Are there any plans on making stealth actually stealth?

[Callum123456789]

eh i dont use stealth anymore i think the best stealth we ever had was in a16 or a18 im not stating that it was balanced as it was by far not but now i think its more hassle than its actually worth with all the trigger points and what not i only use stealth to go out xp hunting with bows thats about it

[pApA^LeGBa]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Triggers that make zombies wake up will never go away. It is a big part of the game. The guys who design the pois want triggers that wake up zombies. 

 

Then they should make sure that we can´t tear down a wall 2 blocks away from them without them waking up, while they do wake up when i sneak over a invisible line 15 blocks away from them on the intended path of the POI.

 

Those two situations shouldn´t be possible with the same sleeper. That´s simply just bad.

Edited May 16, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Roland]

3 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

Then they should make sure that we can´t tear down a wall 2 blocks away from them without them waking up

 

Agreed. They should.

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

There are some roof tops that the zombies wake up every single time during the day when you step foot on the rooftop but stay asleep if you do it at night. I think that this is pretty good evidence that #4 is true.

 

Yep. And once I got into the code it was clear that it is only light level (that is, light falling on the player) vs. the zombie's detection range (line-of-sight be damned) that determined whether sleepers wake up (with auto-targeting depending on crouching/not-crouching, and player's skill if crouched). Noise plays no role. Once they're awake, of course, noise plays a role. The stealth logger shows the light level and detection and all of that, for anyone interested.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[Tohskrad]

9 hours ago, Callum123456789 said:

eh i dont use stealth anymore i think the best stealth we ever had was in a16 or a18 im not stating that it was balanced as it was by far not but now i think its more hassle than its actually worth with all the trigger points and what not i only use stealth to go out xp hunting with bows thats about it

I agree, I played a bit of stealth in A18 and quite a bit in A19 and had a lot of fun sneaking around, despite the slower poi progress and lighter armor types.    In A20 it just doesn't feel worth the hassle and risk (once you get past lvl 15 or so with semi decent gear/weapons) due to all the forced triggers. This change required a complete overhaul of playstyle in my case.   IMO now (for me) A20 more safely plays like a hack/slash or run/gun while intentionally trying to make as much noise as possible vs. slow & stealthy in previous versions.  There are still some spots where a stealth kill is possible, but they are more few and far between.

 

Hopefully there is more of a happy medium where some stealth is actually recommended, maybe in some new T4/T5s... but for now I'll likely just keep brute forcing all the POIs and smashing/alerting everything in the way.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Tohskrad (see edit history)

[Deceptive Pastry]

Enemies should only alert/wake from noise or vision. That's it. Or smell, if that were still a mechanic. You should alert enemies because YOU messed up, not a dice roll, not some magic unavoidable trigger. You stepped on garbage, you broke an object, you got too close, you got in their line of sight. That is how stealth should work and how it works in just about any other game with good stealth mechanics.

The unavoidable triggers and RNG "stealth checks" are ridiculous. I would consider it fine if they were rare, but they really aren't, and stealthing rooms feels too out of the player's control too often. If you want a perk to improve stealth, it should only be to reduce the distance the sounds you make travel and reduce vision of enemies. Not give you better odds rolling dice when you walk over invisible thresholds. Because that should not even be happening. Hell, at the very least tie the wake-ups to loot boxes being broken open, like in loot rooms, so it's at least somewhat believable. I've had enough of zombies falling out of drop ceilings (???) and skylights for no reason.

If devs are so set on some rooms being unstealthable, at least tone down the frequency. I don't find stealthing to be very rewarding this version for the extra time it takes.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Deceptive Pastry (see edit history)

[No_Name_Idea]

It seems we're entering the CoD Zombies era of 7d2d

 

5 hours ago, Deceptive Pastry said:

Enemies should only alert/wake from noise or vision. That's it. Or smell, if that were still a mechanic. You should alert enemies because YOU messed up, not a dice roll, not some magic unavoidable trigger. You stepped on garbage, you broke an object, you got too close, you got in their line of sight. That is how stealth should work and how it works in just about any other game with good stealth mechanics.

