Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[elektrohund]

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

Finally, with all that controversy about how women are depicted in games (of which Laura Croft was just one example) the gaming community has somehow someway seen a skyrocketing increase in girls and women over the same period of time.

 

That’s my point. It is just a small but loud minority who feel offended while the large majority play on without much of a care at all

 

Sexualization/objectification of women in video games have also decreased massively since the 90s, especially in fairly recent titles, at least in the west. I don't know how much this has actually contributed to welcoming women into gaming, but it probably helped.

Edited April 23, 2023 by elektrohund (see edit history)

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

Is this a joke? Because Laura Croft (or at least the non-modern Laura Croft character that TFP have paid homage to) has been the very definition of sexism in gaming for twenty years. The innate sexism of the character is almost certainly why the modern Tomb Raider games avoided the old character.

 

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/3/17/17128344/lara-croft-tomb-raider-history-controversy-breasts

https://pitjournal.unc.edu/2023/01/06/lara-croft-and-gaming-feminism-in-a-hyper-masculine-industry/

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20180314-why-lara-croft-is-no-feminist-role-model

 

EDIT: It is true that Laura Croft has also been seen as "empowering" because she is the player's avatar in a videogame, and that videogame is action-oriented, and she is female. But those reasons (or excuses?) for her being seen as "empowering" fall by the wayside if that character is only one among many that can be chosen, and the others are not big-busted, midriff-showing females - in this case the avatar's only defining characteristics are that it's a big busted, midriff-showing female.

 

Look, TFP can replicate that character if they want, but what they can't do is replicate that character and also avoid all of the cultural baggage and debate about sexism that surrounds that character.

 

TFP made that bed and now they have to lie in it.

 

(Also, this is coming from someone who likes the outfit, and also likes both midriffs and breasts, regardless of whether they're bare and/or big.)

 

EDIT 2: You know what would have avoided this whole problem? If the clothing on the desert female was the same as the desert male. The female could have the same body type, same bust size, everything, but just not have been dressed in short shorts and a shirt that covered nothing but her breasts. This actually seems to be easier then the clothing option on her now. Why are we all not focusing on why TFP deliberately chose to do more work to make the clothing different on the female?

 

Good post, but sorry, EDIT 2 is posing a very uninteresting question because doh, it was to make an obvious homage to Lara Croft. If this was just a random female figure you would have a point.

 

I would have given the artist extra points if he had made the male dressed like Lara as well, not for fear of repercussion but exactly to lampoon the image of Lara while still paying homage to it.

 

 

[Matt115]

10 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

 

Hey there Kanaverum. For some odd reason (maybe because of Rolands responses to me that seemed to put words in my mouth), people have the absolutely incorrect misconception that I have a problem with big boobs and Trader Jen. I never said anything like that. In fact I said the opposite. Quotes of what I said: 

 

• "Let me make something absolutely clear 'kay? I absolutely DO NOT mind a game having hottie outfits for female characters in games. "
• "I also don't mind the only female trader in the game being a cutie called Jen who flirts with me from time to time."
• "ALL of the characters were ah-maaaazing! INCLUDING THE TOMB RAIDER ONE. Yes, you heard right. Including the busty tomb raider! Although I personally think she'd look even sexier if her chest were a bit more natural and the flesh was relaxed a bit so that they don't look like two balloons about to pop. Just a wee bit! "

 

 

I never once criticized a female having big breasts. 

 

The only critique I ever had that was linked to the female character was not about the character itself, but how and when it was presented to the community. That I would have appreciated if devs had presented it alongside other female options to give a more balanced overview. By presenting it on it's own after a slew of cool male characters, it just sent the wrong message to the community.

 

The only critique of the character boobs themselves was from an artistic perspective, more about how they were modeled. They didn't look natural being so round and hard looking. Breast flesh has flexibility to it, that's all. 

 

 

Thanks for trying to be supportive Star, but I'm afraid there have been some misunderstandings:

Let me make this clear: 

• I don't have a problem with big breasts. Never did. The character is not the issue here. 
• I don't have a problem with Trader Jen. Never did. She's adorable!
• I don't have a problem with Lara Croft. Never did. For some reason Roland made his own assumptions that I did and hence his messages convey that

 

All I want is for devs to remember to consider female players in the way they conduct themselves and how they present content. That's all. 

So: there is not problem about model but with what Devs was talking during stream?

