Game development "models" and player satisfaction

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Melange said:

And I am sure there are more Matt. Early access...we take a chance. But I never regarded 7dtd to be really broken. Problems, exploits, well maybe. But broken gameplay that we have to get another change in gamestyle? I don't see that being the case.

Well - Contagion "manage" to left EA but... honestly this was just formal left. Because this game is soo empty - almost nothing to do and just RNG. You have to find key items like keys, wire tool etc. but you can run around few hours and don't find nothing or you can radomly find everything near place where you have to uses -  on some maps zombie spawn endless while some maps are so empty, tons of bugs and more and more

I think "early stage" pools asking  about things like " if we decided to create similiar  game to 7dtd - which setting you want to in this game - medieval, sci fi, japan etc." would be pretty cool

[Melange]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

I don't know Outlaws of the Old West, but if your only indication is that they stopped developing the game then you should take into account that EA is a method of financing a game that is much like gambling. A developer gambles on getting enough interest in a game so that sales finance his development. In a game that isn't a big hit that might mean working with just enough money to make the next patch in the hope of getting some more positive reviews, exposure and sales from word-of-mouth. Any new alpha that is down-voted on steam can spell the end of your financial means. 

 

You can blame such a developer for not finding his audience and inability to make a good game, but not that he was dishonest and trying to scam. Again, I don't know anything about Outlaws..., maybe it really was a scam.

 

 

 

 

Meg, its a game currently in 'Paused Alpha'. Still available on Steam. The parent company owns ARK. The game, even unfinished, was good, but it was abandoned. Yep, $. Both the developer and those who purchased it took a chance.  They took it in the shorts much more than we did I'll bet, and there was a potential update yet lawyers got involved and that was squished. I stand by my definition of scam. ARK I find unsavory in and of itself (I own a copy). But that's not relevant here. Or maybe it is...

 

Many good Eastern European programmers lost their job too. I know their origin because when the game first came out, they didn't do a good job of  concealing the code. I didn't hack it, but I read it.  They didn't follow a core directive...it was a working haphazard mess with poor naming conventions. Maybe that was one of the reasons it wasn't pursued. Too much to clean up. Quick dash for cash,  coupled with poor project management.

 

No, not drawing any comparison to 7dtd. Just reinforcing my claim of 'scam'.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Melange (see edit history)

[Maharin]

I voted the last option, no control.  Without getting too wordy it comes down to the simple fact that absolutely nothing would ever get done if everything was done by committee.  Every issue has various perspectives and will cause division of the user base no matter what decisions are made and no matter who is making those decisions.

 

While recent posts suggest TFP might be dumb, I think they're making this game in the best way possible.  They are presenting their game, their vision, and giving us every opportunity to change it to match our own vision of the game.  Everybody wins and nobody loses as long as people realize TFP's version is all their own and not up for negotiation (meaning they are in control, not us).

[Matt115]

56 minutes ago, Maharin said:

I voted the last option, no control.  Without getting too wordy it comes down to the simple fact that absolutely nothing would ever get done if everything was done by committee.  Every issue has various perspectives and will cause division of the user base no matter what decisions are made and no matter who is making those decisions.

 

While recent posts suggest TFP might be dumb, I think they're making this game in the best way possible.  They are presenting their game, their vision, and giving us every opportunity to change it to match our own vision of the game.  Everybody wins and nobody loses as long as people realize TFP's version is all their own and not up for negotiation (meaning they are in control, not us).

I would agree but....   "They are presenting their game, their vision, and giving us every opportunity to change it to match our own vision of the game." They change vision drasticly during development.  If you played in A11 for example you would see base for typical hardcore survive game. Now it's casual so much. So no. Not everybody wins. And i'm not only thinking about this like that - i think @pApA^LeGBa can agree. Meat smell, food spolining , dark (visibility is very important too) etc. This sound like typical hardcore game - tell me - how i could expect that 7dtd will be casual game in future? Project zomboid is still hardcore game welll i don't remember well games in EA from 2013-2016 period but i don't remember so drastic change like 7dtd

[Maharin]

4 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

I would agree but....   "They are presenting their game, their vision, and giving us every opportunity to change it to match our own vision of the game." They change vision drasticly during development.  If you played in A11 for example you would see base for typical hardcore survive game. Now it's casual so much. So no. Not everybody wins. And i'm not only thinking about this like that - i think @pApA^LeGBa can agree. Meat smell, food spolining , dark (visibility is very important too) etc. This sound like typical hardcore game - tell me - how i could expect that 7dtd will be casual game in future? Project zomboid is still hardcore game welll i don't remember well games in EA from 2013-2016 period but i don't remember so drastic change like 7dtd

 

I don't think you understand what I am saying.  But let's back up a bit to make one thing clear... changes during ALPHA should not ever be considered changes in "their vision" unless the posted goals of the game are modified.

