What was the point of the water change?

[ShadeColdfang]

18 minutes ago, vom said:

Ok, there's no pond.

 

Even if there was, how can you put the water in a bottle?

Is it even possible to survive anymore without depending on the trader?

it is possible, u just need to aproach it differently. Jars have been removed and u can drink from Water sources with an Empty hand selected and then a prompt will pop up (Press "E" to drink from Water).
Dew collectors are bad and can hinder progression in a very bad way if it comes to cooking water or using the water for other stuff.
And if u really want independence back of filling jars and not just looting Murky water or giving a Trader u hard earned coin. u may have to resort to Modding

[Riamus]

3 minutes ago, vom said:

I'm sure if you make zombies easy to kill, you can easily loot and survive.

If you were playing against more difficult zombies, you would really question whether the survival aspect of the game is possible.

I could make the zombies easier to kill, but then it's too cartoony and not a game worth playing.

It's apparently no longer possible to survive in the wilderness, you have to get a dew collector?

That just killed an entire playstyle.

Who said anything about zombies?  Are you saying you are unable to loot at all?  If you aren't able to loot because of your difficulty setting, then it is too high for you.  There are plenty of tier 1 houses and even some of the tier 0 remnants have toilets as well.  You should be able to loot these regardless of difficulty.

 

And yes, you need dew collectors if you don't want to loot.  Even so, it is quite possible to play in the wilderness.  It is harder but that isn't a bad thing.

 

Just to point out, jars won't be coming back.  You have a couple options.  Adjust how you get water to what works now, use a mod to add jars back or whatever you want to make water trivial again, or stick to A20.  There isn't an option to have easy mode for water in vanilla anymore.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[vom]

2 minutes ago, Riamus said:

If you aren't able to loot because of your difficulty setting, then it is too high for you.

Well, when there isn't any water, sure.

 

I enjoyed playing with challenging zombies, so that it was very difficult and generally unwise to go into buildings. Not playing on easy mode like most of you. However, without water, there's just no possibility of survival.

 

If I have to make the zombies easier to kill, in order to access water, the game will just be boring and too easy. Not worth playing.

Edited July 19, 2023 by vom (see edit history)

[Kam R.]

I used to do "Can't go further than 250m radius from spawn"-challenges. Yeah those are pretty dead by now. Or way too easy since you just spawn next to loot-laden towns anyway.

 

Hardest Difficulty Zs wilderness survival? Not without looting at least some wilderness POIs. Gotta be sneaky and also maybe good at breaking walls/doors to go straight to the relevant rooms of a house instead of following the leveldesigner-path. Can avoid Zs pretty well that way, learned that in my "pacifist"-run:]

No idea how well it will work with always run/feral on...

Natural bodies of water still exist and you CAN drink from them at least, you may have to crank up the options "rivers" and "lakes" for map generation..

I think I'll try a map with no towns/traders/cities and low amount of wilderness POIs. And hardest difficulty too.

 

But those are extreme settings and always keep in mind that the vast majority of players don't play extreme settings and the devs obviously will cater to that crowd.

[BFT2020]

20 minutes ago, vom said:

Well, when there isn't any water, sure.

 

I enjoyed playing with challenging zombies, so that it was very difficult and generally unwise to go into buildings. Not playing on easy mode like most of you. However, without water, there's just no possibility of survival.

 

If I have to make the zombies easier to kill, in order to access water, the game will just be boring and too easy. Not worth playing.

 

I play on survivor level and have no issues finding water. 

[vom]

Just now, BFT2020 said:

I play on survivor level and have no issues

Yes, if you play on easy mode, the game is easy.

It's also not very fun.

[BFT2020]

10 minutes ago, vom said:

Yes, if you play on easy mode, the game is easy.

It's also not very fun.

 

Survivor is not easy mode, sorry bro, but not going to let you troll me.  Unless you removed all POIs and all loot containers from the game, water can be found if you play smart.

[Maharin]

11 minutes ago, vom said:

Yes, if you play on easy mode, the game is easy.

It's also not very fun.

 

Do you realize how insulting you are within this thread?

