What makes A20 differ from (very) early versions or "Why doesnt the game have the 'it' factor anymore"

[Maharin]

If 7DTD had the It factor then they'd have clown zombies.

 

[Ornias]

Another stealth problem is that the z's wont even spawn until you drop into the volume. I was a primarily stealth build since 12.5. Now I just run and gun, easier faster and honestly safer. 

[Rotor]

6 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

TL:DR;

On 10% loot, simgle player, I was in my 3rd bloodmoon and still was using bow/club/bone knife/pipe weapon with few bullets.

 

I am only giving my perspective as a new guy.  Any game I am usually slow, but I just wanted tomention that the above is me currently on my latest playthrough (add) with vanilla settings.  All I am saying is a new guys like me is where you wish you were heh.  Not sure if that makes it right or wrong, but it seems the game is not that far from where you want it without modding.  Unless you know all there is to  know, then tbh the game is no longer for you ( the proverbial you, maybe not you) unless you mod it.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Rotor (see edit history)

[Matt115]

3 hours ago, Maharin said:

If 7DTD had the It factor then they'd have clown zombies.

 

 

No. because there is no amusment park! 

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

oh sorry... I didn't want to go into it AGAIN since I already made two posts about it (and I know you read at least one of them back then :D):
1:

 

Ah, a thread from December. I don't even think my memory is good enough to remember arguments from a week ago 😉

 

[Rabbitslovecactus]

We need a blend of level up by doing with some points for perks only. So for example, level up by doing for stuff like ranged weapons, running, jumping, crafting, repairing. But then points can go towards healing faster, staying under water longer, unlocking things etc.. This will make the perfect balance. 

 

But yeah, I know I am beating a dead horse and the game is too far along for a changed like this to be made... The current point system works, but is artificial....

[eXSe]

I am and always will be on the team "immersive progression and leveling" as well as the survival part of the game, so this dumbing down and turning the game into the looter shooter is never going to sit well with me... though it's visually stunning and cites are head and shoulders above previous iterations I must say.

 

I feel the feral sense was a step in the right direction, one of the few and far between ones, but a welcome one nonetheless. Now just throw in one or two like this one in every new alpha and you'll be golden 🙂

 

Off topic - I need to ask this. Were light and sound you make ever a separate thing for detection, or am I tripping balls? I mean, if I'm in a brightly lit windowless room, but quiet, I should be undetected.

 

Oh, one more - if I wanted to do some cooking recipe and food buff tweaking, which files govern that?

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, eXSe said:

I am and always will be on the team "immersive progression and leveling" as well as the survival part of the game, so this dumbing down and turning the game into the looter shooter is never going to sit well with me... though it's visually stunning and cites are head and shoulders above previous iterations I must say.

 

I feel the feral sense was a step in the right direction, one of the few and far between ones, but a welcome one nonetheless. Now just throw in one or two like this one in every new alpha and you'll be golden 🙂

 

Off topic - I need to ask this. Were light and sound you make ever a separate thing for detection, or am I tripping balls? I mean, if I'm in a brightly lit windowless room, but quiet, I should be undetected.

 

AFAIK light was practically ignored for some alphas, at least ambient light. In A20 it gets added to sound. And this total then diminished by distance to the zombie as usual. So for example if you are near a zombie and totally silent but in the light he might not yet see you but even the sound of shooting a crossbow can wake him up.

 

That means that on a sunny day you have a harder time to stay in stealth in POIs as you are quite close to zombies in a room. And there the first shot or even trying to get closer to zombies so you can see them will often wake some up. But in the night (or less so in bad weather or in the wasteland or in shadowy corners) with some stealth perk points you are as totally invisible as in A19.

 

8 hours ago, eXSe said:

 

Oh, one more - if I wanted to do some cooking recipe and food buff tweaking, which files govern that?

 

Recipes, even cooking recipes, are all in recipes.xml

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

9 hours ago, eXSe said:

Were light and sound you make ever a separate thing for detection, or am I tripping balls?

I guess that depends on what you mean by detection; they seem somewhat separate for agro; I've ended up in plenty of slow-speed chases in the night, where a zed can hear me right next to it, but can't see me to attack. I take a step away, which makes a sound - they walk in to investigate the spot I practically still stand in, but they never agro me.

 

Sleepers for their normal check obey a line-of-sight for visibility checks while sound checks cause the investigative mode. For the attack-type sleeper volume check, I think it's a combination; but with those, it feels more dependent on your skill points than your actual stealth.