 

6 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

Is this a joke? Because Laura Croft (or at least the non-modern Laura Croft character that TFP have paid homage to) has been the very definition of sexism in gaming for twenty years. The innate sexism of the character is almost certainly why the modern Tomb Raider games avoided the old character.

 

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/3/17/17128344/lara-croft-tomb-raider-history-controversy-breasts

https://pitjournal.unc.edu/2023/01/06/lara-croft-and-gaming-feminism-in-a-hyper-masculine-industry/

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20180314-why-lara-croft-is-no-feminist-role-model

 

EDIT: It is true that Laura Croft has also been seen as "empowering" because she is the player's avatar in a videogame, and that videogame is action-oriented, and she is female. But those reasons (or excuses?) for her being seen as "empowering" fall by the wayside if that character is only one among many that can be chosen, and the others are not big-busted, midriff-showing females - in this case the avatar's only defining characteristics are that it's a big busted, midriff-showing female.

 

Look, TFP can replicate that character if they want, but what they can't do is replicate that character and also avoid all of the cultural baggage and debate about sexism that surrounds that character.

 

TFP made that bed and now they have to lie in it.

 

(Also, this is coming from someone who likes the outfit, and also likes both midriffs and breasts, regardless of whether they're bare and/or big.)

 

EDIT 2: You know what would have avoided this whole problem? If the clothing on the desert female was the same as the desert male. The female could have the same body type, same bust size, everything, but just not have been dressed in short shorts and a shirt that covered nothing but her breasts. This actually seems to be easier then the clothing option on her now. Why are we all not focusing on why TFP deliberately chose to do more work to make the clothing different on the female?

To be honest - not only Lara Croft but... most of characters from this period - Duke Nukem, serious sam etc. i know this will be shocking for some people but look on wikipedia about Billy Herrington. And check in which period of time he was popular and why  this explain a lot to be honest and male character was definiton of sexism too.

Why TFP decided for this:

1. 7DTD became streamers oriented - this mean streamers can joke about that etc. you know make content on Twitch ;

i will copy Madmole comment about zombie variants: 

 

"'d be ok with tint variations.

It's not that we also wouldn't want to see more zombies, it's a matter of it would delay gold even further and we're focusing on going gold.

It's one of those things that would not move the needle on sales even .01% too. New customers don't care if we add more zombies. I'm not that interested in more zombies without new behaviors. I wrote up a bunch of great zombie designs with behaviors but coders don't have time so more zombies or variations is just meh, and doesn't get us closer to gold or more sales so selling the idea is impossible, as well as we have to make room in the memory footprint for all these new bandits yet.

At best we could add a few and put them into specific biomes so that memory can handle it, and it would still be the same problem, repetitive in each biome.

Maybe we can leverage the character system to add a new zombie head to a player outfit and make some survivor zombies easily using the already in memory character outfits for some tougher armored zombies. These are more draw calls than the current zombies though and bigger textures etc and wouldn't be the best use of resources. Ideally we could start the next game from scratch using the system. I think the skeleton is different too though so animations become a problem. It's complex and like I said, it isn't moving the needle at all on sales, it just makes you veterans happy.

Maybe we can use it for the next game if planned from the beginning."

 

as you see- TFP focus mostly on what will make 7dtd sells better. People watch streamers and buy games in which streamers play

 

2. They want to make variation about Fallout and Mad Max - this is not longer zombie game art style but just generic post apo art style: visible cut off from Walkind dead, l4d2 , contagion,  No more room in hell etc

3. Well - as wrote above - They decided too make stereotypical look because that's how are looking character in West post apo style - Rage is good example where every character is just stereotype.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[dlaw]

This is hell. I normally read this thread in the morning time to see what cool things people are talking/asking about for 7D’s. 
 

I wasted 20 minutes of my life today.  A presumably 50 year old grandmother arguing about a fake video game character. It’s not real. What is life man. 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, dlaw said:

This is hell. I normally read this thread in the morning time to see what cool things people are talking/asking about for 7D’s. 
 

I wasted 20 minutes of my life today.  A presumably 50 year old grandmother arguing about a fake video game character. It’s not real. What is life man. 

 

I'm lucky, I only wasted 10 seconds reading yours. 😉

 

Seriously, for any topic there are millions of people not interested in that topic and I don't much care to know what topic forum poster X doesn't care for. The internet is stacked to the hilt with uninteresting topics for each individual, if you can't filter for your interests you should not go there.