The unavoidable triggers and RNG "stealth checks" are ridiculous. I would consider it fine if they were rare, but they really aren't, and stealthing rooms feels too out of the player's control too often. If you want a perk to improve stealth, it should only be to reduce the distance the sounds you make travel and reduce vision of enemies. Not give you better odds rolling dice when you walk over invisible thresholds. Because that should not even be happening. Hell, at the very least tie the wake-ups to loot boxes being broken open, like in loot rooms, so it's at least somewhat believable. I've had enough of zombies falling out of drop ceilings (???) and skylights for no reason.

If devs are so set on some rooms being unstealthable, at least tone down the frequency. I don't find stealthing to be very rewarding this version for the extra time it takes.

I agree with this 100%, another "recently" changed thing that makes the game more annoying. Also, I have no idea how they even managed to come to a conclusion that they should ignore noise level in the dice rolls.

Edited May 17, 2022 by No_Name_Idea (see edit history)

[Boidster]

11 hours ago, Deceptive Pastry said:

The unavoidable triggers and RNG "stealth checks" are ridiculous. I would consider it fine if they were rare, but they really aren't, and stealthing rooms feels too out of the player's control too often. If you want a perk to improve stealth, it should only be to reduce the distance the sounds you make travel and reduce vision of enemies. Not give you better odds rolling dice when you walk over invisible thresholds.

 

Hmm...you may misinterpret how the system works. There are no RNG stealth checks. Whether you are detected and/or targeted is strictly based on:

 

1) how illuminated you are

2) how much noise you are making

3) the zombies' detection ability (differs per zombie, so I guess there is a little RNG here: Arlene #1 might hear slightly better than Arlene #2)

 

If you cross a sleeper threshold, #1 is compared to all zombies' vision in the sleeper volume. Line-of-sight is ignored and that is arguably a Bad Thing, for sure! IIRC faatal said [or maybe it was a comment in the code] that this mechanic is a temporary stop-gap to get the system mostly working). But in any case there is no RNG component to "do I wake up the sleepers". There are some volumes (though I think it is more rare than players believe) which will always wake up when the player enters. "Scripted fights" if you want. Edit to add: okay not really. Reviewing our investigation in the older thread, the "worst" type of volume is an Attack volume, which gives the sleepers that ignore-LOS check to "see" you. In some cases, the volume might be designed - i.e. with zombies in the ceiling right over your head - so that that check nearly always succeeds and the zombies target you. But the volume is following the same rules as any other Attack volume, say one where the zombies are more spread out and don't have such an easy chance "seeing" you.

 

In my testing in the older thread, though, I was able to safely traverse a few volumes which players thought were "auto-attack" volumes. I needed several levels in the stealth skills though, and shooting out lights definitely helped! (Why don't the shots wake up the zombies?!? Gooood question...it definitely ain't perfect.)

 

If there are awake zombies around you, then they can detect sounds which, again, have no RNG component at the moment the noise is made. (As mentioned there is an RNG component giving small boosts/nerfs to individual zombies' hearing, but this is done at spawn time, not for each noise.) If the noise a) reaches the zombie and b) is above the hearing threshold of the zombie, it will go investigate the noise (but not necessarily target you!). Your stealth skills and equipment can muffle noises.

 

If a zombie is facing you, then we're back to player visibility vs. zombie visual acuity, but with line-of-sight considered of course. No RNG component. Your stealth skills and equipment can make you less visible.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[Catdaddy]

On topic but still off in left field.... I use settings to make my stealth "feel" more effective.

 

Daytime I have Feral Sense on, zombies run, feels like I am very visible and exposed. Nighttime I have FS off, zombies walk or jog, makes it feel like I'm good at creeping in the dark.

 

 

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Boidster said:

There are some volumes (though I think it is more rare than players believe) which will always wake up when the player enters. "Scripted fights" if you want. In my testing in the older thread, though, I was able to safely traverse a few volumes which players thought were "auto-attack" volumes. I needed several levels in the stealth skills though, and shooting out lights definitely helped!

I agree with most of what you wrote, but you claim there are volumes "worse" than the 2's? Can you point me to one?

