What was the point of the water change?

[Krougal]

4 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

 

BFT2020 kind of misunderstood my point too and also acted somewhat offended (well might be because the topic of empty jars is really polarizing

I had thought BFT's original point was misunderstood and that was that there were already at least 4 threads on this topic and why did we need another.

Considering this @%$#ing convo won't die I guess we did.

You're right, who thought empty jars would be so polarizing. Especially when I can think of a lot more things that bug me more that need fixing.

 

I mean I hated it at first as much as anyone. I remember reading it in the change notes and thinking "what a pointless and stupid change" and then starting to play and being a bit lost (as usual because, face it, they just about re-invent the game every alpha...so besides the water there is a lot going on to relearn).

 

Then I adjusted and adapted and now I couldn't give a @%$# less. It just honestly doesn't bother me and it is what it is and I just do what I need to do. Yeah, I hate making 200+ rolls of duct tape so I can get a pair of t6 junk turrets, drone and maybe a sidearm. Not enough to be bothered to mod the recipe costs (which would be trivial really) because once I've done that in a given game, I am not going to do it again.

 

I select T6 quest rewards based on how many dukes they are worth since I am going to sell them all back anyway. There just comes a point where it isn't worth worrying about.

 

I also don't feel the need for huge dew collector farms and I don't understand the outcry about screamers. I feel like I don't get enough screamers for what I run these days, I mean I've got 2 fires, 2 forges, 2 mixers, chem, & workbench going frequently. The heat from a handful of dew collectors is pretty irrelevant.

 

All that being said, I do think they need to find some way to let us use the bucket in recipes and also snow. I have all this useless snow because one can only make so many smoothies, and I can't even remake it into terrain to fill the constant holes being shot into it around my base.

 

By all means, everyone continue. I'm not looking to shut down anyone's opinion, just presenting mine.

 

[Rotor]

59 minutes ago, Maharin said:

 

You could have done that with fewer dots.  Such a waste.

 

I didnt have an empty water jar to compare size ratio.

[zztong]

2 hours ago, Krougal said:

I mean I hated it at first as much as anyone. I remember reading it in the change notes and thinking "what a pointless and stupid change" and then starting to play

 

That's where I landed too. I enjoy the convenience in not having empty jars, but loathe the inability to carry water away from a water source. But since I can mod the game to let me pull murky water bottles from water sources, I don't feel like fighting it.

 

TFP's version of the game without empty jars is quite playable and the 2-day water struggle is interesting. I feel like I got an equally interesting struggle by removing all food and water from the starting gear combined with the water source mod mentioned above. I'm good playing either way, though I prefer my modded experience.

Edited September 10, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[4sheetzngeegles]

Some of the conversations remind me of the matrix. What is real?

Welcome to the desert of the real.

 

Player: Where do the empty jars go.
TFP: Do not try and find the empty jars. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Player: MmHmm, What is the truth?
TFP: There are no jars.
Player: WTF, do you mean there are no jars? I've got one right here.  SEEEEE!!!!
TFP: You'll see: It is not the jars that are disappearing, it is only yourself.
Player: Whuh Da..... Poof.

TFP: Told Ya so

 

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

Some of the conversations remind me of the matrix. What is real?

Welcome to the desert of the real.

 

Player: Where do the empty jars go.
TFP: Do not try and find the empty jars. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Player: MmHmm, What is the truth?
TFP: There are no jars.
Player: WTF, do you mean there are no jars? I've got one right here.  SEEEEE!!!!
TFP: You'll see: It is not the jars that are disappearing, it is only yourself.
Player: Whuh Da..... Poof.