[Scyris]

I think all the ambush volumes are sort of a stopgap till wandering sleepers are put in, I'd assume these would wake up when they spawn, and walk around aimlessly like zombies outside in the world do, you can get a sneak attack on them if they don't notice you. Good luck though when the zombies have the best hearing i've ever seen them have, i've had zombies from 20 blocks outside a poi aggro from me crouching and just walking. Sound really needs to stop traveling outside the poi your in if its under a certain volume. For example any gunshot without a silencer? anything outside is gonna hear that, but with a silencer? prevents it from traveling outside the poi. Its really annoying when I am crouched just walking around and then something from 10-20 blocks outside the poi somehow heard me walking.

[AtomicUs5000]

For me, the "it" was lost once I felt dependent on the trader.
The trader's importance has kept increasing since A16 and now a playthrough can basically be a set of interactions and transactions.

[Matt115]

4 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

For me, the "it" was lost once I felt dependent on the trader.
The trader's importance has kept increasing since A16 and now a playthrough can basically be a set of interactions and transactions.

I think it is good and realistic.  Because after let say 10 years after zombie outbreake people would be depend so much on settlements.

 

I hope we will get "horizon zero dawn but 200 years after zombie outbreak " someday

Edited March 22, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[AtomicUs5000]

2 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

I think it is good and realistic.  Because after let say 10 years after zombie outbreake people would be depend so much on settlements

 
I can see that, but an apoc mogul game isn't my thing and it doesn't qualify as survival in my mind. It's like if Les Stroud showed us how to step out of the woods to go the nearest gas station for food. 
 I think what would really happen in my realistic game is the trader would get their head blown off and all their stuff taken.

[Matt115]

Just now, AtomicUs5000 said:

 
I can see that, but an apoc mogul game isn't my thing and it doesn't qualify as survival in my mind. It's like if Les Stroud showed us how to step out of the woods to go the nearest gas station for food. 
 I think what would really happen in my realistic game is the trader would get their head blown off and all their stuff taken.

nope. traders post are settlement just there is no diffrent  npc that trader unfortunatly. Food spoils quick right? so "freelancers " would be forced to work for settlements because food everyone else would be spoiled. So survivors would create small village in medival style. So huting animals and harvesting would just "additional" source of food because even raiding settlemts  would be pointless in long term. Why? because you would get food only for short period and numbe of settlements are not infinity. 

So in theory the most realistic get would be if you mixed 7DTD with medival dynasty

[AtomicUs5000]

1 minute ago, Matt115 said:

nope. traders post are settlement just there is no diffrent  npc that trader unfortunatly. Food spoils quick right? so "freelancers " would be forced to work for settlements because food everyone else would be spoiled. So survivors would create small village in medival style. So huting animals and harvesting would just "additional" source of food because even raiding settlemts  would be pointless in long term. Why? because you would get food only for short period and numbe of settlements are not infinity. 

So in theory the most realistic get would be if you mixed 7DTD with medival dynasty

 
lol, yeah it would after a short time. I'm all for it. No more trader. 
Really though, it's not the existence of the trader that gets to me. It's just that it's become too important and has taken away from every aspect of survival. You don't have to mine, you don't have to cut down trees, you don't have to farm, you don't have to hunt. You just need to find stuff and trade and if you can do that good enough, you can even skimp out on crafting anything. Sure, you could still do that stuff, but now it's just an optional hobby.

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

 
lol, yeah it would after a short time. I'm all for it. No more trader. 
Really though, it's not the existence of the trader that gets to me. It's just that it's become too important and has taken away from every aspect of survival. You don't have to mine, you don't have to cut down trees, you don't have to farm, you don't have to hunt. You just need to find stuff and trade and if you can do that good enough, you can even skimp out on crafting anything. Sure, you could still do that stuff, but now it's just an optional hobby.

Well but trader woudn't be alone. It would have secruity like sidroviwch have in one of the mods. Well specialisation is rly good - someone is mining, someone is farming someone is looting , and someone is cleaning roads from zombie. Like in medival dynasty. Well im horizon zero dawn some people are harvesting , some are traders etc, This is similiar. Well that's true doing quest for trader is effective  but... well mining was nerfed so much xd

[AtomicUs5000]

14 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well but trader woudn't be alone. It would have secruity like sidroviwch have in one of the mods. Well specialisation is rly good - someone is mining, someone is farming someone is looting , and someone is cleaning roads from zombie. Like in medival dynasty. Well im horizon zero dawn some people are harvesting , some are traders etc, This is similiar. Well that's true doing quest for trader is effective  but... well mining was nerfed so much xd

 
So you would join a settlement and be a miner for them... and still think the game is survival and has "it"?
Welp, I have nothing left to argue against the trader. On top of that, my arguments are pointless because clearly people enjoy this direction the game has gone. I am just someone who does see that the game has lost "it" and I've presented what I believe to be the root cause. There likely are several factors playing together, but if I had to pin it on the most impactful thing, this would be it. People can agree or disagree with my assessment, but in doing so, they should at least present something more qualifying.

