of skill. But looting isn't one of them.

 

If you don't split up, you're looting the same area = divide the same spoils with more people

 

If you split up, you have to travel further to avoid looting the same area, meaning less efficient.

 

Ok, but you should be able to clear POIs much faster than a solo. So you should be able to clear more POIs in the same amount of time and therefore get more loot, and quest rewards, which are per person. Any way you slice it, a group should be more effective than a solo.

 

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Krougal I am not playing MP Coop to go looting POI´s alone. And instanced loot isn´t a thing in this game. So yeah it´s an issue. Especially because we have base mom who does all the farming, cooking, mining and building, a lot of building. She doesn´t like the looting part of the game at all and would never play this game alone, from her 3.5K hours 95% are MP the other 5% are from the prefab editor. And another party member sometimes just likes to go underground and mindlessly hit ores while chatting with us after a hard day at work.

 

@%$# us for wanting to play like we used to play for nearly 10 years right? Well there is mods ofc, but the general direction is concerning and i fear it´s getting even worse in the future to a point where you need several mods just to beeing able to play in a way that isn´t constant looting. Also the must to use the trader in MP and also in SP if you want to use certain weapons/ammo sucks.

 

 

 

Ok, so base mom doesn't need gear. Diggy diggy hole guy only needs mining gear. You aren't making a strong case.

 

As for your second para, that is as much a SP as a MP problem. All of us that don't like the direction the game has taken in one way or another are in that same boat.

 

I mean you don't like the change, I get it, and that's valid, but don't make some bull@%$# argument that doesn't have anything to do with the problem.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)