Glass Jars Question, A21

[Kartan]

3 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

Some background for you in case it is news, as this was a hot topic of discussion in the A21 release about a year ago...

 

None of the other consumables has a container. Gasoline, for instance, the gas can icon just represents the liquid, not a container. So, water is just depicted as a glass jar but they're not really trying to have a container that gets filled. Thus, while the "empty glass jar" was what we had, the issue of carrying around water doesn't really depend on having empty jars.

 

Instead, I focus on the ability to carry water away from a water source. If the game is just going to assume containers are always available for things like gasoline, then to me the assumption is also true for water. Thus, I think the best outcome is that when you're at a lake, you should be able to drink (currently possible) or carry away some water which would look like a jar of water.

 

However, TFP wants some early game survival challenges and struggling for potable water is part of that. I can embrace the goal. I love the goal, actually. I just don't share much enthusiasm over the implementation. They would have you go into POIs and find water as loot, and that is currently a viable method of play. Once you find a cooking pot, this quickly evolves into purifying the water you find. Once you get a little knowledge about workstations (2 magazines) you unlock a Dew Collector which produces water. Over time, you'll likely develop a number of Dew Collectors (and improve the features of your existing Dew Collectors) and eliminate water scarcity from your challenges.

 

It isn't a bad minigame once you know how to play it. Its just that they way they deal with water sources (pools, lakes, rivers) and the initial sources of water (POIs) isn't realistic enough to align with a player's real-world experiences, so it is confusing.

Yeah, I can see the “nothing else is a container so why should water be one” argument except for the fact that it’s…. Water? I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems. The fact they want me to run away from the lake to a random house to loot for dirty water to purify just doesn’t make any sense at all.

[meganoth]

42 minutes ago, Kartan said:

mean your first 2 examples are totally irrelevant lol, games that start you with a pistol and you can’t take other enemies weapons? They have to maintain a level of challenge somehow there’s 1 goal in those fps games shoot the enemy.

 

TFP wants to make water a small struggle <-> The shooter wants to make ammo and weapons a struggle.

 

Very comparable, though in TFP it is on a smaller scale while ammo and guns is central to the shooter. Still I don't see why they are not comparable.

 

Both this and the second example show that players accept unrealistic limitations because there are reasons for it or because they don't even notice them. The reasons may be big or small, the players may not even really accept the reasons, but most of them don't even think about those limits when they play the game. They would only notice if the game changes those limits, either removing them or setting them up. Other missing containers in 7D2D show that if it isn't changed under your feet you don't even notice that they are missing.

 

So this is a result of being part of Early Access. If the game had water like this from the start nobody would have complained.

 

42 minutes ago, Kartan said:

I saw madmole in another thread talking about jars and water being leftover engine work previously from when it was more “Minecraft” like. What are they doing with the game then? What’s their final visions? I was always under the impression that this game was just that: Minecraft with zombies. That’s what it played like that’s what I introduced it to my friends as and they agreed. That’s not a bad thing? It’s unique and fun im not sure what their final vision of the game is. It seems playing this new version from the old Xbox one that it’s taken more of an FPS/Action genre, are they trying to make it more like dead island/ left for dead?? If so what a terrible idea. Minecraft zombies is what makes it unique and that’s what me and my friends will always appreciate it for. 

 

Their vision seems to be to create a new game in many respects and not simply copy stuff from other games. At least thats what I get from their experiments with all sorts of features where they always tried to find new ways instead of giving the player stuff they found in all the other games. If you only wanted Minecraft with Zombies, that is a rather meek goal wouldn't you say?. That could be done by a minecraft mod much better.

 

If you want the hundredth copy of some existing games like dead island, look around. Steam publishes dozen of uninspired copies of successful games each month

 

21 minutes ago, Kartan said:

Yeah, I can see the “nothing else is a container so why should water be one” argument except for the fact that it’s…. Water? I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems. The fact they want me to run away from the lake to a random house to loot for dirty water to purify just doesn’t make any sense at all.

 

This is part of learning the game. To find out how it works, how to improve your chances to survive. I can tell you that no veteran player has a problem getting water and dew collector on day 1. Do you want to find out yourself or do you want us to tell you how it works?

