Are there any plans on making stealth actually stealth?

[No_Name_Idea]

I'm talking about invisible triggers in POIs that wake up the entire rooms full of zombies even in perfect stealth. Is it here to stay? I won't even ask about blood moon horde since I don't know how it would be possible to incorporate sneaking into the event.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Not gonna happen in blood moon. During horde night they always GPS you. That´s intended. 

 

Sadly the POI trigger rooms are intended too. I just wish they would balance this out more. It sucks so bad that you can tear down a wall from outside right next to a zombie not waking him up, but if you go the intended path he wakes up just because you cross the invisible line of the the sleeper volume.

Edited May 16, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[No_Name_Idea]

10 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Not gonna happen in blood moon. During horde night they always GPS you. That´s intended. 

 

Sadly the POI trigger rooms are intended too. I just wish they would balance this out more. It sucks so bad that you can tear down a wall from outside right next to a zombie not waking him up, but if you go the intended path he wakes up just because you cross the invisible line of the the sleeper volume.

Yeah, I know that the triggers are intended to work like that NOW. I just wonder if they will be removed later because I've heard that devs are planning on adding wandering zombies in POIs.

[Novamourne]

All they need to do is apply the bonuses you get from stealth while crouched to also be applied to you in any stance during a blood moon. It still wouldn't be as good, but it would prevent the points from being completely wasted during bloodmoons. 

As far as the zombies waking up, I have never cared for the triggers. I think the major issue is that if they don't have an unspawned or sleeping state than anything other than stealth wouldn't be feasible as you'd just aggro the entire house/poi from the first gunfire. Honestly, I don't know how they work around this but I do think they should work on it. If nothing else, they should make it where the zombies are unaware of stealthed players even when they wake up from a trigger.

[Uncle Al]

That's already happening - there's now a stealth check when you cross a trigger volume and zombies can spawn unaware of you.  The chance is dependant on your stealth skill.  It's also worth knowing you automatically fail the check if you have a light source out, no matter how stealthy you are.

 

It still needs fine tuning but a lot of volumes that look like 'auto attack' are now 'auto spawn and blunder around looking for you'.  By keeping my cool and relocating and sniping I'm regularly getting stealth bonus hits on zombies that I initially thought were aware of me.

[No_Name_Idea]

9 minutes ago, Uncle Al said:

That's already happening - there's now a stealth check when you cross a trigger volume and zombies can spawn unaware of you.  The chance is dependant on your stealth skill.  It's also worth knowing you automatically fail the check if you have a light source out, no matter how stealthy you are.

 

It still needs fine tuning but a lot of volumes that look like 'auto attack' are now 'auto spawn and blunder around looking for you'.  By keeping my cool and relocating and sniping I'm regularly getting stealth bonus hits on zombies that I initially thought were aware of me.

I dunno man, so far I've only experienced 3 things when passing through what I can tell are triggers:
1. Zombies straight up spawning right before my eyes unawake
2. Zombies falling out of ceilings fully aware of where I am
3. Already spawned sleepers all waking up and beelining towards me

Also the "auto spawn and look for player" is really an ass-backwards way of doing stealth but hey, what do I know

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

I dunno man, so far I've only experienced 3 things when passing through what I can tell are triggers:
1. Zombies straight up spawning right before my eyes unawake
2. Zombies falling out of ceilings fully aware of where I am
3. Already spawned sleepers all waking up and beelining towards me

Also the "auto spawn and look for player" is really an ass-backwards way of doing stealth but hey, what do I know

 

2) Not necessarily. You might think they are aware of you, but if you did not make a mistake those zombies probably only have a general sense of a location where you might be. If you had been just moving away stealthily you would notice them running around then stopping and listening (unless one of them stumbles over you by chance). And then you can simply snipe them with stealth bonuses.

3) Again this might be a case like 2. Sneak backwards and if they stop at your previous location you are good, otherwise get out the big guns or run away to restealth. Using stealth is a dynamic challenge now and not the simple static spot-and-shoot-sitting-ducks minigame.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

2) Not necessarily. You might think they are aware of you, but if you did not make a mistake those zombies probably only have a general sense of a location where you might be. If you had been just moving away stealthily you would notice them running around then stopping and listening (unless one of them stumbles over you by chance). And then you can simply snipe them with stealth bonuses.

