Nothing says open world survival crafting like being forced to run quests.....

[BFT2020]

If you don't like the new crafting system, mod it out.  Just takes a bit of effort and not really hard to do.  Heck, you just need to go back to A20 progression file and look at how they tied recipe unlocks to perks.

 

Schematics are still in the game so you can use the current items file as a reference.

 

Personally, I am loving the new crafting system.

[Kosmic Kerman]

7 minutes ago, Survior said:

This gives absolutely no explanation (*as there is none*) as why you would kill game loops for crafting/farming as they have done, you literally don't have to do those things if you don't want to but, they want to force you play the game in a specific way, that's not a sandbox, it's more linear looter shooter. Why kill the fun of a certain group of people? A lot of people would never touch farming or make their crafting base beyond basic survival needs. Why kill it for others?

 

TLDR: Making the game fun for one group didn't require killing the fun for another group.

 

 

 

This isn’t about you. It’s about the game TFP wants to create. Limiting crafting skill progression to looting books drastically changes the leveling curve. Obviously they found that way of leveling more enjoyable. It’s not about what you or I want. Vanilla is not supposed to be all things for all people.   Vanilla is how TFP want it to be. Mods are for those who want a different experience. 

 

 

Just now, Kosmic Kerman said:

This isn’t about you. It’s about the game TFP wants to create. Limiting crafting skill progression to looting books drastically changes the leveling curve. Obviously they found that way of leveling more enjoyable. It’s not about what you or I want. Vanilla is not supposed to be all things for all people.   Vanilla is how TFP want it to be. Mods are for those who want a different experience. 

 

 

Rereading your post it seems you are arguing there is no legitimate reason for the change. That’s obviously not true. The change drastically changes the progression curve. The fact that some players preferred not to loot or liked to power level does not make the change less valid. It just means those players need to adapt to the new system or mod it out. 

[VALL]

1 hour ago, Survior said:

This gives absolutely no explanation (*as there is none*) as why you would kill game loops for crafting/farming as they have done, you literally don't have to do those things if you don't want to but, they want to force you play the game in a specific way, that's not a sandbox, it's more linear looter shooter. Why kill the fun of a certain group of people? A lot of people would never touch farming or make their crafting base beyond basic survival needs. Why kill it for others?

 

TLDR: Making the game fun for one group didn't require killing the fun for another group.

 

 

 

Well said.

 

 

 

Rereading your post it seems you are arguing there is no legitimate reason for the change. That’s obviously not true. The change drastically changes the progression curve. The fact that some players preferred not to loot or liked to power level does not make the change less valid. It just means those players need to adapt to the new system or mod it out. 

 

Right. Again the point is that you took all xp and progression away from survival and crafting and moved it all to running around and looting. Very much a complete 180 for the game. Not sure I understand it. We are just gonna be playing fortnite after a while.

I'll still play heavily modded versions of the game. I think the graphical and art improvement are mostly top notch. Random Gen seems much improved. They did a lot of stuff right, don't get me wrong. I just wish it was a survival and crafting game and not whatever this has become.

Edited June 13, 2023 by VALL (see edit history)

[Survior]

54 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

This isn’t about you. It’s about the game TFP wants to create. Limiting crafting skill progression to looting books drastically changes the leveling curve. Obviously they found that way of leveling more enjoyable. It’s not about what you or I want. Vanilla is not supposed to be all things for all people.   Vanilla is how TFP want it to be.

 

This is such genius logic it should be on the box, or the front page of the web site. "7d2d isn't about players, it's about the devs and what they think is cool -- recently.."

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

1 minute ago, Survior said:

This is such genius logic it should be on the box, or the front page of the web site. "7d2d isn't about players, it's about the devs and what they think is cool -- recently.."

 

Would be way better if the web site said “We cater to everyone‘s whims and desires. Yes our game has no core concept or direction and none of our systems make sense or work together but that is a price we are willing to pay. “ 

[Survior]

2 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Would be way better if the web site said “We cater to everyone‘s whims and desires. Yes our game has no core concept or direction and none of our systems make sense or work together but that is a price we are willing to pay. “ 

half of that statement is actually already true now since you get a new game type every year

 

[meganoth]

16 hours ago, Frekton said:

One sentence to ignore 90% of the op's comments.... Not helpful at all.