 

Edited July 26 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Treb]

1 hour ago, Kartan said:

Yeah, I can see the “nothing else is a container so why should water be one” argument except for the fact that it’s…. Water? I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems. The fact they want me to run away from the lake to a random house to loot for dirty water to purify just doesn’t make any sense at all.

 

Have you visited the trader? I would be very surprised if you didn't find a single forge ahead magazine in their workstations.

[ElCabong]

Water is more valuable now and that's a good thing. I can be a little short the first two days but after I get my dew collector, it's not a problem. After it is fully modded and with what you loot, you have in excess of water to make all the food and drink you need. There's always enough left over to make glue

[Kartan]

1 hour ago, Treb said:

 

Have you visited the trader? I would be very surprised if you didn't find a single forge ahead magazine in their workstations.

Yeah I found there’s a broken down forge at the first guy trader rekt and it seems to spawn there. I started a  solo game and I found the forge my first trip to the trader so I went and got it with my buddy in multiplayer

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

TFP wants to make water a small struggle <-> The shooter wants to make ammo and weapons a struggle.

 

Very comparable, though in TFP it is on a smaller scale while ammo and guns is central to the shooter. Still I don't see why they are not comparable.

 

Both this and the second example show that players accept unrealistic limitations because there are reasons for it or because they don't even notice them. The reasons may be big or small, the players may not even really accept the reasons, but most of them don't even think about those limits when they play the game. They would only notice if the game changes those limits, either removing them or setting them up. Other missing containers in 7D2D show that if it isn't changed under your feet you don't even notice that they are missing.

 

So this is a result of being part of Early Access. If the game had water like this from the start nobody would have complained.

 

 

Their vision seems to be to create a new game in many respects and not simply copy stuff from other games. At least thats what I get from their experiments with all sorts of features where they always tried to find new ways instead of giving the player stuff they found in all the other games. If you only wanted Minecraft with Zombies, that is a rather meek goal wouldn't you say?. That could be done by a minecraft mod much better.

 

If you want the hundredth copy of some existing games like dead island, look around. Steam publishes dozen of uninspired copies of successful games each month

 

 

This is part of learning the game. To find out how it works, how to improve your chances to survive. I can tell you that no veteran player has a problem getting water and dew collector on day 1. Do you want to find out yourself or do you want us to tell you how it works?

 

They haven’t made a new game whatsoever? The game is literally Minecraft with zombies no matter how you want to look at it lol. As for the other games I still don’t get how you can compare not being able to enter certain buildings to changing a whole water system in a game? They had water containers and jars and now they don’t. For a survival game to take that away and force you to make dew collectors and make rivers/ponds obsolete is ridiculous.

[rateds2k]

3 hours ago, Kartan said:

 Water? I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems. The fact they want me to run away from the lake to a random house to loot for dirty water to purify just doesn’t make any sense at all.

That is normally a day one problem, I have had two playthroughs on 1.0 and had two dew collectors up and running both the 1st night. You can also drink directly from water

[Kartan]

47 minutes ago, rateds2k said:

That is normally a day one problem, I have had two playthroughs on 1.0 and had two dew collectors up and running both the 1st night. You can also drink directly from water

Yeah I missed the magazine at the traders’ forge, still ridiculous I have to find a magazine at this dudes forge to be able to learn how to make dew collectors to then wait on dirty water as opposed to utilizing the bodies of water on the map. I mean what is this? Dune spice wars??

[Riamus]

So this old thread was resurrected again?  Fun.

 

Not everything has to make logical sense in a game.  There are design choices that are made for gameplay reasons that trump realism.  You can still drink water from a water source.  You just can't carry it around.  Water was far too easy to get with jars.  I would have 100s in the first couple of days just from looting.  You could then fill those in a few seconds and never need water again for a very long time.  Nothing good about that, regardless of any realism.  I wasn't really a fan of the dew collector choice when it first came out, but they've improved it in 1.0.  You no longer need to buy a part to craft it and you have the option to buy and install 3 mods to make it much better.  The current version of dew collectors works really well, imo.  Could there be other options?  Sure.  Could some be better?  Probably.  But this is what we have, so rather than beating a dead horse over what has been in the game for a year already, just learn the new system and enjoy the game.  Being upset over it will just make the game less fun.  Even if you don't like it, accepting that it is how it is will make the game more enjoyable for you.  Just my two cents.

