Shout-out to those responsible for the xml modding framework.

[John Black]

I’ve recently started a new game, no traders and today I ran into a bloody vending machine and was ah f**#.  Luckily this is 7d2d, so it was shutdown the game, 2 mins of xml, restart and problem solved! I mean, holy @%$#, compare that to starting up the UE/Java to mod something like that, and you’d most likely still have to rebuild the chunk or restart the map.

 

Sure, we need loads more of exposures and bits we can tweak, but there is no comparison out there that I know of.

 

So a big THANK YOU MadMole, and everyone instrumental in the development of this awesome XML/XPath modding framework. 👍

[Roland]

Pleased to hear some positivity regarding the ability/need to mod in order to get the kind of game you want to play. It's unfortunate that some people look upon the ability to modify the game as something "sad" or as a "necessary evil". It is, in fact, a huge benefit provided by the developers and they do deserve props for structuring the game code the way they did. No less thanks to all the talented folks out there extending the game into exciting new areas and taking it beyond the vanilla experience. You guys are tireless in your desire to recreate 7 Days in your own vision and to keep it working update after update after update.

[Gamida]

I don't understand the negativity some have with adding mods. I mean they will ask for a certain thing to be added to game. There may be a mod out there that does exactly what they want but won't use it because it is not in the vanilla game. But as I said it is something they asked for. If the devs added it they would use it so the only difference is who is adding it. If devs add their request it's fine, if a modder makes it, it's not.

[theFlu]

31 minutes ago, Gamida said:

I don't understand the negativity some have with adding mods.

Hi,

- Linux user here; last I checked, I can't run the mod launcher. So, manual maintenance including copying the game around, trying to not mix my saves and versions etc.

- Do I care enough about this exact thing to learn the process to mod it in? And bother with the headaches of maintaining it?

- Don't have an account for a mod site (would I need one? Do I care enough to figure that out?)

- Can this mod mess up my localhosted co-ops? Would my friends want the mod or not?

- If it's a small issue that would improve the game; why wouldn't I suggest adding it to base game - whether or not I use the mod?

- Can I say I like 7dtd / am good at it / suggest my friends to get it, if I'm actually enjoying one of the overhauls?

 

And with all that said, I'm firmly pro-modding, some of that stuff looks awesome Kudos for TFP indeed.

But it's not like modding is a zero investment proposition.

[Ramethzer0]

50 minutes ago, Gamida said:

I don't understand the negativity some have with adding mods.

I thought about this for a while myself, until I learned that some folks don't want to change.  They want the rest of the world to change for them.

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Hi,

- Linux user here; last I checked, I can't run the mod launcher. So, manual maintenance including copying the game around, trying to not mix my saves and versions etc.

- Do I care enough about this exact thing to learn the process to mod it in? And bother with the headaches of maintaining it?

- Don't have an account for a mod site (would I need one? Do I care enough to figure that out?)

- Can this mod mess up my localhosted co-ops? Would my friends want the mod or not?

- If it's a small issue that would improve the game; why wouldn't I suggest adding it to base game - whether or not I use the mod?

- Can I say I like 7dtd / am good at it / suggest my friends to get it, if I'm actually enjoying one of the overhauls?

 

And with all that said, I'm firmly pro-modding, some of that stuff looks awesome Kudos for TFP indeed.

But it's not like modding is a zero investment proposition.

 

I agree that the barrier to using a mod may be too high for some users and it really has to be up to them whether they want those changes badly enough to invest the learning and time needed to make it happen.

 

But there are some who complain AND they admit that they currently use mods. They use them and act like using them is a sign of failure on the part of the developers. The first time I modded extra zombies into my game I had a huge grin on my face and felt a great sense of enjoyment. But some others who do the same thing seem to have a big frown on their face and feel a great sense of indignation...

[theFlu]

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

They use them and act like using them is a sign of failure on the part of the developers.

Well, it's not evidence to the contrary, either? They feel the game is broken enough that they have to obtain a fix from a 3rd party. I mean, plenty of launch versions of AAA games worked just fine*.

 

* as long as you went and got the proper "mods" once they were published by 3rd parties. Some called them "fixes" but that's just semantics.

 

12 minutes ago, Roland said:

The first time I modded extra zombies into my game I had a huge grin on my face and felt a great sense of enjoyment. But some others who do the same thing seem to have a big frown on their face and feel a great sense of indignation...

Indeed, it's a matter of perspective. People are prone to seeing things differently; this does not come as a surprise to a forum mod... Some see it as "wohoo, I got to improve the game like this" and some will go "geez, this was so easy, why aren't the devs doing this already." The latter may not see the minimum specs as gospel, while the former may just have low standards for devs. I wouldn't know; I won't even make a claim if that is knowable...