 

Can't say anything about that. Can't say anything about that. You don't need to do quests. You can just loot buildings, craft and build. Can't say anything about that. Can't say anything about that. Can't say anything about that.

 

Is that better now? 😁

 

Seriously, his rant didn't really say if he just doesn't want to quest or not enter POIs. Or what else he wants, the game also allows a player just to craft and build after all. I thought it a good way to get from rant to a conversation though when I checked back here right now the thread already had moved on.

[boban]

1 hour ago, Maxwar said:

A large portion of the active players use mods. 

 

I wish to see some stats for that really. From what I heard mods are something that (for most games) is totally not economically to make, just show how you love your dedicated fanbase. I heard numbers ranging from 0.5% to 2% of players that use mods (I think the biggest quote I've seen was 8% for Skyrim, but I don't know how true it is).

[Exxodous]

What is it exactly you feel you can't do any longer? Gather infinite water from the river?  Have you tried this?  Walk to the waters edge, open creative menu and give yourself 10000 murky water, close menu.   It's about as challenging and time consuming as getting water used to be.

[VALL]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Can't say anything about that. Can't say anything about that. You don't need to do quests. You can just loot buildings, craft and build. Can't say anything about that. Can't say anything about that. Can't say anything about that.

 

Is that better now? 😁

 

Seriously, his rant didn't really say if he just doesn't want to quest or not enter POIs. Or what else he wants, the game also allows a player just to craft and build after all. I thought it a good way to get from rant to a conversation though when I checked back here right now the thread already had moved on.

 

So you admit you are just trolling. I never asked for a conversation. You are just assuming that. I am simply giving the developers feedback from someone that has bought the game and played it a long time. If you want me to explain my reasoning I am happy to. As I already explained every POI *IS* a quest now. Regardless of weather or not you pick it up from the trader. You can't craft without finding randomly placed thousands of books. Just not very immersive or fun. Very forcefull way to force people into POI's for a game that should be a more open concept. That is my opinion. Shrug. Hope you have a great day.

[Exxodous]

14 minutes ago, VALL said:

 

So you admit you are just trolling. I never asked for a conversation. You are just assuming that. I am simply giving the developers feedback from someone that has bought the game and played it a long time. If you want me to explain my reasoning I am happy to. As I already explained every POI *IS* a quest now. Regardless of weather or not you pick it up from the trader. You can't craft without finding randomly placed thousands of books. Just not very immersive or fun. Very forcefull way to force people into POI's for a game that should be a more open concept. That is my opinion. Shrug. Hope you have a great day.

But you can craft without ever finding one book,  I think what you mean is you can't craft top quality items by mining rocks all day and spending skill points.  Maybe that's why they are called skill points instead of recipe points?  

[Scyris]

18 hours ago, VALL said:

You don't need to do quests. You can just loot buildings, craft and build.

 

Right...So the only way to survive is to run through poi's constantly. Thats limiting the game to only 1 type of playstyle. Why? All I was saying.

 

Also what makes you think Undead Legacy won´t use those magazines aswell in A21? Maybe subquake likes the system and keeps it in UL.

 

Fingers crossed. Hopefully he has better taste.

 

Didn't you get he memo? thats TFPs thing since a17: removing choice from the player to force a certain playstyle.

 

Stat system still sucks, its 5 level gates now instead of the 1 they were trying to fix in a16.4 So good job on making the problem worse. A21 makes this even worse with the removal of sex t-rex, instead of having to waste some points into str, now I need to waste points in all 5 stats if I wanna get stamina costs down with everything.. Good job. Now if Sex t-rex was put back in str AND you keep the ones in the weapon lines in other stats that'd be nice, so you as the player could choose, but... as I said, tfp has a thing with removing choice from the player.  Its the same with removing underground bases as zombies can dig, you did this, but then made "smart" zombies you can you super easly exploit the AI of, which means you can still dodge bloodmoon if you want to. All they did was take away a playstyle for no real reason.