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Mister Forgash]

I think it's very important for all of us to remember that we are definitely only getting 1 character model per gender, so if you don't like being a busty attractive women that'll win the heart of many droolin' guys, or a totally ripped chad that can sharpen a machete on his abs, well then you're just out of luck. Don't know what to tell you. It'll be bad though, because now that we've seen the two playable characters, we can rest assured, player art team will be going on vacation and wiping their hands of this mess, they did their job, done.

.. But being real for just a second, I bet there will likely be a -few- options for your character's body type, and all these people mortified by the female's bust will probably never select her model, nor play with friends that do.

[Roland]

Until maybe they realize that if they look down in the game they won’t see any boobs, navel, legs, or even feet…

[zztong]

14 hours ago, Slasher said:

if i hear "Laura" croft one more time i think im gonna SCREAM!

 

Ah, at first I didn't understand. So it is Lara Croft. I admit I was oblivious to the spelling. (I think maybe I've seen one movie.)

[khzmusik]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Good post, but sorry, EDIT 2 is posing a very uninteresting question because doh, it was to make an obvious homage to Lara Croft. If this was just a random female figure you would have a point.

 

I would have given the artist extra points if he had made the male dressed like Lara as well, not for fear of repercussion but exactly to lampoon the image of Lara while still paying homage to it.

 

 

 

I would 100% love to see the Laura Croft clothing on the male as well.

 

But my point stands. TFP put more time and effort into making a player character look like the player character from a different game who they knew was controversial because it is considered sexist. (And if they didn't know this then they didn't know enough about the character to do an "homage" to it.)

 

They can do that. In fact I'm perfectly fine with them doing that, I like boobies. But what they can't do is put this "homage" in the game and then deny any controversy.

 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

No joke. The new tomb raiders have plenty of Laura Croft sex appeal. The original tomb raiders were rereleased and not…reduced. The movies were true to her original look and form with the newest movie looking more like the modern version but not necessarily toned down. 
 

Finally, with all that controversy about how women are depicted in games (of which Laura Croft was just one example) the gaming community has somehow someway seen a skyrocketing increase in girls and women over the same period of time.
 

That’s my point. It is just a small but loud minority who feel offended while the large majority play on without much of a care at all. It makes for some wry humor and head shaking and that’s about it for most people. And honestly most want their fantasy time to be heroic and larger than life rather than ho hum and normal looking. 
 

So sure TFP made the character and made her extremely easy on the eyes and so now have to live with the unavoidable repercussions that someone will always feel offended about something. Remember that these guys are artists. They probably live for creating something that turns out to be provocative. 

 

This is a completely ridiculous reply. Every single sentence in it is factually incorrect.

• The original Tomb Raider character intentionally was "reduced" in the 2012+ video games (if you're talking about breast size, but also in terms of showing skin - Lara Croft no longer wears shorts or shows her midriff). Ironically the 2012+ version of Lara Croft looks more like the male version of the 7D2D character.
• The movies followed suit. Alicia Vikander looks nothing like Angelina Jolie and the "sex appeal" was intentionally toned down. And it was controversial. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/bizarre-tomb-raider-review-slammed-a-lack-of-curves-and-not-an-ounce-of-sex-appeal/G5IY3CTGXVP5M3QA7SLLHOIHXI/
• As I posted in a link, the gaming community has been nearly half women for a very long time. But even accepting your "skyrocketing increase" premise, the increase of women in gaming came at the same time as the "reduction" of Lara Croft. It didn't happen "somehow someway" - according to your own arguments, it happened because video game companies thought twice about producing sexist characters like her.
• It is not a "small but loud minority" who believe her character is sexist. Her designers and marketing material described her as a "cyber sex symbol" back when she was released in the 90's. Literally everyone has acknowledged that she was intentionally designed to appeal to the "male gaze" (even her defenders). I've yet to see a single person say otherwise. Plus if you were right, then her character would never have been changed to be less cartoonish - video game companies (especially AAA game companies) don't do that unless there are good financial reasons for doing so, and a "small but loud minority" does not translate to a good financial reason.

Once again - TFP have every right to put a 1990's Lara Croft looking character in the game. I'm a dude and my gaze is male, so I don't have a problem with it. But they cannot do that and also deny the controversy that does now, and has always, surrounded that character.

 

They should just acknowledge that they don't care about being sexist. It would be a much more respectable and honest response than what you posted.