[Maharin]

I've played the game so long and have done lots of things including modding just about every XML file in the game... but currently I play unmodded and not that often.  I'm kinda waiting for some of the big stuff that will truly change the game to be released (like bandits) and/or release.  Once I have a more stable target to aim for I will start modding the hell out of this game, for sure, and sharing what I can that makes sense.

 

In the meantime I'm just a nuisance on the forums.  

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I agree that the barrier to using a mod may be too high for some users and it really has to be up to them whether they want those changes badly enough to invest the learning and time needed to make it happen.

 

But there are some who complain AND they admit that they currently use mods. They use them and act like using them is a sign of failure on the part of the developers. The first time I modded extra zombies into my game I had a huge grin on my face and felt a great sense of enjoyment. But some others who do the same thing seem to have a big frown on their face and feel a great sense of indignation...

 

That would be me. Because it´s a huge pain to get everyone in the group to mod when you are the only one who is experienced with modding games. I can mod my SP, no problem. MP is s a problem. That´s why i use mods, but still say that some things that can be solved with mods should be solved by the devs.

[Gamida]

5 hours ago, theFlu said:

Hi,

- Linux user here; last I checked, I can't run the mod launcher. So, manual maintenance including copying the game around, trying to not mix my saves and versions etc.

- Do I care enough about this exact thing to learn the process to mod it in? And bother with the headaches of maintaining it?

- Don't have an account for a mod site (would I need one? Do I care enough to figure that out?)

- Can this mod mess up my localhosted co-ops? Would my friends want the mod or not?

- If it's a small issue that would improve the game; why wouldn't I suggest adding it to base game - whether or not I use the mod?

- Can I say I like 7dtd / am good at it / suggest my friends to get it, if I'm actually enjoying one of the overhauls?

 

And with all that said, I'm firmly pro-modding, some of that stuff looks awesome Kudos for TFP indeed.

But it's not like modding is a zero investment proposition.

I don't use linux but I also don't run the mod launcher either. I just manually make a mods folder and add in the mods I want. I sometimes have 2 or more copies of the game on my hard drive of different versions or for trying different overhaul mods so it doesn't affect my vanilla game in my steam folder. (Also that helps from my games from being changed when a new version drops )

You don't need an account for a mod site. Plenty of mods in the forum.

As for messing up you localhosted co-op you could do what I mentioned above. Just make a copy of the 7 days to die game somewhere else on your drive and use that for testing mods.

As for getting it added to base game. Am all for it. If it increases gameplay time for me I am all in lol

The main part of you last line is "if I'm actually enjoying one of the overhauls". That says it all right there. Who cares what anyone else thinks if you are enjoying your own game.

 

I think my statement I made made me come off as not respecting people who like to play vanilla. That is not the case. I often play a vanilla version of 7 days. Especially when a new alpha drops. Then later I slowly add in a mod here and there until I run out of hard drive space to add any more

[theFlu]

9 minutes ago, Gamida said:

I don't use linux but I also .. <snip>

Umm, heh. Seems I might've sold that blurb a little too well; I'm mostly aware of most of that stuff by now, I was just making the point that there's a whole lot that goes into modding a game - which in comparison makes a little whine on the forum an order of magnitude easier.

As in, I appreciate the advice, even if the effort might've been a bit wasted here, sorry

 

7 minutes ago, Gamida said:

Who cares what anyone else thinks if you are enjoying your own game.

And I absolutely agree with that, whatever rustles yer boat ..

[Maharin]

TFP is Kung Fury

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Gamida]

4 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Umm, heh. Seems I might've sold that blurb a little too well; I'm mostly aware of most of that stuff by now, I was just making the point that there's a whole lot that goes into modding a game - which in comparison makes a little whine on the forum an order of magnitude easier.

As in, I appreciate the advice, even if the effort might've been a bit wasted here, sorry

 

And I absolutely agree with that, whatever rustles yer boat ..

lol no problem there. Someday someone might see it and get something from it.

And I never rustles my boat...not in public anyway

[Roland]

6 hours ago, theFlu said:

Well, it's not evidence to the contrary, either? They feel the game is broken enough that they have to obtain a fix from a 3rd party. I mean, plenty of launch versions of AAA games worked just fine*

 

Not yet its not. There is no launch version of this game yet.

 

If this game launches full version without a slider to optionally increase or decrease enemy spawns in the game and the only way to do so is to mod more in (for example*) then I will be first in line to agree that the evidence stacks up on the side of modding being relied upon as a fix-- but until then the jury is out and modding is simply a way to get what you want until the devs put it in themselves.

 

*Of course, everyone is going to have their own personal little quibbles about what a flaw is but I think there will be large universal agreement on certain issues like the lack of any option in the top menu to adjust spawning numbers and rates. Matt will never convince me that the absence of a newstand is a game design flaw and the debate over LBD vs central pool will go on forever but there are some issues that most would agree upon.