57 minutes ago, Kartan said:

Yeah I missed the magazine at the traders’ forge, still ridiculous I have to find a magazine at this dudes forge to be able to learn how to make dew collectors to then wait on dirty water as opposed to utilizing the bodies of water on the map. I mean what is this? Dune spice wars??

Every broken workstation in the game (except dew collectors) has a good chance of giving you forge ahead magazines.  See a construction area?  Look for a cement mixer.  Look through garages and you'll likely find some workbenches.  These are some of the easiest ways to find forge ahead magazines.  But every trader has one of each broken workstation (except dew collectors), so you're almost guaranteed to get at least one forge ahead magazine from any trader, and potentially up to 4.

[zztong]

7 hours ago, Kartan said:

I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems.

 

Yes, I agree it is not a natural way of thinking, thus confusing. As I said, the current water play isn't my favorite, but if you know what you're doing in the TFP version of reality it is quite playable.

 

Look for Destroyed Workbenches, Destroyed Forges, Destroyed Dew Collectors, Destroyed Cement Mixers, and Destroyed Chemistry Stations. You're likely to find 3-4 of those at a Trader out in their yard. Construction sites are good. Laboratories, for instance. Sometimes a garage. You only need 2 of those books to unlock the Dew Collector.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Kartan said:

The game is literally Minecraft with zombies no matter how you want to look at it lol.

 

I have played minecraft for an evening before losing interest. Does that mean that a few zombies are the only reason I played 7d2d for >2k hours? 😉

 

And does that mean that minecraft is an "open-world game that is a unique combination of first-person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games. The definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG"? Are there RPG elements in minecraft, is it first-person shooter, with tower defense? 😉

 

Seriously, what do you expect when you ask about the vision of the developers? That they have to create a totally new genre with their game? 7days has a lot of unique elements, like the horde defense on every 7th day, a perk system you have never seen anywhere else, a weapon and armor system I have not seen anywhere else, lots of genres combined in one game,.... If you zoom out so far that 7d2d is just minecraft with different skins, then Skyrim is literally Borderlands with dragons

 

 

5 hours ago, Kartan said:

As for the other games I still don’t get how you can compare not being able to enter certain buildings to changing a whole water system in a game?

 

It is called an analogy. If you gloss over the details that may be different certain concepts are identical. In the mentioned cases the player is unrealistically hindered at doing something (entering a building, looting guns and ammo, getting water from a lake) for external reasons (costs, introducing difficulty, introducing difficulty). Ok, the gun analogy is better because the reasons are also similar.

 

[Verdigriss]

4 hours ago, zztong said:

 

Yes, I agree it is not a natural way of thinking, thus confusing. As I said, the current water play isn't my favorite, but if you know what you're doing in the TFP version of reality it is quite playable.

 

Look for Destroyed Workbenches, Destroyed Forges, Destroyed Dew Collectors, Destroyed Cement Mixers, and Destroyed Chemistry Stations. You're likely to find 3-4 of those at a Trader out in their yard. Construction sites are good. Laboratories, for instance. Sometimes a garage. You only need 2 of those books to unlock the Dew Collector.

Oh, of coooourse, silly me, I was trying to get water by living near water, I should have known that in a survival game, to get water, you find a *magazine* in a *broken cement mixer*, and reading said magazine allows you to build a *dew collector*

Do you all really not realize how insane this sounds?

[Kartan]

On 4/21/2023 at 12:24 PM, Vintorez said:

I'm not convinced it's going to be received well even after players actually try it, having the jars just disappear and not be able to be used to fill up is the kind of thing that will just pull players out of the experience. Every time they go to drink it's just going to be like "Oh here's that thing the developers are making me do" rather than just being immersed in the survival aspect. In real life I can fill a jar or cup or whatever and boil it to make it drinkable, having the game literally bend reality to make that impossible won't feel good even if it functionally still works. 

