Traders and quests need to be nerfed

[theFlu]

A stronger VOTE.

 

A vote is still essentially an opinion, no?

 

"stronger", in the sense of "I think they actually might mean it."

 

The concept is the same as in "Watch what they do, not what they say." With possibly a less negative connotation.

[BFT2020]

8 minutes ago, theFlu said:

A stronger VOTE.

 

A vote is still essentially an opinion, no?

 

"stronger", in the sense of "I think they actually might mean it."

 

The concept is the same as in "Watch what they do, not what they say." With possibly a less negative connotation.

 

Are you a politician in real life?  😏

 

Not necessary, I have opinions on things, but doesn't mean I would vote for it.

Edited July 12, 2023 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[theFlu]

10 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Are you a politician in real life?  😏

I'm usually in the opposite side of dodging the point. I would lose my mind trying to avoid answering a question as much as they do...

 

10 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Not necessary, I have opinions on things, but doesn't mean I would vote for it.

You might not vote for it, but your actions speak louder than your words ..

 

Yes, there's a split there, between "you voting for what is good for the general audience and/or TFP" and "you 'voting' for what's good for you".. but for the latter, your mod is the actual 'vote' that counts.

Edited July 12, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, theFlu said:

Do you agree that a person spending, say 1000 hours (sorry BFT, I'm probably underselling your work) to "fix" something is a lot stronger show of actual belief of there being something wrong, than my measly 5...50 hours (however you want to measure it) of whining about stealth on the forums?

 

If this is the question you want answered, then my answer would be: Maybe, maybe not. And I would have to say that it is a leading question, a judge would throw it out of the court.

 

In those 5 hours you could actually complain about a real reason, a weakness in the game, while the modder invested 1000 hours for a completely different reason than to fix anything. I once made a mod because I found the idea nice, not because the game was necessarily better for it, not even better for me. I assume BFT has fun modding, so naturally he spends a lot of time modding. And he may have modded for a 1000 hours, but surely not all of that on one issue like making weapons unrepairable, give him some credit please 😁. Did you have fun complaining for 5 hours? Is your hobby to complain? Probably not.

 

Oh, nice comment by BFT about his motivation: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/32964-please-tell-me-what-is-the-deal-with-7dtd/?do=findComment&comment=530778

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

19 minutes ago, meganoth said:

And I would have to say that it is a leading question, a judge would throw it out of the court.

Leading question.. those two questions covered my original point, you missed one:

 

"Is a crafting re-write pointless to the discussion" in thread "Traders and quests need to be nerfed"? I'd say "crafting" is one of the things "traders and quests" need to be balanced against; I was talking to BFT, specifically about BFT's mod(ding).

 

But since you want to talk about all kinds of mods, from all kinds of people, for all kinds of motivations and NOT BFT's crafting re-write, you will consider the point "Irrelevant, Your Honor! Not all mods are like that!". Feel free, but you'll miss the point then.

Did BFT spend a thousand hours on exactly crafting? Probably not, I wouldn't know. But he's kept that part in the mod and advocates for changing things in that direction, so I'd assume he likes the results over a prolonged period of time. He has walked the walk of actually changing the trader / crafting balance to his liking, tested it out - why would I assume he doesn't think it's for the better? He's done it to make it worse for himself, and advocates others to share in his misery?

 

My 5 hours complaining about stealth have been entertaining, nothing beats a good whining session. Thanks for asking My inability/unwillingness to learn to create a better stealth system for the game... my draft ideas would require a re-design of basically all POIs and probably quite a few C#-level re-writes so I don't even pretend to want to take the task upon me. Makes my whining a lot less significant, as I have NOT tested anything I want.

 

His stated motivation.. "wanted to add my uniqueness". Sure, so it's still his unique opinion, has someone somewhere argued something different?

[EvilPolygons]

I was partly able to mitigate the "OP trader rewards" problem by simply using an item degradation mod. Now, even if a weapon or tool reward is better than what I can currently craft, anytime I repair that item, it can degrade a quality level.