[bdubyah]

11 minutes ago, Roland said:

Matt will never convince me that the absence of a newstand is a game design flaw

He'd probably soften his stance on the newsstand if you give him the skeletons. 

[theFlu]

14 hours ago, Roland said:

If this game launches full version

So.. wait. what?

Gamida: "I don't understand people complaining about the lack of features they could mod in"

Me: "Modding is actually pretty involved... a proper fix might reduce the headache later on. So, why not?"

Roland: "Some people are modding and complaining about THAT like it's a problem"

Me: "Yeah, they might be complaining because they have to fix it themselves"

Roland: "Yeah, but the game isn't complete yet"

 

I mean.. yeah, it isn't. But isn't Early Access a decent enough time to give feedback.. like.. "I'm using these mods, and they seem real popular among my friends. How about adding them to vanilla." Are we about to embark on a voyage of discovery about the nuances of "complaining"?

 

I'm all for civility, but I still fail to see how any of this is surprising to anyone ... Whenever it is easier to type an angry post rather than "look for - install - upkeep" a mod for you and yours; people will take the easy route and whine.

[Gamida]

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

So.. wait. what?

Gamida: "I don't understand people complaining about the lack of features they could mod in"

Me: "Modding is actually pretty involved... a proper fix might reduce the headache later on. So, why not?"

Roland: "Some people are modding and complaining about THAT like it's a problem"

Me: "Yeah, they might be complaining because they have to fix it themselves"

Roland: "Yeah, but the game isn't complete yet"

 

I mean.. yeah, it isn't. But isn't Early Access a decent enough time to give feedback.. like.. "I'm using these mods, and they seem real popular among my friends. How about adding them to vanilla." Are we about to embark on a voyage of discovery about the nuances of "complaining"?

 

I'm all for civility, but I still fail to see how any of this is surprising to anyone ... Whenever it is easier to type an angry post rather than "look for - install - upkeep" a mod for you and yours; people will take the easy route and whine.

I am all for adding some of these mods to vanilla. I asked Subquakes about releasing the ability to lock individual slots as a standalone, but he didn't go for it . Modding is pretty involved...if you are making the actual mod. A huge amount of mods I have used are really just drag and drop to use. Mind you I know the pitfalls of adding 2 mods that mix like oil and water. That is how I learned to add them one or two at a time, not 20 at once lol.

[doughphunghus]

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

So.. wait. what?

Gamida: "I don't understand people complaining about the lack of features they could mod in"

Me: "Modding is actually pretty involved... a proper fix might reduce the headache later on. So, why not?"

Roland: "Some people are modding and complaining about THAT like it's a problem"

Me: "Yeah, they might be complaining because they have to fix it themselves"

Roland: "Yeah, but the game isn't complete yet"

 

I mean.. yeah, it isn't. But isn't Early Access a decent enough time to give feedback.. like.. "I'm using these mods, and they seem real popular among my friends. How about adding them to vanilla." Are we about to embark on a voyage of discovery about the nuances of "complaining"?

 

I'm all for civility, but I still fail to see how any of this is surprising to anyone ... Whenever it is easier to type an angry post rather than "look for - install - upkeep" a mod for you and yours; people will take the easy route and whine.

It wold be appreciated a bit if a certain mod was used “a lot” TFP could put it on a list or something of “things we may add once the game is ready” (not guaranteed, just “seeking input on this feature but we promise nothing”)  just so:

1. You would know this is a possible “feature” to be added, so the modders may keep it up. And people might stop asking for x feature.

2. People might be willing to add the mod(s) in the list, just to get a feel/input for how it might best work, so once the game is “ready” the mod is hopefully literally “ready enough”  for TFP to add its code/features.

3. TFP might have a round of “adding these mods” as part of the game as a final “feature test” before going gold.  It might be cool/neat.

 

 

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Gamida said:

I asked Subquakes about releasing the ability to lock individual slots as a standalone, but he didn't go for it .

Darnit; no actual idea about that mod, but if I were to add any mod, inventory locks would be the first one. The counter-based one is fine enough, but a terraria type "lock any slot by alt-click" would be pretty great.

 

1 hour ago, doughphunghus said:

if a certain mod was used “a lot” TFP could put it on a list

I'm sure TFP are keeping an eye on what QoL mods people like, but listing them out.. well, lets just say they've become quite reluctant stating anything about possible futures, people take such things way too seriously.

 

Straight up "copying" a mod might be a legal nightmare; even if both sides would be happy about it. I wouldn't consider any such thing without either MIT-license on the mod or an actual contract about it.

[Gamida]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Darnit; no actual idea about that mod, but if I were to add any mod, inventory locks would be the first one. The counter-based one is fine enough, but a terraria type "lock any slot by alt-click" would be pretty great.