[theFlu]

4 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

For me, the "it" was lost once I felt dependent on the trader.

Yeh, that's pretty big; there's no freedom in the sandbox anymore. Most of my game time is spent on running after the icon the trader chose for me; I have some choice, but realistically, That's where the goodies are. Unless going for something very specific via mining or wrenching.

[Viktoriusiii]

4 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

For me, the "it" was lost once I felt dependent on the trader.
The trader's importance has kept increasing since A16 and now a playthrough can basically be a set of interactions and transactions.

I loved the trader.
The problem is, that TFPs do not know how to balance properly.
First they overshoot the target, then undershoot it again... until the feature gets completely scrapped or reworked, because it is "not balancable" or "too complicated".

The trader could be SO MUCH MORE.
First only one person, then it becomes a settlement with quests and stuff until it can actually give you recruits to fight hordenight... or something like that.



But even without:

The problem is, that the trader is far and beyond the most effective playstyle. Farming quests is like 10x more efficient than anything else.

I think the trader should hold a much more rapidly changing stock with a smaller sortiment and quest should only be allowed like one per day or even every 3 days (with requirements for the next tier being lowered).
Right now all I do is questfarming until I need to build my funnelhordebase, only to continue questing.
Day 30 with all blue or purple T3 equipment is easily reachable, if you skill correctly.
I still want to argue with myself if I should really use the few shotgunshells I have at that point.
I want to be able to get my first own house going instead of barricading prefabs.
And I want it to be the first time I actually aproach the city, instead of it already being farmed empty.

[Hyperbolt]

11 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

 
So you would join a settlement and be a miner for them... and still think the game is survival and has "it"?
Welp, I have nothing left to argue against the trader. On top of that, my arguments are pointless because clearly people enjoy this direction the game has gone. I am just someone who does see that the game has lost "it" and I've presented what I believe to be the root cause. There likely are several factors playing together, but if I had to pin it on the most impactful thing, this would be it. People can agree or disagree with my assessment, but in doing so, they should at least present something more qualifying.

I was just thinking about this over the last days!  I also think the game has lost some of the gritty survival-immersion because of the traders. However, i am in no position to complain, im part of the problem too... I enjoy going on quests, and trading a ton of goods with them. 

But keep in mind, the trader is a totally optional thing, we technically never havecto visit them, or take any quests from them, so the solution on this "problem" would simply be to not get tempted by the extra rewards from doing quests. 

 

Ive thought about this alot, and theb compared to how i played pre-alpha 17.  When i entered a city, i would go to the nearest houses and start loot what i can grab. 

Now with quests, you go to a specific building in the city to loot that, because it benefits you more...

Sure, there are still end-of-dungeon loot rooms, many resource blocks(cement, cobble, stone and wood), and an overall higher amount of loot in the game nowadays, which is a bit hard to ignore. 

But the trader, once again, is a game element that can be completely ignored if one can control their temptations! 

 

Im also not a fan that quests refills houses with loot over and over... Yes, its a VERY good when playing on a public server, this way you will always have some place to loot! 

However in singleplayer, or with a few friends, my idea of a survival-feeling is that a city has limited stuff, so when everything is looted, youre kinda forced to either migrate elsewhere, or travel far away to loot more. 

[AtomicUs5000]

2 hours ago, Hyperbolt said:

I was just thinking about this over the last days!  I also think the game has lost some of the gritty survival-immersion because of the traders. However, i am in no position to complain, im part of the problem too... I enjoy going on quests, and trading a ton of goods with them. 

But keep in mind, the trader is a totally optional thing, we technically never havecto visit them, or take any quests from them, so the solution on this "problem" would simply be to not get tempted by the extra rewards from doing quests. 

 

Ive thought about this alot, and theb compared to how i played pre-alpha 17.  When i entered a city, i would go to the nearest houses and start loot what i can grab. 

Now with quests, you go to a specific building in the city to loot that, because it benefits you more...

Sure, there are still end-of-dungeon loot rooms, many resource blocks(cement, cobble, stone and wood), and an overall higher amount of loot in the game nowadays, which is a bit hard to ignore. 

But the trader, once again, is a game element that can be completely ignored if one can control their temptations! 