With this sort of mechanic, quests can give nice rewards without making crafting irrelevant because a top-quality quest reward will eventually wear out and be crappier than what you can craft.

It also makes repairing equipment more of a strategic decision, because repairing too often may shorten the overall useful life of the tool. So it adds a bit more depth to that side of the game, as well.

Another plus with item degradation is that it removes part of the endgame wall you eventually hit in games, where you have the best of everything and there's no point in looting or questing because there's nothing better than what you already have; nothing stays the best for long and so you never run out of reasons to loot or craft.

 

[Ripflex]

Wow, this is a lot of pages on this issue.  But a question to the OP, was this Trader rewards OPness with Unranking Better Barter and Daring Adventurer ??  Because it matters.  IMO If player rank up Daring Adventurer and Better Barter alongside with Lucky Looter - they SHOULD get higher tier loot, or these skills are pointless to have if the game would gate you anyways with the changes you suggest; or am I missing something ?

 

Why I ask, I usually get 2 - 3 ranks as early as possible in those 3 skills in the purpose of obtaining better loot than what I can craft.

[meganoth]

32 minutes ago, Ripflex said:

Wow, this is a lot of pages on this issue.  But a question to the OP, was this Trader rewards OPness with Unranking Better Barter and Daring Adventurer ??  Because it matters.  IMO If player rank up Daring Adventurer and Better Barter alongside with Lucky Looter - they SHOULD get higher tier loot, or these skills are pointless to have if the game would gate you anyways with the changes you suggest; or am I missing something ?

 

Why I ask, I usually get 2 - 3 ranks as early as possible in those 3 skills in the purpose of obtaining better loot than what I can craft.

 

Since you are asking the OP specifically, he mentioned in his first post that he did not have any points in those perks.

 

But there is the additional question whether DA is too good? Compare it to Lucky Looter, the perk that boosts looting but doesn't seem to have that much of a loot boost that players would be compelled to perk into it even if they spec into a different attribute. My main reason for speccing into LL is the speed boost.

 

 

[Blake_]

I personally believe y'all make fair points. BUT, what if bandits are in, and a complex system of random encounters makes it in   and the game becomes much more difficult? then the crazy amount and quality of rewards and loot would be partially justified and naturally restrained. And then balancing would become easier.

[RipClaw]

10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

But there is the additional question whether DA is too good? Compare it to Lucky Looter, the perk that boosts looting but doesn't seem to have that much of a loot boost that players would be compelled to perk into it even if they spec into a different attribute. My main reason for speccing into LL is the speed boost.

Daring Adventurer is definitely strong because every level in Daring Adventurer alone is worth 10 player levels without doing any quests. Iron tools start at traderstage 15 and steel tools at traderstage 50.

 

Lucky Looter on the other hand doesn't help much at the beginning because it only increases the lootstage slightly, if at all. Level 1 is just 5% on top of the lootstage.

 

This whole "issue" doesn't concern most of the players anyway. It is, as MadMole would say, a vocal minority.

 

 

[meganoth]

17 hours ago, theFlu said:

"Is a crafting re-write pointless to the discussion" in thread "Traders and quests need to be nerfed"? I'd say "crafting" is one of the things "traders and quests" need to be balanced against; I was talking to BFT, specifically about BFT's mod(ding).

 

Sorry for that, I actually misread your "questions" as only singular "question" and actually wondered which one it was I should answer 😎

 

And I would answer: It depends on his motives and his tastes.

 

17 hours ago, theFlu said:

But since you want to talk about all kinds of mods, from all kinds of people, for all kinds of motivations and NOT BFT's crafting re-write, you will consider the point "Irrelevant, Your Honor! Not all mods are like that!". Feel free, but you'll miss the point then.