3) Again this might be a case like 2. Sneak backwards and if they stop at your previous location you are good, otherwise get out the big guns or run away to restealth. Using stealth is a dynamic challenge now and not the simple static spot-and-shoot-sitting-ducks minigame.

 

If that's the case, does From The Shadows perk even affect anything anymore? If what you said is true then the only useful thing about the perk would be the the restealth time reduction :v

[theFlu]

44 minutes ago, meganoth said:

3) Again this might be a case like 2.

Practically, no. Emphasis on the phrasing "all"; if a single zed gets up, it might be an "investigate" situation. But if several wake up, you're most likely in an attack volume (type 2) and the zeds are artificially glued on you until they can actually see you - after which they're no longer artificially on you, just on you.

 

And as the type 2 volumes are pretty numerous, it's in no way a tactical mistake to treat them all as if they are; only if you actually recognize it is a "safer" type should you play like it is.

 

You can try to hide, but it doesn't take that many times of just getting your face pummeled in to decide it not being worth it.

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, No_Name_Idea said:

If that's the case, does From The Shadows perk even affect anything anymore? If what you said is true then the only useful thing about the perk would be the the restealth time reduction :v

 

You may be interested in the Stealth Logging modlet. It'll show you (in the log/console, so it's for educational purposes only - not useful as an in-game stealth monitor during fights) which "awake" zombies are actually targeting you vs. which ones are targeting a noise that just happened to come from where you're standing. (And it's not really even "noise" - the stealth system is very much light/visibility based)

 

There's also a modlet which allows one-shotting lights (Boid's Lights Out), to improve stealth. Requires buying From the Shadows level 2.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[doughphunghus]

23 minutes ago, Boidster said:

There's also a modlet which allows one-shotting lights, to improve stealth. Requires buying From the Shadows level 2.

That sounds neat but I can’t locate it. Can you provide a link to this one? One shotting lights sounds like it would be fun in some situations. 

 

In the same “less lighting” idea: there is a mod that turns off all the POI lights at the start of the game. The last update appears to be for a19 and I haven’t looked up details to see if it’s a20 compatible as I’m not running it in my current game (I tried to get it and the “poi light enabler” to work together and they don’t work together at that time, but it was early a20) https://7daystodiemods.com/no-poi-lights/

Edited May 16, 2022 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[Boidster]

Oops, sorry, it's the same link! I'll update my post above. It links to "Boid's A20 Miscellaneous Modlets" which includes both the Stealth Logger and the Lights Out modlets.

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

If that's the case, does From The Shadows perk even affect anything anymore? If what you said is true then the only useful thing about the perk would be the the restealth time reduction :v

 

From the Shadows improves your chances with each Zed in an attack volume.

 

Each of those Zeds does its own determination whether it sees you after you cross the trigger line. That depends at least on your stealth, the zeds notice skill (higher level zombies notice better) and the distance. Possibly a random roll is added to this but Boidster seems to have looked at the source code and I think he said he didn't find anything random about it

 

Clarification: There are two types of volumes in POIs, normal ones where zombies are just spawned when you enter the volume. Individual zombies will check all the time and detect you whenever you are too loud or visible, but with good stealth that would be never.

The type-2 volumes do at least make zombies "active" (whatever that means) if your stealth is good or actively hunt you if your stealth is bad. Whatever "active" means it should be of advantage to you.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[warmer]

I'd like to see them bring smell radius back. That gives you a reason to trigger them even while in stealth. You cant sneak your stink no matter how hard you try. 

[Roland]

9 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

I'm talking about invisible triggers in POIs that wake up the entire rooms full of zombies even in perfect stealth. Is it here to stay? I won't even ask about blood moon horde since I don't know how it would be possible to incorporate sneaking into the event.

 

Invisible triggers causing zombies to wake up  will always be a thing. I have asked the level design team and they have unequivocally stated that they want certain places in POIs where zombies are aggravated and active. "Sleepers" were always conceived as a way to spawn in zombies and have them remain in the rooms until the player gets to the room and avoid the situation where they all exit the poi and come out into the street in front of the POI or damage everything in a room trying to get out. It was never intended in the final form that players would always encounter sleeping enemies in every single room and that gameplay would be shooting at immobile unconscious targets 100% of the time.  "Sleeping" is the spawn state but not necessarily the intended gameplay state for every single room in a POI. 