 

(EDIT: This whole topic should probably be moved to the "overflow" thread.)

Edited April 23, 2023 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[Gronal]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

I'm lucky, I only wasted 10 seconds reading yours. 😉

 

Seriously, for any topic there are millions of people not interested in that topic and I don't much care to know what topic forum poster X doesn't care for. The internet is stacked to the hilt with uninteresting topics for each individual, if you can't filter for your interests you should not go there.

 

 

 

To be honest the fact that the discussion is allowed to meander so loosely in a thread named "Dev diary" is getting a bit tiresome at this point.
It was my understanding that's what the A21 discussion overflow thread should be for. Many of us come here for any bits of info that have been released and it's annoying having to read through so much I don't care about in order to not miss something.
Is this a dev diary or a general a21 discussion thread? Of 242 pages, I would optimistically say 10% of it is relevant to be included under the title "dev diary"
If it were up to me I'd have this thread locked so only actual information can be posted by devs and mods, and everything else should go in its relevant thread

Edited April 23, 2023 by Gronal (see edit history)

[Mister Forgash]

I just wanted to add one too-
.. For me, it doesn't really fit thematically that there'd be a zombie competent enough to wield a weapon, so I propose-
The "rebar-zombie" The victim of a cruel accident, or perhaps the duke's bandits, this zombie has been run through with a few pieces of rebar - Probably in the arms, giving them increased range and damage [Maybe bleed chance].. If the designer saw through to put some bars through their chest also, perhaps there'd be a chance they get a no-animation required [lesser?]attack, just to suggest you were struck by a piece of metal even without the zombie trying.

[zztong]

10 hours ago, katarynna said:

I really think part of the issue with the desert woman's outfit may be heavily influenced by where you live.

 

I grew up in Tampa, Florida and saw women in similar clothing everywhere i went. Malls, restaurants, amusement parks, mini golf.... whereever.

 

I look at her and don't really see a skimpy or overly sexy outfit. I see a hot weather outfit.  Not even a super cute hot weather outfit.... just something many women and girls would wear.

 

This makes sense to me. It rings of people making practical choices. I, personally, don't see my survivalist dressing to go shopping on a hot day, so I'm unlikely to select options along those lines. I'm more likely to select an appearance that doesn't suggest my character will experience painful sun burns after 3 days of exposure to desert sun. This would have me thinking back to my military experiences and recalling the more practical choices women made for being out in the field.

 

But a game can be for escapism as much as it can be fore immersion, so I certainly wouldn't object if others were drawn to, and made, impractical selections entirely for the entertainment value. Whatever makes the game fun.

 

If I understand KatsPurr, I believe she is only advocating for (1) choice and (2) some more thought in how Dev streams (marketing) presents options to women. No doubt, TFP has (1) choice already in mind. Maybe (2) is food for thought, not manufactured outrage, being "woke", or any other imagined sinister motivation. Sales to women does affect the bottom line. Would anyone argue marketing has no affect on sales?

 

 

[Roland]

16 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

 

*scratches head* I'm clearly not communicating myself very well because it feels like what I'm trying to convey is not being heard or understood. It's like we speak different languages or are in two different parallel universes or something. It can happen to the best of us.

 

Anyhow, I've said what I wanted to say and hopefully my message was understood by someone out there. Thanks for the discussion folks. Regardless of the kerfuffle, I'm still MEGA SUPER DUPER excited and hyped for A21. Let's doooo thiiiiiis! 

 

 

 

 

Sorry if I got into the weeds. Thanks for your perspective and I hope you will be pleased as more models and outfits are shown. 

1 hour ago, khzmusik said:

This is a completely ridiculous reply. Every single sentence in it is factually incorrect.

I’ll defer to your research then. I’m speaking from my own perception of the last 20 years and my own play through a of the Tomb Raider games. You most likely have stronger handle on the actual facts while I’m just giving opinion so I’m certainly open to the chance that I’m wrong. 

[khzmusik]

40 minutes ago, Roland said:

I’ll defer to your research then. I’m speaking from my own perception of the last 20 years and my own play through a of the Tomb Raider games. You most likely have stronger handle on the actual facts while I’m just giving opinion so I’m certainly open to the chance that I’m wrong. 

 

I would say "fair enough"... but seriously, you were completely unaware that gamers and the gaming industry have been arguing about how she's a sexist character since the time she was introduced? I find that hard to believe.