 

Im also not a fan that quests refills houses with loot over and over... Yes, its a VERY good when playing on a public server, this way you will always have some place to loot! 

However in singleplayer, or with a few friends, my idea of a survival-feeling is that a city has limited stuff, so when everything is looted, youre kinda forced to either migrate elsewhere, or travel far away to loot more. 

 
I avoided the trader until A19... at least until very late game.
Sure, it can still be optional, but the problem is you would be putting artificial hindrances on yourself because right now it is far easier to trade than to set yourself up with farming, streamlining your mining/materials factory, and bullet factory... especially solo. On top of that, the traders seem to eventually have those missing books you've been searching for (which are very powerful when the set is complete). There once was a time where collecting enough antibiotics was a top priority starting day 1. I don't even think about it anymore because you will get plenty without doubt from the trader.
 
The construction material stashes are second on my list for the most impactful contributor to the loss of "it." Some of them are over the top. There are a couple house attics that are loaded with enough cement to build an entire base. What is it even doing there? The houses aren't even under construction and if they were, who puts their remodeling supplies in the attic?
 
When bandits arrive, they should have bandits take over completed mission POIs as outposts. Then they repair it over time instead of POIs instantly resetting. At this point, the POI can become available as a bandit raid mission, or if they migrate, the POI becomes available for a regular mission again. It even helps explain why loot respawns in the world if you have that active. In this case, it is also fine to have loot rooms in mission POIs because it will take time for the bandits to replenish them.

[Hyperbolt]

Sadly, i have no alternative to not put up any artificial hindrances... You can try to set up base very far away from any trader(artificial hindrance), or never put points in BB or daring adventurer(artific. Hind.),  having fewer or no traders on the map with custom generation(art.hin).... Yeah im out of options regarding traders. 

 

I agree that there is an abundance of basebuilding materials in PoIs, but im guessing its there for those who do not like to spend days mining, but still want to be able to make a base? 

(i like mining, but i am not all players opinion xD) 

 

Its probably impossible to cater to all type of players in one game, so the fun pimps tries to make a compromise, so its up to us how we deal with it. 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

The trader should have limitations. I know none of these suggestions will ever be put in the game, because it is a casual game now. But I still wanna share them:

a) there should not be quests to find the traders. Especially not in the beginner quest.
b) it should not be open regularly or at least only have very limited times. Like Monday (day%7 = 1) only from 1pm-4pm, Tuesday only 7am-1PM
c) quest and stock needs to be quickly changing and he shouldn't always have quests (some days only a T1 Q, sometimes only 2 T4 quests)
d) we need more interactions out of him
e) he needs to be destructable. It should be like a base that we also need to protect, making us actually care for him and his survival.
f) a wandering trader wound be SO cool. So that he would wander between the different traderoutposts


but yeah. Limiting him is absolutely essential.

[AtomicUs5000]

7 minutes ago, Hyperbolt said:

Its probably impossible to cater to all type of players in one game, so the fun pimps tries to make a compromise, so its up to us how we deal with it. 

 

 
Absolutely and I 100% agree with the attempt to provide that for players. However, as Viktoriusiii mentioned, there is currently an imbalance that favors one method (the trader) over the others. There should always be some calculated decision to make depending on your current circumstances. There is no more mental stimulation. Got a problem? The trader is your one-stop solution shop.
 
An alternative to artificial hindrances might be modding. I wouldn't want to remove the traders entirely, though. Again, the problem isn't the existence of traders.

[meganoth]

In single player or co-op games the easiest change you can do to make the trader less important is simply to increase all trader prices.

 

This number is in the first line of traders.xml. Easy to change and then you don't need to artificially constrain yourself.

 

Sadly there is no single point to decrease quest xp. But you can decrease the quest money reward by incurring money inflation. Just increase buy AND sell prices by a common factor to create an inflation.

 

In other words, currently the first line of traders is:

 

<traders buy_markup="3" sell_markdown="0.2" quality_mod="0.4,8" currency_item="casinoCoin" >

 

Change it to

 

<traders buy_markup="6" sell_markdown="0.2" quality_mod="0.4,8" currency_item="casinoCoin" >

 

and the trader is double as expensive as before. Change it further to

 

<traders buy_markup="12" sell_markdown="0.4" quality_mod="0.4,8" currency_item="casinoCoin" >

 

and you decreased the inherent value of coins making quest rewards half as important while keeping the value of loot.

 

 

PS: If someone tries this, please tell me about the result, in my MP game I can't do this because my co-players like the trader as is.

Edited March 23, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)