 

Anyway, as for the learn by reading, I am kinda hoping this transforms into learn by doing for the weapons, like you need 20 club skill to learn say pummel pete 2 instead of it being a stat thing. Could also tie headshot damage into the action skill as well. Look at Darkness Falls TFP, I mean you stole enough stuff from that mod(and other mods) that you deff have played it. The modder fixed a16.4 skill system problems perfectly, its literally all you had to do to fix it. Instead you go to this stat system no one wanted, and is much worse than the old a16.4 system.

 

On the flip side, I personally like learn by reading, why you ask? its rather simple, it makes each game different. Before learn by reading i'd always get the same stats, the same recipies always at the same level because it was the optimal path, however now, its randomized, so I have to adapt to what I happened to learn in my exploration. Makes each game play a bit differently. My current game my club craft skill is like.. 2 books, I've basically not found any and its my main melee weapon even have 1 in pummel pete too. Not complaining about this, I rather like it, the randomness of it. Sometimes I get the forge on day 1 in a21, other times its not till day 3 or 4. I remember back in a15 and below you couldn't just spend a perk point to unlock the forge you HAD to find the book, I've had games where it was week 2+ and I still have not found the book, or a poi with a working forge.

[BFT2020]

If it bothers you so much, mod back in Sex Rex.  Personally, I like the fact I don't have to spec in Strength anymore to max out stamina reduction for knives or batons.  I also like that I can now speed up any weapon without having to spec into agility.

 

TBD is dead, devs have stated countless times it is not coming back.

[Maxwar]

2 hours ago, boban said:

 

I wish to see some stats for that really. From what I heard mods are something that (for most games) is totally not economically to make, just show how you love your dedicated fanbase. I heard numbers ranging from 0.5% to 2% of players that use mods (I think the biggest quote I've seen was 8% for Skyrim, but I don't know how true it is).

I don't know how we could get reliable stats. Admittedly I said that without actual backing numbers but I would bet you a mega crush that 7DTD have significantly more mod users than most games. Maybe not as much as Skyrim though.  

 

The catch here is that what I meant by "active players" are the people who play it regularly on PC. As opposed to people who have it sitting in their steam library but did not play it very much or at all. And let's not talk about the console players, poor folks.   

[pApA^LeGBa]

4 hours ago, boban said:

 

I wish to see some stats for that really. From what I heard mods are something that (for most games) is totally not economically to make, just show how you love your dedicated fanbase. I heard numbers ranging from 0.5% to 2% of players that use mods (I think the biggest quote I've seen was 8% for Skyrim, but I don't know how true it is).

 

Hard to tell i guess, but the Darkness Falls Discord has about 3K members. Doesn´t mean all of them play the mod, but also not everyone who plays it joined the discord. I am the only one i our group of 5 who is in the discord and we play it regulary.

[boban]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Hard to tell i guess, but the Darkness Falls Discord has about 3K members. Doesn´t mean all of them play the mod, but also not everyone who plays it joined the discord. I am the only one i our group of 5 who is in the discord and we play it regulary.

 

Yea, maybe TFP have some way of tracking that but otherwise it's a guess work. According to steamspy 7d2d sold 10M-20M copies. Let's be conservative and go for 10M. And let's be generous and triple the number of discord users to 10k (so the math is easy) DF players. It gives us 1% of all players. That math is wonky as there are too many unknowns though, but a number close to 1%-3% of all players using mods for 7d2d wouldn't really surprise me.

2 hours ago, Maxwar said:

I don't know how we could get reliable stats. Admittedly I said that without actual backing numbers but I would bet you a mega crush that 7DTD have significantly more mod users than most games. Maybe not as much as Skyrim though.  

 

The catch here is that what I meant by "active players" are the people who play it regularly on PC. As opposed to people who have it sitting in their steam library but did not play it very much or at all. And let's not talk about the console players, poor folks.   

 

We can't get the stats. Maybe even TFP can't (unless they have some stats tracking built in). Though I would still guess that it's tiny minority of all TFP customers. In general modding is something you support in a game, because you either believe it's cool or you love your community. IIRC TFP founders originate from modding scene, so it might be both

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, VALL said:

 

So you admit you are just trolling.