TFP: Told Ya so

 

Maybe they follow Bruce Lee's teachings... 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

57 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Maybe they follow Bruce Lee's teachings... 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I agree with you and Bruce Lee  "My childhood hero".
Something is definitely flowing somewhere. 💦But, without
a cup, bottle, teapot, or jar. In the end, its all just
a fluid discussion.🙇‍♂️

[Artfu1D0dger]

I logged into this forum after years just to complain about this

 

not even going to bother with presenting logic and reason just going to say this:

 

bring back the jars and all the old methods of collecting/making water

 

I do like the addition of rain collectors, but having them produce 'heat' especially at the rate they collect water (which is reasonable) is ridiculous

 

conclusion: bring back the jars and mechanics, leave the rain collectors without the heat production

 

The new mechanics are not reasonable.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Crater Creator
inflammatory/name calling (see edit history)

[Artfu1D0dger]

On 9/9/2023 at 9:54 AM, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

... I don't mind it. It was hard at first, but now I just setup a field of dew collectors at our farm and we're good. Granted, we run my mod that reduces heat from them down to 2% max instead of 10% max (I expect the devs to tweak this value at some point), but beyond that we're good with the change. I do miss grabbing water from lakes and rivers, but it's all good. Now it generates automatically for me.

 

I do wish that the collectors would rapidly produce water while it rains though. That or give us a water-collector. Either could be very useful.

 

I don't mind it, but i had to use a mod to make the change bearable

ffs

[Jost Amman]

5 hours ago, Artfu1D0dger said:

 

I don't mind it, but i had to use a mod to make the change bearable

ffs

Yeah, nowadays people simply can't play with the cards they're given.

Too hard? ... Mod it! 

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Yeah, nowadays people simply can't play with the cards they're given.

Too hard? ... Mod it! 

Too easy? Mod it!

 

You want hundreds of zombies on the streets? Mod it!
You want feral radioactive zombies on day 1? Mod it!
You want to die 20 times a day? Mod it!

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[binf_shinana]

Mod it!

バニラの範囲内で遊ぼうとすると、難易度設定で変化しない部分が問題になる面が確かにあります。
・おそらく、雑誌システムをどの難易度設定でも成立させるように、アイテム出現量が固定になったいくつかのルートボックス
・難易度設定にかかわらず肉が取れる量が変わらない動物
・水の入手量についても（露収集機で手に入る水の量は、難易度設定の影響を受けませんので）

 

(google translation)

Mod it!

If you try to play within the vanilla confines, there are definitely some aspects that don't change depending on the difficulty setting that become a problem.
- Possibly some loot boxes with a fixed amount of items to make the magazine system work on any difficulty setting
- Animals whose amount of meat remains the same regardless of the difficulty setting
- Regarding the amount of water obtained (the amount of water obtained from the dew collector is not affected by the difficulty setting)

[Artfu1D0dger]

9 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Yeah, nowadays people simply can't play with the cards they're given.

Too hard? ... Mod it! 

hey mr. big brain, a few years ago i rewrote the entirety of pretty much every .xml file in the config directory

it gets old having to rewrite the entire game whenever the devs like to make big brained changes like adding food poisoning to all the cooked dishes

 

also, i just finished putting the old jar/water mechanics back in the game

but thanks for the insightful comment

Edited September 12, 2023 by Artfu1D0dger (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Too easy? Mod it!

 

You want hundreds of zombies on the streets? Mod it!
You want feral radioactive zombies on day 1? Mod it!
You want to die 20 times a day? Mod it!

 

My comment was ironic...  

[rateds2k]

1 hour ago, Artfu1D0dger said:

hey mr. big brain, a few years ago i rewrote the entirety of pretty much every .xml file in the config directory

it gets old having to rewrite the entire game whenever the devs like to make big brained changes like adding food poisoning to all the cooked dishes

 

also, i just finished putting the old jar/water mechanics back in the game

but thanks for the insightful comment

Last I checked this game is in Alpha, Everything is subject to change.  You complain that it gets old having to constantly change stuff, but you know it is an Alpha. Me thinks you just like to complain

[meilodasreh]

1 hour ago, rateds2k said:

Last I checked this game is in Alpha, Everything is subject to change.

good point. On the other hand, the term "alpha version" is in this case - if you look at the actual definition in IT business - not really applicable/fitting anymore.

An alpha version of a software should be a buggy, contentless, unstable mess of a crude framework that's not meant for public use.