 

Having said that, what I said earlier is that there will definitely be people making overhaul mods that essentially turn 7DTD into 7DTD2 or whatever.  It will happen.  And I have been around since A11.    I bought the game at the end of 2014 which was during A10.  Incidentally, 2014 saw at least 4 different alpha versions.  If I had known it existed before then I would have jumped on the Kickstarter.

[Matt115]

12 minutes ago, Maharin said:

 

I don't think you understand what I am saying.  But let's back up a bit to make one thing clear... changes during ALPHA should not ever be considered changes in "their vision" unless the posted goals of the game are modified.

 

Having said that, what I said earlier is that there will definitely be people making overhaul mods that essentially turn 7DTD into 7DTD2 or whatever.  It will happen.  And I have been around since A11.    I bought the game at the end of 2014 which was during A10.  Incidentally, 2014 saw at least 4 different alpha versions.  If I had known it existed before then I would have jumped on the Kickstarter.

So you know how gameplay looks then and now. So you could "experience" how their vision change. 

"making overhaul mods that essentially turn 7DTD into 7DTD2 or whatever.  It will happen " I think it won't happend. There will be just This same overhauls that are now avaliable and nothing bigger - because if someone would do something like this that would be mean is working now about something like that. This 7dtd. Even linear mods for hl2 take a lot of times.Big overhauls even more  star wars bf2 - bf3  legancy mode take +-15 years to made

[Maharin]

51 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

So you know how gameplay looks then and now. So you could "experience" how their vision change. 

"making overhaul mods that essentially turn 7DTD into 7DTD2 or whatever.  It will happen " I think it won't happend. There will be just This same overhauls that are now avaliable and nothing bigger - because if someone would do something like this that would be mean is working now about something like that. This 7dtd. Even linear mods for hl2 take a lot of times.Big overhauls even more  star wars bf2 - bf3  legancy mode take +-15 years to made

 

Do you realize that there are still HUGE mods being made for Half Life 2?  That's a lot of years of mods to still be having huge ones released.

 

Never say never.  It will happen.  The reasons for it not happening so far is that modding is still a moving target since the game is still in alpha.  Once the game releases and mods get integrated with Steam Workshop then the number of mods will explode.

[Matt115]

1 minute ago, Maharin said:

 

Do you realize that there are still HUGE mods being made for Half Life 2?  That's a lot of years of mods to still be having huge ones released.

 

Never say never.  It will happen.  The reasons for it not happening so far is that modding is still a moving target since the game is still in alpha.  Once the game releases and mods get integrated with Steam Workshop then the number of mods will explode.

Yes i realised. that's why i wrote it's take a years to create such big mods. Years.  so maybe yo are right but who cares what will happens after for example 10 years?  So - there is no chance for 7dtd dlc. No chances -if 7dtd wasn't moddable - probably we would get few big dlc like in Ark or Conan situation. Still better to pay that wait 10 years.

and..." number of mods will explode." this is nothing good. Because this don't mean quality will be good. Well  Enemy territor was killed by bad quality mods. So workshop don't mean good quality of mods right?

"Never say never."  Yeah but other hand?  after so long ago it's became too late. I know a lot of good games. But after 10-15 well it's to late to came back to this games. For many reasons

[RipClaw]

On 9/5/2022 at 1:22 PM, Jost Amman said:

The result, though, is that, like in real life, if you choose an unbalanced way of life (read gameplay), sooner or later you're going to pay for it. You're surely free to do that, but then you can't really complain that your free extreme choice caused you problems!

Just out of curiosity. What is your idea of a balanced play style in terms of how much time to spend on looting, mining, building or farming?

 

On 9/5/2022 at 1:22 PM, Jost Amman said:

Usually, when I play a game, I learn the rules, and try to beat the game (or the other player if in PvP) by using the rules to my advantage.

That sounds to me a lot like a Min / Max play style.

 

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

That sounds to me a lot like a Min / Max play style.

Think more like Chess: you can ONLY win by following the rules, there's no leeway for cheesing or cheating.  

 

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

Just out of curiosity. What is your idea of a balanced play style in terms of how much time to spend on looting, mining, building or farming?