 

I wouldn't call it trolling when I simply give an answer/counterpoint to one interpretation of a complaint that had multiple possible interpretations. 

 

6 hours ago, VALL said:

 

I never asked for a conversation.

 

Sure. But this is a forum, anyone can talk to anyone and butt into any proclamation if he wants.

 

6 hours ago, VALL said:

 

You are just assuming that. I am simply giving the developers feedback from someone that has bought the game and played it a long time. If you want me to explain my reasoning I am happy to. As I already explained every POI *IS* a quest now. Regardless of weather or not you pick it up from the trader. You can't craft without finding randomly placed thousands of books. Just not very immersive or fun. Very forcefull way to force people into POI's for a game that should be a more open concept. That is my opinion. Shrug. Hope you have a great day.

 

In my (admittedly worthless) opinion this paraphraph would work much better as feedback than your initial post. 

 

 

[Maverick]

I am a builder, 7days has been my building game since Alpha 2. I am really happy with new blocks and deco items for me to play with.

Me being a builder though, also means I am not playing 7days for the looting/shooting. I am good at it, but it's not why I play the game.

Me now being forced to now start looting excessively just to be able to craft the tools I need to build my creations, or get potable water while sitting next to a lake, is someone else deciding how I should play this game. It's taking away the freedom this game was great for.

I really don't understand why POI looting is forced down our throat, other than it being a gimmicky way of slowing progression.

But that's just the thing: I decide my own pace of progression.

 

Great games give players the tools to play the devs game the players way.

Weak games give players one way to play the game.

 

Cheers,

 

Mafke

 

[Greymantle]

On 6/12/2023 at 2:23 PM, VALL said:

Really not a fan of the last several iterations of trying to "fix" the crafting/looting/skills systems. What is going on? Why are we being forced to play an open world survival game a certain type of way?, it makes no sense. I don't want to have to grind POI quests all day. It just feels cumbersome and a constant grind instead of any sort of natural progression. All of the graphical improvements, Random gen, everything you guys have done has been awesome. But what the hell is the deal with finding and looting a million books. Is this really because you put a ton of work into POI's so you feel you have to force everyone to run them all the time? And what is the deal with setting up all POI's now with every single zombie being hidden or bursting out of a wall, or dropping from the ceiling. Is just randomly being ambushed with almost no control what you think is fun? The progression just feels so bad, and isn't fun or entertaining trying to track down millions of books. Why did someone think this would be fun? I am very confused. Any way we can get a classic mode or something and revert back to the original systems. I recommend taking a look at undeadlegacy or some of the mods that are at least trying to sort of do interesting things without making it just feel ugh....

Pretty much nailed it. The mini book/magazine game along with the new water game is boring as h e l l.  If I was CEO of the company, I would fire those that were involved with this choice of a game-play loop. And yes, I would fire Mad Mole if he is the reason for this abomination of a game-play loop.

59 minutes ago, Maverick said:

I am a builder, 7days has been my building game since Alpha 2. I am really happy with new blocks and deco items for me to play with.

Me being a builder though, also means I am not playing 7days for the looting/shooting. I am good at it, but it's not why I play the game.

Me now being forced to now start looting excessively just to be able to craft the tools I need to build my creations, or get potable water while sitting next to a lake, is someone else deciding how I should play this game. It's taking away the freedom this game was great for.

I really don't understand why POI looting is forced down our throat, other than it being a gimmicky way of slowing progression.

But that's just the thing: I decide my own pace of progression.

 

Great games give players the tools to play the devs game the players way.

Weak games give players one way to play the game.

 

Cheers,

 

Mafke

 

The slow move to force players to play their way as been going on for a few versions. This version though was the huge leap in forcing game-play on us. I have no idea why they needed to make this change, and no idea why they thought it was a good change.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Greymantle (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

I am a builder, 7days has been my building game since Alpha 2. I am really happy with new blocks and deco items for me to play with.

Me being a builder though, also means I am not playing 7days for the looting/shooting. I am good at it, but it's not why I play the game.

Me now being forced to now start looting excessively just to be able to craft the tools I need to build my creations, or get potable water while sitting next to a lake, is someone else deciding how I should play this game. It's taking away the freedom this game was great for.