 

I just gave one example of a mod of mine and ALL the rest of my post was specifically about BFT and his 1000 hours (or whatever time he invested in modding already) which were certainly not all used to create a crafting rewrite. And this is what I am saying with the leading question: You imply that he invested 1000 hours only into the crafting rewrite, you imply that he did this because he is dissatisfied with crafting as it is. But both are just assumptions and I would prefer first asking BFT about that instead of assuming it.

 

17 hours ago, theFlu said:

Did BFT spend a thousand hours on exactly crafting? Probably not, I wouldn't know. But he's kept that part in the mod and advocates for changing things in that direction, so I'd assume he likes the results over a prolonged period of time. He has walked the walk of actually changing the trader / crafting balance to his liking, tested it out - why would I assume he doesn't think it's for the better? He's done it to make it worse for himself, and advocates others to share in his misery?

 

 

I think I remember BFT saying his tastes are different than the average 7d2d player or his mod not being the right one for most players. This may be modesty or simply the truth. And he advocated it to specific players having a problem with crafting because assumedly in these cases his mod likely is the solution. Does he think the mod should be adopted by TFP? Maybe.

 

Your theory is that his applying dozens of hours to mod it is a stronger vote than your posting, i.e. that it irks him more than it does you. But he seems to like modding and seem to like testing out ideas. Crafting might irk you both the same, but he turns to crafting to solve this and we simply don't know his threshold for irkiness where he will turn to modding. 

 

I am sure I could easily list a few forum users that seem to be much more dissatisfied with the game than BFT is but they never wrote a mod and just post.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[AtomicUs5000]

Are we still talking about traders and quests? I'm having a hard time following this vote-modding questionnaire debate. Does the winner get to decide if there should be changes or not?

[meganoth]

30 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

I personally believe y'all make fair points. BUT, what if bandits are in, and a complex system of random encounters makes it in   and the game becomes much more difficult? then the crazy amount and quality of rewards and loot would be partially justified and naturally restrained. And then balancing would become easier.

 

Even then players would want some of their equipment to fight bandits to come from looting or crafting and not all from the trader. The solution can be to reign in the trader OR to speed up looting and crafting.

 

 

6 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

Are we still talking about traders and quests? I'm having a hard time following this vote-modding questionnaire debate. Does the winner get to decide if there should be changes or not?

 

But we haven't even reached the "you said this 5 posts earlier" phase !!!  😁

 

 

[Roland]

I don't think we will know whether mods or popularity of mods is an actual indication of anything until the majority of the playerbase is participating in those things. Right now players who play mods are a minority faction of the player base and players who author mods are a smaller minority and players who author overhaul mods are extremely tiny. If there was no barrier at all to modding or playing mods so that everyone could do it we would likely have so many variants on the default version so as to see there really is no consensus at all about "fixing" anything.

 

Options are a good place to look for "voting". If 95% of the playerbase always adjusts their options to play 75% loot or less then that is a powerful vote that something is wrong with the loot balance. If 95% of the playerbase always enables feral sense every time they play then that is a strong vote to the devs for what the default version should be. Options are easy for everyone to participate in.

 

Just because a mod is popular among those who play mods doesn't make it a strong vote that the default version of the game needs to be changed in that direction. I also don't know at what point the devs would want to change a popular options to just being the default version of the game. If 90% 80% 70% of the playerbase always defaults to that option? What is the cut off point where that option would be viewed as a "fix" for the current default version? And if it is tough to know for such a clearcut action that is universally accessible like enabling an option then how much tougher is it to determine that based on authoring or playing a mod?

 

In the example brought up in this thread, item degradation is a very polarizing idea. I'm all for it but others would see it as breaking the game instead of fixing the game. If TFP ever adds an option for item degradation it would be interesting to see what percentage of the player base actually votes that the lack of it currently is something that is broken and needs fixing.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

47 minutes ago, Roland said:

In the example brought up in this thread, item degradation is a very polarizing idea. I'm all for it but others would see it as breaking the game instead of fixing the game. If TFP ever adds an option for item degradation it would be interesting to see what percentage of the player base actually votes that the lack of it currently is something that is broken and needs fixing.