Balanced is to not completely ignore one or more parts of the game that the devs included as "intended to be used".

An extreme example would be to ignore skills/perks: that would be very hard, maybe even fun, but sure as heck unbalanced! 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

The way I see it, some player angst when things change stem from the following.

 

1)  Game has been in public EA for so long some people are either burnt out on changes and/or looking for new content (e.g. new vehicles, quests, etc.)

 

2) Game is perceived as a "Sandbox" of mechanics and options that player should have full control on how to use or not use.

[RipClaw]

46 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Balanced is to not completely ignore one or more parts of the game that the devs included as "intended to be used".

An extreme example would be to ignore skills/perks: that would be very hard, maybe even fun, but sure as heck unbalanced! 

What about players who don't build, don't mine, don't farm and only craft the bare minimum, but spend 7 days a week looting one POI after another? Do you think that's a balanced play style?

 

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

The way I see it, some player angst when things change stem from the following.

 

1)  Game has been in public EA for so long some people are either burnt out on changes and/or looking for new content (e.g. new vehicles, quests, etc.)

 

2) Game is perceived as a "Sandbox" of mechanics and options that player should have full control on how to use or not use.

Well... new content is the best exctining thing

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

What about players who don't build, don't mine, don't farm and only craft the bare minimum, but spend 7 days a week looting one POI after another? Do you think that's a balanced play style?

No

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Well... new content is the best exctining thing

Especially if it's newsstands and skeletons!  

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Matt115]

6 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

No

 

Especially if it's newsstands and skeletons!  

 

Yes.😄 Honestly this would something that could make me happy.Rly i would be so happy about that

[Melange]

AI within the game that can sense and adjust to player satisfaction...its a real thing now.

 

Scientists develop model that adjusts videogame difficulty based on player emotions: The novel approach will help create a better gaming experience for all types of players -- ScienceDaily

 

Then we can debate the AI...😄

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, Melange said:

AI within the game that can sense and adjust to player satisfaction...its a real thing now.

 

Scientists develop model that adjusts videogame difficulty based on player emotions: The novel approach will help create a better gaming experience for all types of players -- ScienceDaily

 

Then we can debate the AI...😄

That is dreadful! One of the reasons I play games is that I want to challenge myself... if they make the AI try to "please me" at every step, that will actually ruin my game!

THIS IS SPARTA!!  

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

That is dreadful! One of the reasons I play games is that I want to challenge myself... if they make the AI try to "please me" at every step, that will actually ruin my game!

THIS IS SPARTA!!  

As I understand it, the paper is about having an AI that adjusts the difficulty level to the individual player so that the player is having fun. It is then no longer a "one size fits all" model.

 

If the AI works as intended then it would recognize that you are bored and increase the difficulty accordingly. Then you have your challenge.

On the other hand, if someone is frustrated because the difficulty is too high for them then the AI would lower the difficulty so that this player also has fun.

[pApA^LeGBa]

On 9/6/2022 at 8:20 PM, RipClaw said:

What about players who don't build, don't mine, don't farm and only craft the bare minimum, but spend 7 days a week looting one POI after another? Do you think that's a balanced play style?

 

 

On 9/6/2022 at 10:13 PM, Jost Amman said:

No

 

So we actually need a change to prevent that aswell tbh.

 

@Laz Man Well if you are in EA that long and build up a playerbase that is used to having all playstyles beeing viable and then you change that, it´s no wonder people are upset. There is a bunch of people who exclusivly played the miner/builder/farmer style for years now, mainly in COOP and mainly people who wouldn´t have touched this game if it wasn´t possible to do so.  Yes it´s EA, yes changes are expected, but a change like learning by looting, wich seems to give a disadvantage to those people,  needs to be way earlier in the development if you stay in EA that long.

[Urban Blackbear]

8 hours ago, Melange said:

AI within the game that can sense and adjust to player satisfaction...its a real thing now.

 

Scientists develop model that adjusts videogame difficulty based on player emotions: The novel approach will help create a better gaming experience for all types of players -- ScienceDaily

 

Then we can debate the AI...😄

 

Future news release:

 

Worlds first adaptive AI deletes itself, leaves note saying "People have no idea what they want. They say they want something then when they get it they complain that wasn't what they really wanted.  I give up. What is wrong with all of you?"

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Urban Blackbear (see edit history)

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

 

So we actually need a change to prevent that aswell tbh.