 

IMO there are more simple, believable ways to achieve the dev's goals;

 

Make a glassblowing pipe required to craft jars and make it as rare/expensive as desired, like on par with a crucible. Now a forge + sand no longer equals infinite jars by day 3. Making the jars take longer to craft also would make bulk crafting take more commitment.

 

Have Tin Cans of water not stack anymore. Can't seal them, can't transport them efficiently. Logical and makes a player have to decide between inventory space or having water for travel without hindering them when rehydrating at base. Gives some player choice in how they want to manage their hydration in the early game.

 

Make most looted water be in tin cans (for murky) or in cracked jars (for pure) with cracked jars being lost when used, hydrating slightly less, and with a chance to cause a bit of damage. Intact jars could be somewhat rare loot that would be quite valuable for players who have yet to acquire a glassblowing pipe, slowly weaning off the need for inefficient cans of water.

 

I'm willing to give the new system a fair shake but I can't imagine it not feeling jarring (ha) whenever I need to manage my thirst meter and have to do so in these new somewhat roundabout ways.

Yeah exactly, instead of being immersed in this “survival” game im forced to use this whacked out mechanic the devs want to implement as if we’re on mars or something? They say it’s because water was too abundant early game, as if there aren’t a bunch of other ways to fix that and not be completely immersion breaking and ridiculous.

17 minutes ago, Verdigriss said:

Oh, of coooourse, silly me, I was trying to get water by living near water, I should have known that in a survival game, to get water, you find a *magazine* in a *broken cement mixer*, and reading said magazine allows you to build a *dew collector*

Do you all really not realize how insane this sounds?

Right lmao? It’s a survival game and they want me to run away from the lake into a house to loot for dirty water that I can purify. You don’t have to play many games to see that’s absolutely ridiculous 😂

[Javabean867]

13 minutes ago, Verdigriss said:

Oh, of coooourse, silly me, I was trying to get water by living near water, I should have known that in a survival game, to get water, you find a *magazine* in a *broken cement mixer*, and reading said magazine allows you to build a *dew collector*

Do you all really not realize how insane this sounds?

You have all the water you can slurp up from the lake/stream/ditchpool.  What are you talking about?

Building dew collectors is the first thing you learn from reading the workbench magazines.  Those are found all over the world.  How could you be on day 6 without reading even 1 of those books?  Then you learn how to make a forge, workbench, etc.  It is easy, simple step that you are actively playing against.  Do you realize how crazy you sound?  "what do you mean i need a lockpick to open a locked safe???????????" or "grass should just teleport itself into my backpack" or "what do you mean i need to hold a button down to move????"  please, you spend more time being upset over glass jars not being in the game, then clicking 2 buttons.  1 to search, and 1 to read and then you can make dew collectors and your water needs will start to be handled.

 

[Kartan]

On 4/21/2023 at 4:26 PM, Roland said:

 

The initial WTF moment is something that I worry about. When played for the first time after the change was made I had no idea that it had happened. I was confused and a bit lost on how I was supposed to get enough water. At that time you could not drink from a water source yet either. So I asked someone what happened and found out about the change. I went back to the game and started working towards building my dew collector and after about an hour of playing never thought about jars again.

 

It will be a WTF first moment-- especially for those who don't follow the development announcements and so still have no idea about the change. There will be lots of posts from frustrated people asking how the heck they are supposed to get enough water. But I do have absolute confidence that within an hour of playing once understanding the change, people really won't think about it. The jars still exist but only in inventory to show units of liquid. Our imaginations fill in the rest. I assume there are empty jars but I just don't directly deal with them. They are glossed over. Never do I stop to agonize about a universe in which empty jars don't exist.

 

So...I think it will be a very interesting first couple of weeks on the forum with lots of posts by people who got used to it and absolutely love the water survival progression over the nonexistent water survival progression of before. There will also likely be every day someone new posting asking how to keep from always being thirsty and how to get water. There will be posts from those who didn't get past the adaptation process and decided right away they hate it and refuse to play it or try to get used to it. Some will call it innovative and unique and a fresh feeling compared to other survival titles they've played. Some will call it tedious and grindy and too long of a process to reach water abundance. Some will mod it back to how it was before ASAP.