It all depends on the implementation. I have read some comments from hardcore players suggesting that the item should lose one quality level for each repair. Q1 can't be repaired and Q6 can only be repaired 5 times. I think that would be total overkill, unless the durability is increased significantly.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Personally, I had no problems with A16.4 style degradation, but that was much more granular with items had 600 quality levels instead of 6, and it could be repaired.  The degradation I've seen mentioned lately would be awful, as I'd end up going through picks at a ferocious rate (I normally have to repair my pick 2-3 times a night.)

[theFlu]

5 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

Are we still talking about traders and quests?

Yeah, no, sorry. Already have an active warning point, don't need an A3-violation on top of that.

 

One thing I haven't pointed out about the original one-liner that spawned this page of diversion is this: I (also) kinda posted it to show some respect for BFT's modding efforts, as I had snarked at him earlier... but the well meaning quip has now been completely neutered, so: Kudos for yer efforts @BFT2020!

 

With that, I'm bowing out of that derailment; if you actually want me to reply to something about that, mega or anyone, drop me a DM.

[Rince]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Even then players would want some of their equipment to fight bandits to come from looting or crafting and not all from the trader. The solution can be to reign in the trader OR to speed up looting and crafting.

 

 

 

But we haven't even reached the "you said this 5 posts earlier" phase !!!  😁

 

 

I hope that they do not speed up crafting too much, I'm loving the slow pace.

I don't even care if I don't find almost, except scrap armor and iron tools, until day 70.

[FramFramson]

I don't have much to add other than I like the idea of requiring a few more quests before you unlock the next tier of quests, just to space it out a bit more.

 

Regardless of the solution in the end, the trader reward problem seems like a balance issue which can be resolved through simple numeric value changes, rather than any wholesale change to gameplay.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by FramFramson (see edit history)

[EvilPolygons]

9 hours ago, RipClaw said:

It all depends on the implementation. I have read some comments from hardcore players suggesting that the item should lose one quality level for each repair. Q1 can't be repaired and Q6 can only be repaired 5 times. I think that would be total overkill, unless the durability is increased significantly.

 

 

The mod I'm using gives a 50% chance of degradation per repair, so averaged out it feels pretty well balanced. It takes quite a while for a QL6 item to wear down to a QL1. The important thing is that stuff does eventually wear down, which means crafting (and looting, for that matter) always stays relevant even in the late game.

 

[RipClaw]

8 hours ago, EvilPolygons said:

The mod I'm using gives a 50% chance of degradation per repair, so averaged out it feels pretty well balanced. It takes quite a while for a QL6 item to wear down to a QL1. The important thing is that stuff does eventually wear down, which means crafting (and looting, for that matter) always stays relevant even in the late game.

On average, you'll have 10 repairs for a Q6 item you can't craft, or 8 repairs for a Q5 item you can craft if you've read enough magazines. This is not a lot, especially for items like a shovel, pickaxe or wrench. I repair these items quite often because I actually use them.

 

Crafting stays relevant for me in the late game even without item degradation. I primarily craft large quantities of steel, concrete, gunpowder, ammunition, and glue. And I'm not a fan of looting. I do it because I have to do it and I also get resources that I need for the crafting but that's it.

 

If I can squeeze 100-200 repairs out of an Q6 item before it is gone then we can talk but not with only 10 and only if you don't have the bad luck to lose a quality level with every repair.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[theFlu]

32 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

If I can squeeze 100-200 repairs out of an Q6 item before it is gone

100 repairs.. my gut feeling of a full 15 minute night of mining is about 2 repairs for a full Q6..? 50 nights, that would be 50/4 hours, so 12 hours of continued use. I'm not dissing if that's what you're doing, I like a good molerat session, but that still quite a bit, no?