[Boidster]

26 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I agree with most of what you wrote, but you claim there are volumes "worse" than the 2's? Can you point me to one?

 

Did I claim that? Let me pull up the code again and refresh my memory. Maybe I misspoke.

 

Edit to add: okay I see what you are saying. No, there is nothing worse than an Attack sleeper volume (a "2" in XML). At worst, I guess, there are volumes designed in such a way that the special "can I see you" check by the zombies is nearly guaranteed to succeed regardless of skill. I.e. where they fall out of the ceiling onto your head. You can still lose the targeting of course, so even that is not like BMH GPS where they lock on and don't let go.

 

I was being too accommodating above, I guess. There are no auto-attack volumes, really. Just the sometimes difficult-to-avoid standard Attack volumes (the 2s).

Edited May 17, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[theFlu]

15 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Did I claim that?

Well, that's how it reads; "some volumes which will always wake up" is being compared to "I was able to safely traverse a few of them". Do they wake up or not; we've established that the 2s don't (always!) - in that warehouse; for "some always waking up", there would need to be an additional type.

 

I'm being pedantic because the auto-attack-discussion is confused enough already - just trying to keep it as clear as possible for everyone..

[Boidster]

12 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Do they wake up or not; we've established that the 2s don't (always!)

 

I get what you're saying. I guess the farthest I'm willing to go is, "we've established that at least some Attack volumes can be traversed with a highly-skilled character." It would not surprise me, though I have not tested and proved it, if some Attack volumes were arranged in a way that makes the fight essentially unavoidable even by a max-skill player. There is a minimum distance to the player below which the zombie will wake up and it's in the range of a few/several meters. The stealth logger modlet shows these ranges; I've just never run it through a more...devious...sleeper volume. Would not surprise me to find a few which while not technically auto-attack, are effectively so.

 

Ah, found it. It's 3 meters. If you're closer than 3m, the sleeper zombies will detect you.

 

Quote

 

float num = Mathf.Lerp(3f, 15f, (float) (((double) this.lightAttackPercent - 0.349999994039536) * 1.53846156597137));

if ((double) _e.GetDistance((Entity) this.player) > (double) num)
        return false;

[else return true = "zombie detected you"]

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[theFlu]

6 minutes ago, Boidster said:

if some Attack volumes were arranged in a way that makes the fight essentially unavoidable even by a max-skill player. There is a minimum distance to the player below which the zombie will wake up and it's in the range of a few/several meters.

Ok, that's a fair point, although I'd be crying foul just for the setup in that case. You'd have to have all the zeds right next to the point of entry for them to wake up at optimal stealth conditions; sure it could be set up, but I wouldn't blame anyone for a rage-uninstall at that point...

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Ok, that's a fair point, although I'd be crying foul just for the setup in that case. You'd have to have all the zeds right next to the point of entry for them to wake up at optimal stealth conditions; sure it could be set up, but I wouldn't blame anyone for a rage-uninstall at that point...

 

Have a very small room with only 1 or 2 zombies and them ALL waking up means just those 1 or 2, nothing extraordinary.

 

 

[Deceptive Pastry]

4 hours ago, Boidster said:

If you cross a sleeper threshold, #1 is compared to all zombies' vision in the sleeper volume. Line-of-sight is ignored and that is arguably a Bad Thing, for sure! IIRC faatal said [or maybe it was a comment in the code] that this mechanic is a temporary stop-gap to get the system mostly working). But in any case there is no RNG component to "do I wake up the sleepers". There are some volumes (though I think it is more rare than players believe) which will always wake up when the player enters. "Scripted fights" if you want.

I don't remember if it was described as doing a stealth check factoring your current stealth skill, or if that was a mechanic they were talking about wanting to add. I have seen that how well lit you are at the moment you cross the threshold determines if they wake. So you can do silly things like build wood blocks over your head before you walk into a room to lower your light level. Which is really non-sensical. Line of sight should not be removed from an equation that involves checking if you can be seen. It also never seems to be just a couple sleepers waking up in the room, so I don't know if it's just checking the zombie with the best hearing, or if there's just not a huge variance in hearing levels.