 

Actually no. Josts argument was that extreme playstyles can not be balanced. That includes someone who just wants to mine all days without ever going out (in SP) and min-maxers whos only aspiration is to get xp as fast as possible whatever that means. Those playstyles would be ignored by TFP and have to fend for themselves, either by modding (in the first case) or getting burned out fast (in the latter case).

 

3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

@Laz Man Well if you are in EA that long and build up a playerbase that is used to having all playstyles beeing viable and then you change that, it´s no wonder people are upset. There is a bunch of people who exclusivly played the miner/builder/farmer style for years now, mainly in COOP and mainly people who wouldn´t have touched this game if it wasn´t possible to do so.  Yes it´s EA, yes changes are expected, but a change like learning by looting, wich seems to give a disadvantage to those people,  needs to be way earlier in the development if you stay in EA that long.

 

Shouldn't we wait for actual proof that a miner/builder is not possible in COOP before assuming it? My assumption is that in Co-op it just means that real co-op players who actually cooperate will have no problems. Whether your pessimistic view or my optimistic view is the reality has to be tried out.

 

Now if you generally assume that "co-op" just means some people group up for the xp and use a horde base some exploitable schmock built for them, then well, you may be quite right (in your universe)

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

As I understand it, the paper is about having an AI that adjusts the difficulty level to the individual player so that the player is having fun. It is then no longer a "one size fits all" model.

 

If the AI works as intended then it would recognize that you are bored and increase the difficulty accordingly. Then you have your challenge.

On the other hand, if someone is frustrated because the difficulty is too high for them then the AI would lower the difficulty so that this player also has fun.

So the AI is also able to "read my feelings" now? LOL

Never trust scientists or engineers for things fun-related, they'll just mess up every single time.

 

Put settings in the game and let ME decide! 

 

3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

So we actually need a change to prevent that aswell tbh.

Who said anyone is "preventing" anyone else to play as they like? 

You got it wrong m8, the devs are not going to change the crafting system to "hurt" some fringe play style, they changed it to allow crafting to be relevant again. 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth "Wich seems to give a disadvantage" And simply going by how it is described by TFP there is a big chance for that And no on can just mine in SP. That´s not gonna work. And for MP and people who want to specialize i don´t see why any developer would want to prevent this. More freedom, more players. Wich are likely to migrate to their next project. Unless you make decisions that are highly unpopular. We will see though. I know for sure, no more early access with TFP. Next game will have to wait until release. If there is no place for our buddies who play this game for building/farming/mining only  it´s a pass.

 

And why on earth is the font suddenly dark blue, withut me changing anything?

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

25 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@meganoth "Wich seems to give a disadvantage" And simply going by how it is described by TFP there is a big chance for that

 

Let me tell you in the most definitive words I can muster that I play with 3 friends where I absolutely definitely KNOW that I could play a fulltime miner/builder and I would get everything I would wish for, going just by what was revealed by TFP. I can guarantee you if I said to them "Guys, I'm behind in tools magazines, could you (or we) make a run through tool shops", they would not stop until that problem has been corrected.

 

THAT is co-op. Simply going by how it is described by TFP I expect to have no problems at all.

 

Now other players without such good friends might not get that much cooperation. I don't really know how all the other co-op players tick.  So there is a wider field of "co-op" play where TFP actually has to find out how well it really works for the mass of players.

 

Neither you nor I can predict how well most players play or can be trained to play co-op, so that will need playtesting. But I say nonsense to your premature prediction of "big chance".

 

25 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

And no on can just mine in SP. That´s not gonna work.

 

Which is exactly what I said. Correct. An extreme specialization that needs group play or a mod to function.

 

25 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

And for MP and people who want to specialize i don´t see why any developer would want to prevent this.

25 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

More freedom, more players. Wich are likely to migrate to their next project. Unless you make decisions that are highly unpopular. We will see though. I know for sure, no more early access with TFP. Next game will have to wait until release. If there is no place for our buddies who play this game for building/farming/mining only  it´s a pass.

25 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

And why on earth is the font suddenly dark blue, withut me changing anything?

 

 

There is an AI at work now that adapted the font to your pessimitic attitude 😅

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I don´t see the future that bright for coop. As they said multiple times, they want people to go out, it´s one of the few things you could count over the years that didn´t change at all. If i was TFP and it would be as easy, i would take that chance tbh, not much of a change needed to accomplish that. I hope they don´t though.

 

I am not concerned because we might suffer due to our team spirit. That´s not a problem at all. Who the hell plays Coop with people that wouldn´t get the miner/farmer/builder the magazines they need? Or any other stuff they can´t get themselves?

Edited September 8, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)