 

This stuff is what makes early access so interesting to experience-- especially with a studio that experiments and iterates using public builds rather than behind closed doors. I'm pretty confident that in the end the vast majority will accept the change simply because the early game is more fun with it and just like everything else, crafting the solution to a problem is rewarding and we've already seen that people can and will bridge that abstraction gap with acid containers, gas cans, and stew bowls

I mean they could have gone the other way and ADDED containers for everything to make things even more immersive and allow us to Interact with more things instead of stripping it down to just barebone systems? And again they say it’s to combat water being too abundant early game as if there aren’t many better ways to do so?

[Kartan]

On 4/22/2023 at 10:49 PM, meganoth said:

 

There are laptops you can't turn on at all (even though you have electricity). There are refrigerators you can't use. There are busses on the road but you will never be able to use or repair one for no reason at all. There are lakes but you can't even make a simple raft float on it. Do you question all that every time you play? I would assume you actually questioned all those limitations at least once. But then forgot about them completely for hundreds of hours of playtime and had no problem at all with accepting that for example there are just 5 vehicles you can build. That you can't have two people ride a minibike. That you can't just take a picture from a wall and move it to your base. That you can't trip a zombie.

 

There are so many limitations in this game and you will question them from time to time or make a joke about it. And a minute later have forgotten about them and simply accept them for the next hundred hours of playtime.

 

Another example: You may say (in talk with your friends for example) you filled up your minibike with gas **cans**, not with gas. But lets look at it more closely. To fill a minibike you need (??) 50 or 100 or 500 units of what the game shows as gas cans. It obviously can't be 500 gas cans you fill that single minibike with. Does that constantly throw you out of immersion? Surely not, in actual gameplay you simply think of **units** of gas you fill up the bike with. You don't **think** of there being gas cans, you only think of (units of) gas. 

 

 

 

You will never again notice jars as an existing entity, let alone Schrödinger Jars that disappear. You will simply think of water, just like you only think of gas or acid that you need to operate a vehicle or build a battery.

 

 

I am not talking about circumvention by experienced players looking for loopholes. I am talking about everyone simply having no water scarcity at all without any effort.

 

Maybe you did not specify your ideas in detail. Maybe in your mind you did all the other changes so that one of your ideas could really work to limit water sensibly. Maybe not. Just as listed by you the changes you listed in your first idea for example won't work, not without some other changes, maybe not at all. 

 

If you want we can make a simple test. Just take your first idea and list all the changes you would do to make it work for A20. If what you would have changed is all listed in that paragraph of yours above, say so. Otherwise add whatever else needs to be changed.

 

Then if I find something so water is not limited at all, or limited to unplayability, or anything else that does not align with what we know the devs want, I win the argument. If not, you win it.

 

 

Whether it will be fun for you that water is made scarce is quite a different matter. Net positive? No idea, that depends on the tastes of the majority of players this game has.

 

Everything you’ve mentioned has never once been possible in the game lmao. I’ve played this for years (on Xbox) with simple water mechanics like pretty much every survival game. Get dirty water- clean dirty water. Now they have removed this feature because they think water is too scarce? They want to be different and unique so bad they can’t share simple water mechanics with other games? Or a simple small water skin that takes a bunch of leather and leaks over time? Or one of the other dozens of suggestions made that make sense?

[Kosmic Kerman]

Stop crying. It’s changed. Accept it, mod it, or don’t play.

[Kartan]

On 4/21/2023 at 5:45 PM, Jugginator said:

 

These two points were talked about/tried before the change. Back in the days of A16 and earlier, this could be done; but this just isn't feasible with the mass amount of POIs/cities/towns we have now. Unless a massive overhaul of removing jarred drinks/empty jar sources (e.g. only X amount of "that makes sense to have drink/jar loot in there" allowed per POI) and reworking the loot tables happens, it just won't prevent anyone from having hundreds of jars, which defeats any sort of survival. Even IF that was done, a 5% or lower chance is still a lot, when considering how many times you can roll to get that loot. It's feasible this way. 