Part of the problem is tying both sound and light level into one "visibility" meter. So you get nonsensical things like zombies "hearing" you through walls and waking up because you're underneath a light. At least it seems that way, if they're just ignoring line of sight. Sounds should only wake and/or draw zombies toward that location, light level should be totally separate and only for line of sight checks.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Deceptive Pastry (see edit history)

[meganoth]

20 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

Yep. And once I got into the code it was clear that it is only light level (that is, light falling on the player) vs. the zombie's detection range (line-of-sight be damned) that determined whether sleepers wake up (with auto-targeting depending on crouching/not-crouching, and player's skill if crouched). Noise plays no role. Once they're awake, of course, noise plays a role. The stealth logger shows the light level and detection and all of that, for anyone interested.

 

Are you talking here about the volume trigger or the continuous detection done by "active" zombies as well?

If it is only about the volume trigger, thats okay. Once active the zombies will be scanning for noise in their normal routine

[theFlu]

12 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Have a very small room with only 1 or 2 zombies and them ALL waking up means just those 1 or 2, nothing extraordinary.

 

I'll still call foul. Or at least silly ... (Kage has 4/5 skills at that point)

 

[Roland]

I’m going to say this one more time because it is important and some seem to not be grokking it. 
 

Zombies are not intended to always be asleep when they are encountered by the player. Zombies “waking up” are not necessarily linked to stealth. Some are always going to wake up because that is the script for them when they encounter the player— to be active. 
 

In every other stealth game you are not facing and stealthing against 100% unconscious enemies. In fact, they are rarely unconscious in those games and are often walking through a sentry routine or overwatching a position. 
 

To say that zombies should remain asleep unless awoken by a noise the player made shows a misunderstanding of the main purpose of the sleeper volume spawn mechanic. It is not to gift wrap immobile unconscious targets. It is to set up a room with zombies just before the player gets there in a way that prevents them from wrecking the room or wandering away. Some of those zombies are meant to stay asleep but some of them are meant to be awake.  Just like in every other stealth game you have to stealth vs awake enemies sometimes. 
 

Perhaps there needs to be work done on the timing and maybe new solutions will be necessary (such as the “wandering sleepers” mentioned in the past) so that enemies can spawn in already awake and not waking up in view of the player.  But in the meantime, what we have is a mechanism for the player to confront mobile awake zombies (which you can in many cases still stealth). The change from sleeping to awake is not always due to a failed stealth action. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[meganoth]

44 minutes ago, theFlu said:

 

I'll still call foul. Or at least silly ... (Kage has 4/5 skills at that point)

 

 

Sadly this doesn't show whether they would have zeroed in on Kage or just stumbled to his last location if he sneaked back. He immediately left stealth and attacked them

 

And please notice the light level. Whether it is a good change can be argued but sneaking in daylight or a well lit corridor is a lot harder and actually more realistic than before. I don't care about realism, but when you say silly, how silly would it be if those zombies did not see the player in this small and illuminated corridor?

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Deceptive Pastry]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

I’m going to say this one more time because it is important and some seem to not be grokking it. 
 

Zombies are not intended to always be asleep when they are encountered by the player. Zombies “waking up” are not necessarily linked to stealth. Some are always going to wake up because that is the script for them when they encounter the player— to be active. 
 

In every other stealth game you are not facing and stealthing against 100% unconscious enemies. In fact, they are rarely unconscious in those games and are often walking through a sentry routine or overwatching a position.

You say this and that would be fine, but in practice, this is not what we have in-game. Zombies that are just idly walking/patrolling around a house. What we have is:

• Zombies hidden in nonsensical places like drop ceilings/drywall that BURST OUT at you despite making no noise
• Zombies that have been in closets for weeks/months magically deciding to break out the moment you enter the volume
• The opposite of your scenario, which is zombies that don't wake up, being hidden around corners/objects and in some cases not able to be hit without getting close enough to wake them.
• Zombies that all seem to home in on you when crossing the threshold (I know they aren't aggroed to you immediately, but they still seem to move toward the location you entered, as if you had made a noise, instead of just idly wandering)

If the sleeper system is supposed to just be a way to deliver awake idle zombies while saving resources, it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel like I'm entering a house where zombies are roaming. It feels rooms are waking up and looking for me the moment I enter, even if I'm not doing anything that should make my presence known.