 

I'm not a huge Tomb Raider fan (I have one of the 90's games on CD ROM somewhere, and I own and finished the 2013 game, but that's about it). And even I knew that she is the first character that people bring up when talking about sexism in video games.

 

And if The Fun Pimps didn't know about all the controversy, then they don't know enough to put an homage to her in the game. Especially not an homage to the 90's version of the character, which was almost universally considered sexist, and not the modern/reboot version.

 

If they want to own the controversy, then that's fine. They could say that they don't care about sexism (which is probably true, most people don't). They could say that the Lara Croft character is still empowering to women, despite (or even because of) the fact that her body was designed to be sexy to men. They could say that they know she's a sexist character, but they have nostalgia for that character so decided to include her in the game anyway. All of these are fine with me.

 

What they can't do is deny that it's controversial at all, which is what you were doing..

 

(EDIT: I also have a lot of unpleasant memories about how self-described "gamers" complained about the 2013 version. "OMG the PC police got rid of the 80085!" It was the most annoying outpouring of entitled crybabies that I'd seen at the time. I do not want TFP to be attracting those sorts of idiots.)

Edited April 23, 2023 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, khzmusik said:

• As I posted in a link, the gaming community has been nearly half women for a very long time. But even accepting your "skyrocketing increase" premise, the increase of women in gaming came at the same time as the "reduction" of Lara Croft. It didn't happen "somehow someway" - according to your own arguments, it happened because video game companies thought twice about producing sexist characters like her.

I'm not sure this is accurate, though I admit that's based on only what I've seen and not on any actual data.  But to me, this seems backwards.  It seems to me that the change was more women playing video games and so video game development changed because their audience was changing.  Not that video games changed and because of that, their audience changed.  There really isn't a reason to change the video games if your audience is the same.  It happens the other way around, where if your audience changes, developers need to consider changing their games to bring in the money from the new audience.

 

From my experience, I think women really started to get into gaming around late 90s/early 2000s.  Some of course were into it long before that, but that point seemed to be where things started changing.  Now, when WoW was released in 2004, you had a lot of women gamers playing it.  I doubt that game alone had an impact in women gamers but I do think it played a part.  I honestly doubt Tomb Raider had any real part in it.  You also started to see a lot more "casual" games starting to come out at this time and at least to begin with, these were often the introduction to gaming that many women chose.  To be clear, I'm not suggesting women are more casual gamers than men and I enjoy various casual games myself.  It is just that women tended to get into gaming through those more than FPS or RPG games.

 

Keeping in mind that RPG back in the 80s/90s and even 2000s, but mostly 80s/90s, was considered very much a "geek" thing.  You had a bunch of "geek" guys who liked it but women were very much not interested in it.  This translated from tabletop to the video games and I think that is where WoW really played a role in getting more interest, in everyone and not just women, in playing RPGs.  And every female character was big up top in that game, so that clearly wasn't the concern at the time.

 

That change to how video games and RPGs were viewed by people, including women, was a big part in how women got more interested in gaming.  Add in the increase in casual games and you saw an increase in women playing video games.  It changed from a geeky thing to do into something everyone does.  That perception change was really the main catalyst, imo.

 

As far as the newer Lara Croft games, I never even noticed that the character was changed to look any specific way.  She was different, yes.  But I didn't really think of her as being made differently due to some image they are trying to portray.  This discussion mentioning the change to her was really the first I've noticed that there is an actual change in that direction.  I wonder how many others really didn't pay the change any mind.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[khzmusik]

3 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I'm not sure this is accurate, though I admit that's based on only what I've seen and not on any actual data.  But to me, this seems backwards.  It seems to me that the change was more women playing video games and so video game development changed because their audience was changing.  Not that video games changed and because of that, their audience changed.  There really isn't a reason to change the video games if your audience is the same.  It happens the other way around, where if your audience changes, developers need to consider changing their games to bring in the money from the new audience.

 

From my experience, I think women really started to get into gaming around late 90s/early 2000s.  Some of course were into it long before that, but that point seemed to be where things started changing.  Now, when WoW was released in 2004, you had a lot of women gamers playing it.  I doubt that game along had an impact in women gamers but I do think it played a part.  I honestly doubt Tomb Raider had any real part in it.  You also started to see a lot more "casual" games starting to come out at this time and at least to begin with, these were often the introduction to gaming that many women chose.  To be clear, I'm not suggesting women are more casual gamers than men and I enjoy various casual games myself.  It is just that women tended to get into gaming through those more than FPS or RPG games.