Alright well there are many other ways to combat water being abundant in the start? You’re talking about jars in their old form lol they could’ve easily been turned into something else… a very expensive water skin that leaks over time doesn’t hold a lot, delicate jars that break, expensive canteen you need to craft/loot/buy? Getting water and purifying it is an essential part of any survival game and they want to be so unique and different here they have to change up the system completely to where I now have to loot houses for dirty water instead of utilizing the ponds and rivers around me. No matter how you put it, that’s ridiculous. Sure it slows water prevention at the start but so many other non immersion breaking ways could’ve achieved the same. Seems like the easy lazy way out

[Kartan]

On 6/19/2023 at 7:55 PM, Riamus said:

You still collect water and boil it.  It just isn't collected at a water source like a lake or river.  It isn't meant to be realistic but to help water be more of a challenge rather than having all you'll ever need on day 1.  Considering you can drink right from the water source now, hydration isn't really changed.  It just isn't boiled if you drink it directly.  Water for drinking and cooking is not really a problem past the first day or two.  The only reason there is any issue is for people who use a lot of duct tape.

 

As far as the containers, I'm glad they are gone.  They were pointless, imo.  Even if you wanted the old method, there wasn't any need for having empty jars.  It could have easily been done without them.

Right, instead of getting water from the water I get water in single units from toilets and buildings. And if it’s meant to be more of a challenge they could’ve done a bunch of other things instead of stripping down the water system to a lazy barebones “unit” based system. Expensive 50-100 leather and a couple skills for a small waterksin? Expensive canteen you can craft/loot? How am I going to get an abundance of those on day 1? Just to name a couple options… so instead of being happy to find a stream, planning to live close to a water source, taking trips to get water and getting excited to find a better container, I have to farm dew collectors i run to and collect from as if that’s sooo intuitive and fun lol. I can have 6 dew collectors next to a swimming pool and have to run to each one and collect individually and the pool is totally useless. Soo groundbreaking and fun 😂

On 6/20/2023 at 12:44 AM, Roland said:

 

Not necessarily. There is a wide spectrum of hydration survival and how it is represented across many different survival games. There are even survival games where thirst isn't differentiated from food at all. 7 Days to Die has no obligation to be just like any or even every survival game out there. The developers of some games just ignore water survival altogether. Other developers of other games put tons of detail into water survival to the point that it is basically a sim for hydrating the body. 7 Days to Die has chosen to make some aspects of hydration an abstraction. 

 

You don't have to like it but please just know that "any survival game" is not some bible for how particular survival games must depict thirst and drinking. There is a lot of wiggle room based on all the different ways different games choose to do it.

The game is a survival game set in the USA and they want me farming dew collectors and looting toilets for water instead of somehow purifying the natural water found on the land? Sure the devs don’t NEED to make the game any certain way, but we live on the planet the game takes place in. If they want some weird whacked out mechanics they should come up with some little planet this game takes place on so they can change how the world works. Because water is water. It’s meant to be purified, not harvested in whatever braindead manner the devs currently want us to 😂

[Kartan]

On 6/20/2023 at 12:44 PM, BFT2020 said:

 

I embraced it when it was announced during A21 development that I modded out glass jars (and tin cans) from A20 just to experience it before hand.  Haven't miss them since.

 

Why does logic only apply to glass jars but nobody had an issue with magical gas cans or oil bottles?  Where did all those plates and bowls go after we eat our food and where are they when we make them?

 

The thing is, you can make this game as complex or simple as you want through modding.  You can make it as realistically possible if you want to.

 

But if we are going to argue that something is not logical or realistic, then shouldn't it apply across the board?  How many people really want to plant corn seeds in Spring in game and then turn around and harvest it in the Fall? 

Could’ve implement any number of other suggested changes that make sense. Expensive containers, fragile ones, rare ones, anything. And yeah I agree there should be containers for everything, you should be able to pickup and interact with any item, but that would take a lot of work. Easier to strip away those things and give us barebone mechanics. The problem is water is water. No matter what they want it to be and if you’ve played any other survival game or watched any movie or tv shows that’s what people do. We purify dirty water. Devs are acting as if water in this game is some magic space dust we need to stay alive that can only be produced by certain methods lmao. No, unfortunately water is water so when my dudes thirsty I’m gonna look at the big BODY OF WATER and wonder why I can’t harvest and purify it. 

[RipClaw]

28 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Stop crying. It’s changed. Accept it, mod it, or don’t play.