[No_Name_Idea]

39 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Sadly this doesn't show whether they would have zeroed in on Kage or just stumbled to his last location if he sneaked back. He immediately left stealth and attacked them

I think it's a bit silly to expect a player who encounters a scenerio like that to be like "yeah, I'll chill for a bit and see if they're going to rush me down". I'm not saying that you do but I assume some people here might have that kind of opinion. Maybe it's just me but whenever I encounter something like this, you best believe I'm pulling out a shotgun.
 

35 minutes ago, Deceptive Pastry said:

If the sleeper system is supposed to just be a way to deliver awake idle zombies while saving resources, it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel like I'm entering a house where zombies are roaming. It feels rooms are waking up and looking for me the moment I enter, even if I'm not doing anything that should make my presence known.

This.

Edited May 17, 2022 by No_Name_Idea (see edit history)

[theFlu]

34 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I don't care about realism, but when you say silly, how silly would it be if those zombies did not see the player in this small and illuminated corridor?

Through the solid ceiling perfectly capable of carrying their weight until the exact moment they see someone. Various level between ludicrous and ridiculous tbh. I get that it's a game and have accepted the nonsense will be permanent, but it doesn't make it any less nonsense ... Foul!

[meganoth]

25 minutes ago, No_Name_Idea said:

I think it's a bit silly to expect a player who encounters a scenerio like that to be like "yeah, I'll chill for a bit and see if they're going to rush me down". I'm not saying that you do but I assume some people here might have that kind of opinion. Maybe it's just me but whenever I encounter something like this, you best believe I'm pulling out a shotgun.
 

 

When I play AGI/stealth I consider myself a lightly armored guy who's greatest strengths are speed and stealth. So unless I think I can handle them right there with bow, knife or silenced gun I will strategically withdraw (or in other words run or slither away like a coward). Ok, sometimes I will draw the big guns too, especially if I don't expect to draw more zombies by loud shooting.

 

But my reply to theFlu was more about the fact that the video doesn't really give me more information, at least not the info I'm most interested in

 

 

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, Deceptive Pastry said:

I don't remember if it was described as doing a stealth check factoring your current stealth skill, or if that was a mechanic they were talking about wanting to add. I have seen that how well lit you are at the moment you cross the threshold determines if they wake. So you can do silly things like build wood blocks over your head before you walk into a room to lower your light level. Which is really non-sensical. Line of sight should not be removed from an equation that involves checking if you can be seen. It also never seems to be just a couple sleepers waking up in the room, so I don't know if it's just checking the zombie with the best hearing, or if there's just not a huge variance in hearing levels.

Part of the problem is tying both sound and light level into one "visibility" meter. So you get nonsensical things like zombies "hearing" you through walls and waking up because you're underneath a light. At least it seems that way, if they're just ignoring line of sight. Sounds should only wake and/or draw zombies toward that location, light level should be totally separate and only for line of sight checks.

 

Agree that is is a little silly. The zombies' hearing does not enter into it, though, only their visual range (which...I mean...they're ASLEEP but whatever). And it's only your illumination vs. their vision that is checked. (To be clear I am only talking about an "Attack" volume - type 2 in the xml - and a crouched player.)

 

I'm okay with the combined stealth meter, but it is useless (and not used) for the Attack-volume wakey-wakey check. So it's pretty deceptive in that situation. I hope they improve it somehow, but as I understand it they want these Attack-type sleeper volumes to be pretty touchy when a player enters them. This "can I see you and never mind about line of sight" thing is specific to attack-type sleepers. And so they're...touchy. Other sleepers and normal zombies use the normal stealth rules.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Are you talking here about the volume trigger or the continuous detection done by "active" zombies as well?

If it is only about the volume trigger, thats okay. Once active the zombies will be scanning for noise in their normal routine

 

Yes, sorry, that is what I meant when I said:

Quote

it is only light level ... that determined whether sleepers wake up ... Once they're awake, of course, noise plays a role.

 

I should have said "whether sleepers wake up when you cross into a volume" perhaps.