7D2D A21, the game at it's current state, imo is a fully functional, stable running version. As was A20 before, and even looked further back.

If TFP were EA they'd released the game as "gold" at maybe A8, and sold you all following alphas as full-price content additions.

I don't get why they still define it as "alpha", the many years of development and amount of alphas...there is some time where you just have to stop experimenting and changing main game mechanics, because the game is already far developed, regardless what term you use to define it's state.

I'd be fine if they added bandits to A20 and call it done, but instead they completely changed the progression system, really a central element of the game.

Yes, it had it's flaws, but really, in the end it worked fine. What exactly did they have against it to make that step?

The previous "alpha" was/is actually accessible for the public, and so "proven by the user", and with great acceptance and success.

The game was already around top 10 in the steam statistics, so it wasn't really that bad that it obviously seemed to be in need of a bigger change, was it?

 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

but instead they completely changed the progression system, really a central element of the game.

 

No they didn't. And it is so obvious they didn't that I really can't imagine how anyone could write this with a straight face.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

36 minutes ago, meganoth said:

No they didn't. And it is so obvious they didn't that I really can't imagine how anyone could write this with a straight face.

Well... to meilodasreh's defense, the owl hasn't got exactly a straight face... 

[Roland]

23 hours ago, Artfu1D0dger said:

I logged into this forum after years just to complain about this

 

not even going to bother with presenting logic and reason just going to say this:

 

bring back the jars and all the old methods of collecting/making water

 

I do like the addition of rain collectors, but having them produce 'heat' especially at the rate they collect water (which is reasonable) is ridiculous

 

conclusion: bring back the jars and mechanics, leave the rain collectors without the heat production

 

The new mechanics are not reasonable.

 

Welcome back!

 

In the case of the empty glass jars you should expect to mod those back in if you want them. One of the major reasons for the changes was that the devs wanted to remove the empty container and have jars work just like everything else that holds a consumable. So even if they choose to somehow adjust the current mechanics again or allow us to gather water from sources and bring it back to boil, it won't involve bringing empty glass jars back to the game.

 

As for heat, I don't get why people care so much what does or doesn't generate heat. There is no meter for it that we are supposed to track or manage. Frankly, I never worry about it at all. If I get screamers I kill them and any resulting horde and continue with life. If it gets too bad then I start separating workstations to separate locations to reduce the centralized source that is generating the heat. I usually stop at five dew collectors and have plenty of water and no discernable increase in screamer activity from that. You mentioned not wanting to hear anyone try to explain how the feature might be reasonable so I'll forbear from doing so but I definitely can understand why a large dew collector farm would add to the amount of noticeable activity and attract zombies....

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Artfu1D0dger said:

also, i just finished putting the old jar/water mechanics back in the game

 

Great job. But the devs left those assets in the code on purpose so that modders could uncomment them and get them back if they wanted. It shouldn't have been a very tough "mod" to bring jars back....

[Artfu1D0dger]

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

...But the devs left those assets in the code on purpose so that modders could uncomment them and get them back if they wanted. It shouldn't have been a very tough "mod" to bring jars back....

 

I wish it was just removing comments, the inventory icons have been removed from the asset bundle and they changed the way you collect water from the ground, so took some guesswork

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Artfu1D0dger said:

 

I wish it was just removing comments, the inventory icons have been removed from the asset bundle and they changed the way you collect water from the ground, so took some guesswork

Well then really good job. I didn’t know it was going to be that difficult to reverse. I’m glad you were able to make it happen.

[meilodasreh]

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

No they didn't. And it is so obvious they didn't that I really can't imagine how anyone could write this with a straight face.

Just like still using the term "alpha" for the game, one can of course always choose to call the introduction of the magazine system a "small adjustment" instead "complete change", as always a thing of perspective/definition. Of course also influenced on one's general attitude towards that topic. I admit that because I don't like that change, I'd rather call it a big change away from how I'd used to like the game.