No need to be rude. The OP is apparently a console gamer. That means this is the first time he's encountered it. And it also means he can't mod anything.

I think it's still a valid criticism. Not that we can do anything about it but we can still debate what alternatives there could have been.

[Kartan]

On 6/20/2023 at 8:14 PM, Riamus said:

Not oil but you collected gas from cars and gas barrels and gas pumps.  What did you put it into?  When you emptied all of these, where did the containers go?  People are really only complaining because it is harder to get enough water for mass producing glue.  I'd be willing to bet that at least 90% of the people upset over glass jars being gone are those who mass produce glue.  You also don't see these same people complaining about empty cans being gone.  Very good indication why they are complaining and it isn't due to realism.

 

Still, I'm glad you're finding enough water now.

Lmao you’re acting as if the glass jar itself is what people miss 😂🤣 it’s the CONTAINER we are upset about how do you not understand that? We need a container to carry water in its such a simple premise and you’re caught up on glass jars lmfao yeah sure get rid of the glass jars give us expensive water skins we can learn to make with lots of leather or rare/expensive canteens. And you’re probably going to say “the devs don’t have an obligation to make the game any certain way” yeah sure whatever but the devs need to understand that WATER is WATER and not whatever weird element they want it to be that’s only harvested through certain machines 😂 or go make a new planet with whatever weird elements you want us to extract in the air. But the game takes place in the USA and we are humans who need water. We should be able to transport said water away from its source. It’s pretty simple man lmfao nobody cares about the glass jars in particular 

On 6/21/2023 at 2:15 AM, Survior said:

 

It really  has very little to "meh glue" it has everything to do with dumbing down an already dumb system. The new system isn't harder it's just worse.

 

 

Right lmao, other games are improving their systems if anything. Adding MORE containers with MORE uses so you interact more with the items and world around you. Here we have some braindead take on “water” as if it’s some super rare resource we need to harvest from the air. Devs really cant accept that water is just water and other games have done it right for so many years now it’s so simple yet they want to be so unique and different lmao. 

On 6/21/2023 at 2:36 AM, Riamus said:

If that's true, where are the complaints about the missing empty cans?

 

I don't disagree necessarily with saying it's dumbing it down but that's not why people are really complaining or they'd complain about the cans as well.  And they'd have been complaining about the other items that don't have empties all along.

Because obviously that’s the first thing I’m trying to find/make to collect water?? Lmao

On 6/21/2023 at 4:34 AM, RipClaw said:

Empty cans were only needed in the recipe for oil. There is no model for an empty cans and one did not have this interaction where one would have filled the cans with oil from e.g. an oil tank.

 

Therefore, it is understandable that the empty jars are more prominent in the discussion. We had a refilling animation / drinking animation and when you threw an empty glass from the inventory there was really a jar on the floor and not a bag. In that sense, the jars were much more real.

 

In the Undead Legacy Mod, the concept of empty containers has been expanded. To collect gas from a gas pump or a gas barrel, you need an empty jerry can. And to pick up water at a tap, shower head or hydrant, you need an empty jar or a empty plastic bottle. In addition, in many cases the empty containers are returned when you craft something.

To balance this, empty containers can only be crafted in level 3 or 4 workstations which you will not get until very late in the game.

 

 

Wow crazy they couldn’t just implement some simple system like that instead of treating water like gold that I have to sift out the air. What a braindead take on such a simple system YEEESH

[Kartan]

On 6/22/2023 at 4:15 AM, Lokeus said:

 

I am on your side. I also understand why they wanted to stop the jar inflation but there are a lot of ways to do this without breaking the immersion so hard. A neat idea why water collectors are necessary: The catastrophe happened as a result of atomic accident. So water which you find anywhere could give the player radiation debuff so he is

hardly pushed to switch to natural falling down water. Also rainy days could have an impact on water collection... so much potential to raise immersion without disctract fans of the established water system so much. Also: They should have keep old water system (with radiation effect) and limit the stacks as they did now. Everything consumable made of radiated water could have the radiation effect.