 

You're being Apocalypse Karen.

 

Surprise, as TFP changes the game that may require you to make changes to your play style and/or mod the game.  Duh?  Every person in this thread that tries to help you gets insulted by you.  You are not letting anyone help you.

[vom]

Just now, Maharin said:

 

You are not letting anyone help you.

 

Ok Karen.

 

Thanks for the "help".

[zztong]

1 hour ago, vom said:

Is it even possible to survive anymore without depending on the trader?

 

43 minutes ago, vom said:

That just killed an entire playstyle.

 

It is possible, though more difficult in A21, but I do admire that play style. I fondly remember games where I would play like a survivalist.

 

Without modifying the game, and without visiting traders for quests or to buy things, and without buying things from vending machines, you must raid POIs to find a cookpot and bottles of mirky water if you want to make potable water. Otherwise, you'll only have mirky water if you drink from a river, pond, or swimming pool. If you stick to only the wilderness you'll have longer walks between POIs than if you were to enter a city.

 

If I were playing that way, which I do find appealing, I would probably mod the game to allow me to carry mirky water away from a water source. I would also add a recipe to craft the filter for the dew collector from something like cloth, sand, and charcoal. Then I'd change the dew collector to produce mirky water.

[4sheetzngeegles]

@Vom

 

If your character dies this playthrough, try this. I have two that I flip between, 1 my way,

Nomadic scavenger, TFP POI as bases. the other testing each of the changes to see or feel

how it adjusts the game feel for me.

 

Push your boundaries from day one and do sweep and clears of Pois with 3 plus skulls, look

for the tall hospital, and the high school. For me it seems that at my low level if I hunt and kill

in the 4 plus skulls, I get more survival gear, and books for cooking, basic crafting. I only used the forge

to make a pot, I found a ton of grills but no pot.

 

From there you might be able to expand into your personal way to play. But this alpha, is probably the closest

to a well rounded "attempt". I only say it because I have always been entrenched in one genre style, WD inspired.

This Alpha I still play my way in one save, but i also now play arcade, shoot em up, sandbox, and min/max testing.

Never was interested in it before. But since the options are there i try them like a buffet. I still will mod things foe me

personally if I need to, that the cherry on top.

 

[Abusimplea]

2 hours ago, vom said:

Yes, if you play on easy mode, the game is easy.
It's also not very fun.

Well, git gud then.

[ToneJumper]

I'm a newbie from a21, and I feel awkward about the water availability.

 

My thought was like this.

I have finally set up my campfire with my pot, I am able to purify murky water. Then, where I can get the bottled murky water? Just from the looting?

Okay, there should be another way. How about getting water from the pond with my bucket. Yay now I have water. How I can drink this? No?

Aha, there is a dew collector. I need a water filter to craft this. How to get the filter? Probably after I will able to craft my workbench. It's too early method for me.

Then, yesterday, I found and noticed the water filter was sold by traders and was not craft-able. And the dew collector provides me purified water. Fine😐

Edited July 21, 2023 by ToneJumper (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, ToneJumper said:

I'm a newbie from a21, and I feel awkward about the water availability.

Yeh, it used to be a little better, but then they wanted to make it difficult.. and broke logic. It works, for suitably weird definitions of work.

[Lamblaska]

5 hours ago, ToneJumper said:

I'm a newbie from a21, and I feel awkward about the water availability.

 

My thought was like this.

I have finally set up my campfire with my pot, I am able to purify murky water. Then, where I can get the bottled murky water? Just from the looting?

Okay, there should be another way. How about getting water from the pond with my bucket. Yay now I have water. How I can drink this? No?

Aha, there is a dew collector. I need a water filter to craft this. How to get the filter? Probably after I will able to craft my workbench. It's too early method for me.

Then, yesterday, I found and noticed the water filter was sold by traders and was not craft-able. And the dew collector provides me purified water. Fine😐

 

 

You will get murky water usually by looting toilettes and kitchens. This will require constantly looting. 
In order to "produce" water. You will need to get water purifiers from traders(either by buying them for 1750 dukes or getting them as rewards for quests).
The water purifier is used to build a dew collector, that will basically collect 3 purified water each day (in game time). keep in mind it adds heat, meaning it will eventually attract more screamers to your location. 