 

Yeah it is a pretty sweet option. I think you just had to right click the slot to lock/unlock it. Would have been perfect for me as I like to keep certain items in a certain slot and not have them move when I clicked the sort button or move all to a storage box. If TFP were ever going to add something, that would be about my top choice.

[Roland]

8 hours ago, theFlu said:

So.. wait. what?

Gamida: "I don't understand people complaining about the lack of features they could mod in"

Me: "Modding is actually pretty involved... a proper fix might reduce the headache later on. So, why not?"

Roland: "Some people are modding and complaining about THAT like it's a problem"

Me: "Yeah, they might be complaining because they have to fix it themselves"

Roland: "Yeah, but the game isn't complete yet"

 

Well...when you paraphrase the conversation like that it does seem like a disjointed response that makes me look pretty stupid...

 

Here is my take on it:

 

Me: "Glad to read some positivity regarding modding"

Gamida: "I don't understand why people complain about being able to mod features in"

TheFlu: "Modding can be very involved and for a variety of listed reasons they may not be able to do it"

Me: "Yes, but some people are modding and ranting that it is evidence of developer failure"

TheFlu: "Well it's not evidence that it's not dev failure since there are many AAA launch titles that must be fixed by mods"

Me: "Yeah, but this game isn't a launch title so it's not evidence of dev failure until it launches."

TheFlue: "So...wait. what?"

 

I guess we just focused on different parts of the convo. <shrug>

 

btw..I'm all for feedback and letting the devs know which mods are most popular and what people seem to be wanted to be added. I would love to see threads full of excited reporting about how much fun a mod is and why. I'd take that over a rant thread complaining about what must be modded into the game in order to make it remotely fun. Excitement and fun is contagious and may inspire some dev who reads it whereas accusations of laziness, ineptness, and even dishonesty in some cases isn't going to make a dent in what the devs plan to do or not to do.

[Roland]

 

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

Straight up "copying" a mod might be a legal nightmare; even if both sides would be happy about it.

 

No it wouldn't. The EULA clearly states that all derivative works are the sole property of The Fun Pimps. They might suffer some public relations problems if the modder they copied made a stink about it (most would just be thrilled) and it somehow went viral and everyone decided to jump on the anti TFP bandwagon but there would be no legal problems with it at all.

 

However, they wouldn't just copy a mod anyway. They have access to a lot more of the code than modders do and so their methodology for adding a feature that a modder added would be completely different. Modders tend to use existing hooks in order to jury rig their features together whereas TFP just creates new hooks to fully support and integrate a new feature into the existing code and make sure it doesn't conflict with anything else.

 

In short, even if TFP put an identical feature into the game that a modder had done first, the code would look nothing like what the modder did and so even if there was a judge sympathetic to the plights of poor oppressed modders and wanted to make an example of TFP as an evil money grubbing company and so threw out the EULA as faulty and unfair-- defense lawyers could easily set up the code side by side and there would be no question that there really was no copying.

[Guppycur]

...you could always visit the mod section of the forum if you want to read positive feedback about mods, instead of the negative rants... 😃

 

Come.  Visit.  Pull up a chair and stay a while. 😃

[Roland]

Visiting is easy. Leaving again is hard.

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I guess we just focused on different parts of the convo. <shrug>

Yeh, I figured, that's why I paraphrased what I was seeing; to figure out where we're talking past each other. No gaslighting intended My quip about launch titles was just for equivocating* highlighting mods and fixes as similar; the dev phase doesn't really matter for the point. If you're installing a 3rd party mod you feel is "fixing" the game, you'll quite naturally want that for everyone else as well. And the "not evidence to the contrary" might've been a bit cryptic..

 

* oops, "equivocate" seems to not mean what I thought it does, live and learn. I think "equate" might've worked, but whatever.

 

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I would love to see threads full of excited reporting about how much fun a mod is and why.

Sure, likewise; the mod threads themselves would be the place I'd post something like that, and there's plenty of happy customers there. If I want something fixed in vanilla... well, people just can't contain themselves when frustrated, me included (not often, but too often)

 

1 hour ago, Roland said:

No it wouldn't. The EULA clearly states that all derivative works are the sole property of The Fun Pimps

Umm; I'll take your word for it (for exactly this convo); but does that mean when Darkness Falls steals my data and sells it, I can GDPR the Pimps..? "Sole property" and all. And if the modder made it with lifted assets, would they be automatically responsible ..? (That's just random legal mumbo jumbo, mostly just saying, "I really am not a lawyer, and I shouldn't be talking about this" ... ).

 

I do agree with the rest of that; the required re-writing part is what practically protects TFP in the copyright-law side as well - you can't protect a "feature", so if the Pimps write their own version of a mod, it is entirely theirs.