[RipClaw]

18 minutes ago, theFlu said:

100 repairs.. my gut feeling of a full 15 minute night of mining is about 2 repairs for a full Q6..? 50 nights, that would be 50/4 hours, so 12 hours of continued use. I'm not dissing if that's what you're doing, I like a good molerat session, but that still quite a bit, no?

It depends on how you look at it. A total of 100 repairs for a Q6 before it is no longer repairable sounds like a lot, but you have to bear in mind that every time the quality level is reduced, the durability is reduced as well and the number of repairs will increase. It is not a linear progression.

 

It also depends on what other effects the loss of quality level has. If you also lose damage or mod slots, you might want to recraft the item rather sooner than later. Very few people will use an item until it is beyond repair.

 

For example, I can currently break rock, coal, nitrate, and oil shale blocks in one hit with my Q5 steel pickaxe. I would replace the pickaxe as soon as I need two or more hits to break these blocks, as I wouldn't want to lose this feature.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 minute ago, RipClaw said:

It depends on how you look at it. A total of 100 repairs for a Q6 before it is no longer repairable sounds like a lot, but you have to bear in mind that every time the quality level is reduced, the durability is reduced and the number of repairs required increases.

Ye, I was actually just editing that part in, but I'll go for a reply. Linear degradation of durability would turn my 'constant rate' -guess into a triangle, halfing the time; so 6ish hours total. (given my 7.5 mins / repair is close enough)

 

And for functional reasons, the two swing cut-off would be my pain point too. Optimally I'd want the two-swing vs one-shot speed change in itself fixed somehow, but can't assume we'll get a good one of those.. it doesn't seem to have a good solution.

 

In your case you'd just have a workbench pushing out new ones as fast as you're destroying them anyway, in-so-far as it wouldn't be limited by looting. Gathering 4-5 new parts even for every ~two hours of game time could get a little tiresome.

[meganoth]

2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

It depends on how you look at it. A total of 100 repairs for a Q6 before it is no longer repairable sounds like a lot, but you have to bear in mind that every time the quality level is reduced, the durability is reduced as well and the number of repairs will increase. It is not a linear progression.

 

It also depends on what other effects the loss of quality level has. If you also lose damage or mod slots, you might want to recraft the item rather sooner than later. Very few people will use an item until it is beyond repair.

 

For example, I can currently break rock, coal, nitrate, and oil shale blocks in one hit with my Q5 steel pickaxe. I would replace the pickaxe as soon as I need two or more hits to break these blocks, as I wouldn't want to lose this feature.

 

 

Correct. Because of this an item does not need to get unrepairable. It would suffice if any weapon degrades to quality1 and stays there endlessly repairable. It could even keep its mod slots, the damage reduction would usually push players to replace the item when the gain is big enough.

 

Speaking about your case, we know you have a play style that isn't normal and the balance for normal players would probably be perfectly fine with 10, maybe 15 repairs (exact amount determined by playtesting). You would have to take every chance to buy steel tool parts at the trader and if the worst comes to pass you would momentarily have to downgrade to iron tools or stay with quality 1 steel (if those don't break like suggested) for a time. The game isn't there to provide a carefree existence and relaxed athmosphere to anyone. 😉

 

 

5 minutes ago, theFlu said:

And for functional reasons, the two swing cut-off would be my pain point too. Optimally I'd want the two-swing vs one-shot speed change in itself fixed somehow, but can't assume we'll get a good one of those.. it doesn't seem to have a good solution.

 

I proposed a solution: Have a rather big random variation on the damage of every hit. That means the closer you are to one-hitting, the more often you would actually one-hit a block. Disadvantage, even if you one-hit you could need 2 hits for some blocks, I'm sure there are people who hate that as it breaks their "trance". But the major advantage is that every bit of damage helps, even if you are above one-hitting you would welcome any further damage upgrade as it diminishes the chance for two-hitting.