In the past, you kept the empty jars. Using the empty jars you were able to fill them at any lake or pool or anything that could hold water. It was way easier to deal with water in the past. And it is a polemic topic as you can see. 

My suggestion is... for drinking purposes, always mix your water with something. If you are struggling with food. Red Tea might help you. If you are only struggling with water... Yucca juice is your friend. You can also make some goldenrod tea and drink water form lakes, and use your red tea when you get sick. 

[meganoth]

10 hours ago, ToneJumper said:

I'm a newbie from a21, and I feel awkward about the water availability.

 

My thought was like this.

I have finally set up my campfire with my pot, I am able to purify murky water. Then, where I can get the bottled murky water? Just from the looting?

Okay, there should be another way. How about getting water from the pond with my bucket. Yay now I have water. How I can drink this? No?

Aha, there is a dew collector. I need a water filter to craft this. How to get the filter? Probably after I will able to craft my workbench. It's too early method for me.

Then, yesterday, I found and noticed the water filter was sold by traders and was not craft-able. And the dew collector provides me purified water. Fine😐

 

Did you notice there is a Journal in the game with lots of information? If you are stumped again, take a look.

There is a section about water and the water filter for example

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Did you notice there is a Journal in the game with lots of information? If you are stumped again, take a look.

There is a section about water and the water filter for example

 

The problem with that is most people never look at the journal and new players may not even really know about it.  You see a toast message for a second or two saying an entry was added and then it disappears.  And that often happens in the middle of fighting or doing something so you don't even see it.  The tutorial doesn't tell you to open the journal for information.  In the end, it is unknown or forgotten or ignored by people because it is not made more noticeable.  Most games have journal entries pop up onto the screen, making it noticeable.  Here, I wouldn't be surprised if most new players have no idea there even is a journal.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Riamus said:

The problem with that is most people never look at the journal and new players may not even really know about it.  You see a toast message for a second or two saying an entry was added and then it disappears.  And that often happens in the middle of fighting or doing something so you don't even see it.  The tutorial doesn't tell you to open the journal for information.  In the end, it is unknown or forgotten or ignored by people because it is not made more noticeable.  Most games have journal entries pop up onto the screen, making it noticeable.  Here, I wouldn't be surprised if most new players have no idea there even is a journal.

 

There is a big icon on the menu line on top among other options. I don't have any pity for players who don't click at least once through those options and check out what there is in night 1 or 2.

 

 

[Vaeliorin]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

There is a big icon on the menu line on top among other options. I don't have any pity for players who don't click at least once through those options and check out what there is in night 1 or 2.

If there was a way to pause the game to read those, I might agree with you.  But as a new player (even as an experienced player) I wouldn't want to spend the time to read those while the day ticks away.

[ToneJumper]

@theFlu

@Lamblaska

Yes, it seems it was more fair and practical reasons. It is hard to believe a person in the zombie apocalypse waste any empty jar.

 

17 hours ago, Lamblaska said:

My suggestion is... for drinking purposes, always mix your water with something. If you are struggling with food. Red Tea might help you. If you are only struggling with water... Yucca juice is your friend. You can also make some goldenrod tea and drink water form lakes, and use your red tea when you get sick. 

Thanks for your suggestion. The drinks have more benefits than I thought until now.

 

 

12 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Did you notice there is a Journal in the game with lots of information? If you are stumped again, take a look.

There is a section about water and the water filter for example

 

I did not come up with that. I will try.

Edited July 22, 2023 by ToneJumper (see edit history)

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

If there was a way to pause the game to read those, I might agree with you.  But as a new player (even as an experienced player) I wouldn't want to spend the time to read those while the day ticks away.

 

Spoken like a brute squad 😁. In any war information is one of the most valuable resources.

 

So when would you spend XP points as a new player?  Since you first have to read the descriptions to know where to put points and what you don't need at the moment? Wasted time to read? You read something and you get valuable information for that, right?