 

So triggers will continue to wake up zombies in certain places no matter how stealthy the player is. Stealth was never intended as a mechanism to keep zombies asleep. Sometimes due to lighting and line of sight, zombies will notice the player upon becoming active from the trigger but often they are not aware of the player-- just the location where the trigger was activated. If you think of stealth as staying undetected by zombies whether they stay asleep or wake up then you will continue to have fun with stealth and put points into those perks. If you continue to think of stealth as a way to keep zombies from waking up then you will be frustrated and feel like the stealth perks are a waste of points.

 

It used to be when "sleepers" were more undeveloped that you could sneak through an entire POI without waking up a single zombie but those days are gone. The level designers want a variety of encounters in the POIs and do not intend for zombies to stay asleep throughout. However, for the most part, if you are careful you can keep yourself undetected whether they wake up or not. You can also retreat and hide and then re-emerge undetected and get your stealth kill bonuses.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

Practically, no. Emphasis on the phrasing "all"; if a single zed gets up, it might be an "investigate" situation. But if several wake up, you're most likely in an attack volume (type 2) and the zeds are artificially glued on you until they can actually see you - after which they're no longer artificially on you, just on you.

 

And as the type 2 volumes are pretty numerous, it's in no way a tactical mistake to treat them all as if they are; only if you actually recognize it is a "safer" type should you play like it is.

 

You can try to hide, but it doesn't take that many times of just getting your face pummeled in to decide it not being worth it.

 

You are refering to this thread where it was discussed I suppose: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/27522-so-i-decided-to-track-sleeper-volumes-in-pois-and-how-many-are-ambushes/?do=findComment&comment=471641

 

We didn't get a conclusive answer then, but that "see you to not see you" I would classify as an unintended consequence aka bug of the AI switching between different modes.

 

Also there was lots of talk about type 2 attack volumes. And at one time Boidster showed the code and from it it seems that if your stealth is bad they will all be coming at you for some time (the dreaded case you talked about above). But if your stealth is excellent then those zombies just go into active state but we were not sure what active means here. It might be that they just target your old location and search from there, or that they are only actively listening but still in a sleeping position.

 

One thing is sure though: Even in type 2 attack volumes there would be a difference between you being really stealthy or just pretending.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

14 minutes ago, meganoth said:

But if your stealth is excellent then those zombies just go into active state but we were not sure what active means here.

From my tests in the time of that thread; the "active" state is the 'default' sleeping state. If the check fails, the sleeper has its senses activated for normal detection, nothing more. At least I never found a third state where they would get up but not come at the player (in the GPS mode).

[meganoth]

1 minute ago, theFlu said:

From my tests in the time of that thread; the "active" state is the 'default' sleeping state. If the check fails, the sleeper has its senses activated for normal detection, nothing more. At least I never found a third state where they would get up but not come at the player (in the GPS mode).

 

Does this mean you can enter a type-2 attack volume and no zombie makes a move? I thought at least the intention was different (judging by Faatals words).

 

 

[theFlu]

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Does this mean you can enter a type-2 attack volume and no zombie makes a move?

Yup.

[No_Name_Idea]

Damn, I have no idea what like half of the words thrown around here mean :v

[Roland]

1 hour ago, No_Name_Idea said:

Damn, I have no idea what like half of the words thrown around here mean :v

 

Triggers that make zombies wake up will never go away. It is a big part of the game. The guys who design the pois want triggers that wake up zombies. 

[meganoth]

In simple words I would say the following is true:

1) stealth perk does help, everywhere.

2) Light has a big influence on stealth now

3) There are some rooms where zombies will immediately attack you when you enter the room when you are in the light or just not stealthy enough

4) There might even be some rooms that are so well lighted that even the stealthiest possible player will be detected by some of the zombies in there.

5) Stealth is more difficult to play now than in previous alphas

 

[theFlu]

I'll say 1,2 and 5 look solid. I wouldn't make the claims 3&4 myself, just because I don't actually know the effective relevance of light levels on attack volumes; light matters, but the skills seemed a lot more significant there. But I'm not going to claim they're wrong either

[Roland]

There are some roof tops that the zombies wake up every single time during the day when you step foot on the rooftop but stay asleep if you do it at night. I think that this is pretty good evidence that #4 is true.

 

Remember that we are saying "rooms" but what we really mean are "Sleeper Volumes"

Edited May 16, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[theFlu]

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

There are some roof tops that the zombies wake up every single time during the day

Nice; happen to remember POI tags so I could take a look?