Anybody there to make such a modlet? I would pay for it! 😀

Yeah they act as if water is some new rare resource we need to farm from the clouds such an awful take. Expensive water skins that leak over time, rare/expensive canteens. We are humans who carry water to disinfect it, it’s been like that forever. They’re trying to reinvent the wheel here and the only excuse I’ve seen is to “limit early game water abundance” yet they chose possibly the most immersion breaking crazy way to do so? Oh you want to get dirty water to clean? Yeah no we don’t go to lakes and rivers we loot houses and toilets lmao

On 1/21/2024 at 10:50 AM, Finster said:

I'm on team "the water situation is ridiculous". Okay, I get the desire for "scarcity". At the same time, the game "realism" is degraded even further as I cannot so much as take a sip from a lake nor put water in a bucket. Furthermore, it makes farming a pointless task. Cool, I guess let me make 1000 meat and potato meals because I don't have water to cook the other recipes.

 

The reason 7 Days to Die is my most played game in the steam library is the procedurally generated maps for infinite worlds, the fully destructible world and general survival gameplay. Friends and I just want to get on a game, get to building and killing zombies. When game elements lack sense or become burdensome due to developer whims, I play it less. My daughter used to play the game a lot and now doesn't find as much enjoyment. She's mostly on project zomboid now. Instead of limits, the game should be expanding crafting elements and capabilities.

 

I do like the new POIs and the remodeling of some of the classics from several years ago, e.g. the underground cave. I like the updates to the workbench, forges, and spinning cement mixers. But for the love of jeebus, don't make things artificially "difficult" by breaking elements and making gameplay nonsensical. 

They can’t just accept that water is water. They want it to be some artificial resource we sift through the sky to gather lmao I mean what a psychotic idea. They wanted to limit early game water abundance but instead of doing what other games do and expanding on mechanics, giving us more items to interact with and the world around us, they strip down already functioning mechanics and make some artificial bottleneck in the gameplay because they’re too naive and stubborn to accept how human beings ACTUALLY interact with water 

[Kartan]

1 hour ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Stop crying. It’s changed. Accept it, mod it, or don’t play.

Almost like forums are for conversations 😂 ur a joke lmao

[Riamus]

53 minutes ago, Kartan said:

it’s the CONTAINER we are upset about

Why is it people want to assume they know what other people mean or want?  *Maybe* everyone complaining about jars are upset about the exact same thing.  But from all the many posts about water (and there are many), you can see that there are a variety of different reasons that different people have for wanting (or not wanting) jars.  Better to just say that it's what you want rather than claiming that it's what everyone wants.

 

Here are just some of the more common reasons that some people are upset based on the many posts on the topic:

 

• It isn't realistic for jars to disappear.
• It isn't realistic that you can't carry water from a water source.
• There is too much grinding to get enough water for making all the glue that people need, especially on a large MP game.
• You need too many dew collectors to produce enough water.

 

So if a response to someone relates to one of these things (such as that all other empty containers aren't represented either -- point 1 above), then it is a valid response even if it doesn't answer your own personal reason for not liking it.  And remember that you're replying to a thread that is over a year old and things have changed since then.  Yes, still no jars (they aren't coming back, so no point being upset about it), but the dew collectors are improved quite a lot since they were added in A21.  It doesn't fix the realism, but this game isn't a simulator and gameplay will trump realism.  It does fix the third and fourth items - one dew collector with all mods installed per person is generally enough unless you're doing a lot of crafting and then maybe you'll want 2 or 3 per person.  So not much of a grind to loot a couple dew collectors.  Open and choose take all and move on.  Takes less than a second.

 

In the end, jars won't return.  You can adapt to the new situation, even if you don't like it, or you can use a mod to change it (if not on console).  You can spend a lot of time writing a lot of complaints about it, but it won't change anything and you could use that time for other things.

Edited July 27 by Riamus (see edit history)

[theFlu]

9 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Why is it people want to assume they know what other people mean or want? 

The post he was replying to contained for example "people are only complaining because..." "I bet 90% of the complainers...".

So, umm, take it up with that guy? That was you btw

 

You've seen me argue about this endlessly, from your list I 'care' about the second; the third is relevant _as the problem_: make the crafting not depend on duct tape > glue > water, at whichever step, and you can free up the lakes again. I fail to see why the crafting chain needs to depend and be strictly limited by h2o, in this fashion in the least.