I really don't understand why POI looting is forced down our throat, other than it being a gimmicky way of slowing progression.

But that's just the thing: I decide my own pace of progression.

 

Great games give players the tools to play the devs game the players way.

Weak games give players one way to play the game.

 

Cheers,

 

Mafke

 

 

The game has a mode specifically for players wanting freedom and it is turned on with the "cm" command. Just give yourself a filter, a low level iron pickaxe and 20 magazines of your choice and the rest will likely work out because you can buy everything including better tools and magazines at the trader, just like before. You just need to have a source of income.

 

As a disclaimer: I haven't tried this out, so feel free to correct me if there is a problem with this method.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

I am a builder, 7days has been my building game since Alpha 2. I am really happy with new blocks and deco items for me to play with.

Me being a builder though, also means I am not playing 7days for the looting/shooting. I am good at it, but it's not why I play the game.

Me now being forced to now start looting excessively just to be able to craft the tools I need to build my creations, or get potable water while sitting next to a lake, is someone else deciding how I should play this game. It's taking away the freedom this game was great for.

I really don't understand why POI looting is forced down our throat, other than it being a gimmicky way of slowing progression.

But that's just the thing: I decide my own pace of progression.

 

Great games give players the tools to play the devs game the players way.

Weak games give players one way to play the game.

 

Cheers,

 

Mafke

 

What was your approach in A20?  A lot of items require parts or resources that can only be acquired through looting. Did you skip steel tools or tier 2 and 3 weapons? If you were using traps, how would you get the required resources?l

[RipClaw]

34 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

What was your approach in A20?  A lot of items require parts or resources that can only be acquired through looting

That's true but iron tools, T1 melee weapons and T0 guns don't require parts.

 

In fact you can build a forge, a workbench and a cement mixer in A20 without looting a single container. You just need to know a few tricks.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

43 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

What was your approach in A20?  A lot of items require parts or resources that can only be acquired through looting. Did you skip steel tools or tier 2 and 3 weapons? If you were using traps, how would you get the required resources?l

I probably only looted one POI a week after Day 14 in A20, and I never had an issue.  Granted, I'd loot random trash and cars as I was moving around the world, but I had plenty of parts for steel tools and such (after all, you only need to make them once.)

 

As for the resources for traps, mining and wrenching gives everything you need for dart traps/blade traps/electric fences.

[Maverick]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

The game has a mode specifically for players wanting freedom and it is turned on with the "cm" command. Just give yourself a filter, a low level iron pickaxe and 20 magazines of your choice and the rest will likely work out because you can buy everything including better tools and magazines at the trader, just like before. You just need to have a source of income.

 

As a disclaimer: I haven't tried this out, so feel free to correct me if there is a problem with this method.

 

The fact that I can fix a screw up (by modding it out myself or using cm) doesn't make it less of a screw up

Edited June 14, 2023 by Maverick (see edit history)

[meganoth]

29 minutes ago, Maverick said:

The fact that I can fix a screw up (by modding it out myself or using cm) doesn't make it less of a screw up

 

But from TFP's standpoint it isn't a screw up at all.

I may be speaking out of my league here, but the game was always designed and balanced by TFP for 1-8 people playing the whole game. "Fringe" styles like playing completely without trader, playing completely without looting POI's, playing nomad, playing with blood moon every night, playing pacifist, playing without leaving a tier5 building, playing completely underground and whatever else you can think of are not balanced and tested for viability at all. TFP has not the manpower to do this and even if they had they can't develop the game for the normal players in the way they want to if they have to accomodate all these other play styles. So those other play styles worked in earlier alphas because of many missing mechanisms that made the game more like a sandbox and incidentally often by chance.

 

If you want to play a fringe play style, then you have to make sure yourself (or in combo with like minded players) that it is somewhat balanced for you again, or you have to accept that it may be getting harder or weirder any time. Because by chance any change to vanilla that makes totally sense for normal players can be bad for your play style.

 

But the game gives you so many tools to correct problems thrown in the way of your play style. I think you are better off trying to find ways to get your type of game back by way of cm, options or mods than trying to get TFP to change back something that made a lot of "normal" players happy.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)