[Krougal]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

 

As for heat, I don't get why people care so much what does or doesn't generate heat. There is no meter for it that we are supposed to track or manage. Frankly, I never worry about it at all. If I get screamers I kill them and any resulting horde and continue with life. If it gets too bad then I start separating workstations to separate locations to reduce the centralized source that is generating the heat. I usually stop at five dew collectors and have plenty of water and no discernable increase in screamer activity from that. You mentioned not wanting to hear anyone try to explain how the feature might be reasonable so I'll forbear from doing so but I definitely can understand why a large dew collector farm would add to the amount of noticeable activity and attract zombies....

 

 

I think the majority of people don't understand the concept of "heat" and instead take it as the device generates literal heat; which as it started with campfires, torches, the lab, etc. is somewhat understandable I guess. So they are angry and confused why a water collector would generate heat.

 

It doesn't seem like heat generates while the chunks aren't active, so loading up everything in the morning and heading out while it burns away is a good way to cut down on screamers. 

[RipClaw]

6 hours ago, Krougal said:

I think the majority of people don't understand the concept of "heat" and instead take it as the device generates literal heat; which as it started with campfires, torches, the lab, etc. is somewhat understandable I guess. So they are angry and confused why a water collector would generate heat.

I understand the concept of "heat equals activity" but still think the balancing of the heat from the dew collectors is off. 4 dew collectors generate the same heat as a forge but they run 24/7 and if you want to craft larger amounts of glue then you need more dew collectors. I have 12 dew collectors which equals 3 forges. If I then turn on another workstation then a screamer spawns shortly after.

 

In multiplayer, the amount of dew collectors needed just to supply players with drinking water is often enough to spawn screamers.

 

7 hours ago, Krougal said:

It doesn't seem like heat generates while the chunks aren't active, so loading up everything in the morning and heading out while it burns away is a good way to cut down on screamers. 

The chunk is sometimes kept loaded longer than you think. I once had the case that I did a longer quest and on the return flight I saw the green box from my land claim block already from several kilometers away. The chunk must have been loaded the whole time and at my base several screamers were waiting for me.

 

[Ianua]

On 9/7/2023 at 7:24 PM, Maharin said:

Glass jars are now sharp sticks.  If you find one you've found them both.

I don't think many people are gonna get that joke, but I remember and Salute you.

On 9/9/2023 at 7:54 AM, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

I didn't realize people were still finding out about the jar change. I don't mind it. It was hard at first, but now I just setup a field of dew collectors at our farm and we're good. Granted, we run my mod that reduces heat from them down to 2% max instead of 10% max (I expect the devs to tweak this value at some point), but beyond that we're good with the change. I do miss grabbing water from lakes and rivers, but it's all good. Now it generates automatically for me.

 

I do wish that the collectors would rapidly produce water while it rains though. That or give us a water-collector. Either could be very useful.

Wait until TFP bring back that zombies attack farm plots... Do zombies attack dew collectors?

On 9/12/2023 at 10:05 PM, Krougal said:

 

I think the majority of people don't understand the concept of "heat" and instead take it as the device generates literal heat; which as it started with campfires, torches, the lab, etc. is somewhat understandable I guess. So they are angry and confused why a water collector would generate heat.

 

It doesn't seem like heat generates while the chunks aren't active, so loading up everything in the morning and heading out while it burns away is a good way to cut down on screamers. 

I can recall "back in the day" setting up 10 campfires on the sides of an abandoned building to call zombies to kill. We would set them all up, load them with wood and perch on a different building and pick them off for xp. Can't recall what version that was, but the ferals could teleport (i don't think literally, but frack they were fast.)

[Krougal]

41 minutes ago, Ianua said:

I don't think many people are gonna get that joke, but I remember and Salute you.

Wait until TFP bring back that zombies attack farm plots... Do zombies attack dew collectors?

I can recall "back in the day" setting up 10 campfires on the sides of an abandoned building to call zombies to kill. We would set them all up, load them with wood and perch on a different building and pick them off for xp. Can't recall what version that was, but the ferals could teleport (i don't think literally, but frack they were fast.)

No, they don't attack the dew collectors. I don't know if that was an oversight or by design, but as of right now they are safe outside on the ground.