 

Similarily what about if you die of thirst on day 2 as a new player because you don't have a clue how to get water? Would it have been wasted time to read the journal entry then?

 

I am not saying someone should read through all of journal pages on night 1, but he has ample opportunity to be aware there is a sort of info system where he could look up stuff if something isn't clear to him, like where to find water or food.

 

Time is only wasted if after that time you are not better prepared fo whats coming. And getting the info about the water filter is surely worth more than the few hundred xp you get for shooting zombies from your hideout in that first night 😉

 

PS: Actually as a single player you can pause the game while reading such a page with ESC

Edited July 22, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

PS: Actually as a single player you can pause the game while reading such a page with ESC

Open Journal, press ESC, closes journal...

Open Journal, take a screenie, press esc a couple times for pause, go find the screenie. Handy-dandy.

 

I'm firmly in the RTFM-camp myself, I like to figure things out by reading.. but for games, ehh... ain't nobody got time to sit still reading. I'm here to shoot zeds, goshdarnit! I'd prefer if the skills and journal entries and whatnot were readable outside the game, which is what wikis and such are for of course. But an option from the start menu wouldn't hurt. Might even have a more read-friendly format.

 

Atm, just make a test game and read them in there, except for the journal as it isn't unlocked...

 

Hoping for some changes with the UI-redesign.

[Lamblaska]

4 hours ago, ToneJumper said:

@theFlu

@Lamblaska

Yes, it seems it was more fair and practical reasons. It is hard to believe a person in the zombie apocalypse waste any empty jar.

 

Thanks for your suggestion. The drinks have more benefits than I thought until now.

 

 

I did not come up with that. I will try.

From a balance perspective.... Jars made water management too easy. Almost any recipe will waste them and you would just accumulate them more and more. Fill them at any pool and boil them easily. It was also one more thing to carry around (but I think the main point has to increase the challenge for water).

From a immersion perspective... I just take it as most of the things in game, how they are carried around is abstracted, as it happens with food, ammo, and craft materials. Let's be honest here... there's little logic on how things stack in this game. You can stack 125 murky waters but only 10 waters or teas or juices. You can carry 6K small rocks, but only 1 car battery for each slot. I don't understand the logic behind it.

 

[Rotor]

1 hour ago, Lamblaska said:

 I don't understand the logic behind it.
 

 

/handwavythingie

 

Gates Think You Must.

[Vaeliorin]

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Spoken like a brute squad 😁. In any war information is one of the most valuable resources.

 

So when would you spend XP points as a new player?  Since you first have to read the descriptions to know where to put points and what you don't need at the moment? Wasted time to read? You read something and you get valuable information for that, right?

 

Similarily what about if you die of thirst on day 2 as a new player because you don't have a clue how to get water? Would it have been wasted time to read the journal entry then?

 

I am not saying someone should read through all of journal pages on night 1, but he has ample opportunity to be aware there is a sort of info system where he could look up stuff if something isn't clear to him, like where to find water or food.

 

Time is only wasted if after that time you are not better prepared fo whats coming. And getting the info about the water filter is surely worth more than the few hundred xp you get for shooting zombies from your hideout in that first night 😉

 

PS: Actually as a single player you can pause the game while reading such a page with ESC

Actually, kinda the opposite.  But I remember my first time playing I was terrified about getting things done for the first horde (granted, A16 hordes were a lot harder than modern hordes) and I've never been one to hide in my base at night.  Night times were spent sneaking around mining surface boulders and cutting down trees.  There's just so much information in the journal that it would take even a fast reader a pretty decent time to read all of it (I still don't know that I've read all of it, even at close to 2k hours.)

6 hours ago, Lamblaska said:

You can carry 6K small rocks, but only 1 car battery for each slot. I don't understand the logic behind it.

Rocks don't have individual quality/durability, while car batteries do.  That's why they can't really stack.

 

I do wonder what people with normal stack sizes do with engines.  I usually end up with 3-4 storage crates full of batteries by the end of a world, if I had to do that with engines as well it'd be crazy.  My last A21 world I had 104 engines on Day 18 or so, and having those not stack (to 12) would have been awful.