 

Keeping in mind that RPG back in the 80s/90s and even 2000s, but mostly 80s/90s, was considered very much a "geek" thing.  You had a bunch of "geek" guys who liked it but women were very much not interested in it.  This translated from tabletop to the video games and I think that is where WoW really played a role in getting more interest, in everyone and not just women, in playing RPGs.  And every female character was big up top in that game, so that clearly wasn't the concern at the time.

 

That change to how video games and RPGs were viewed by people, including women, was a big part in how women got more interested in gaming.  Add in the increase in casual games and you saw an increase in women playing video games.  It changed from a geeky thing to do into something everyone does.  That perception change was really the main catalyst, imo.

 

As far as the newer Lara Croft games, I never even noticed that the character was changed to look any specific way.  She was different, yes.  But I didn't really think of her as being made differently due to some image they are trying to portray.  This discussion mentioning the change to her was really the first I've noticed that there is an actual change in that direction.  I wonder how many others really didn't pay the change any mind.

 

It's probably a chicken-and-egg situation. Some women got into video games for whatever reasons. Game companies changed their games in order to make sure they didn't alienate those women. As a result more women got into video games. And so on.

 

Similar things happened with tabletop RPGs like D&D. When I played it, in the 80's, not a single girl was interested in it. Now it's something like 40% female players. Along with that came a discussion about chainmail bikinis and the like.

[Obsessive Compulsive]

The average cup size in america is a C. This is clearly modeled to match that. The average in Britain is C to a D so it is larger than this.

There is an old saying that anything more than a wine glass is a waste. Those are wine glass ta ta. They match her hand size which if you study art development and modelling, is spot on to the average female. Your breast size often develops in line with your hand size. If you are tiny or dont eat any proper fats while you develop, then the body has nothing to put towards breast tissue. This is why highly athletic women do not develop the same. Their body fat is too low and we have women obsessed with looking like boys now, not eating. Its beyond weird.

What people are missing is that is a sports bra. The character model actually exemplifies her bust simply by wearing that cut of shirt. Cover up the cleavage and people would not notice.

5 hours ago, Gronal said:

To be honest the fact that the discussion is allowed to meander so loosely in a thread named "Dev diary" is getting a bit tiresome at this point.
It was my understanding that's what the A21 discussion overflow thread should be for. Many of us come here for any bits of info that have been released and it's annoying having to read through so much I don't care about in order to not miss something.
Is this a dev diary or a general a21 discussion thread? Of 242 pages, I would optimistically say 10% of it is relevant to be included under the title "dev diary"
If it were up to me I'd have this thread locked so only actual information can be posted by devs and mods, and everything else should go in its relevant thread

If it upsets you this much, why not stop reading it? Is someone forcing you with tooth picks keeping your eyes open? You can also check the post is a mod or admin and skip through to those, OR, do something else since it is a forum and people are allowed to speak their mind in forums. Strange to demand rules to how people speak. They are still discussing a21 and this is an over flow forum. Pretty sure the point is for people to talk about a21 WITH devs included, not just them speaking to us. They already do that

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Obsessive Compulsive said:

If it upsets you this much, why not stop reading it? Is someone forcing you with tooth picks keeping your eyes open? You can also check the post is a mod or admin and skip through to those, OR, do something else since it is a forum and people are allowed to speak their mind in forums. Strange to demand rules to how people speak. They are still discussing a21 and this is an over flow forum. Pretty sure the point is for people to talk about a21 WITH devs included, not just them speaking to us. They already do that

Just so you know, all of the last few pages were all in the dev diary and moved to here this morning. I doubt he would have complained if the conversation started here. 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

Just so you know, all of the last few pages were all in the dev diary and moved to here this morning. I doubt he would have complained if the conversation started here. 

Ah! fair enough. Good point

[meganoth]

22 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

I would 100% love to see the Laura Croft clothing on the male as well.

 

But my point stands.

 

You mean the point I commented "Good post" on? Notice I was only saying your EDIT2 asks a senseless question because there is a very obvious answer.

 

22 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

 

TFP put more time and effort into making a player character look like the player character from a different game who they knew was controversial because it is considered sexist. (And if they didn't know this then they didn't know enough about the character to do an "homage" to it.)

 

They can do that. In fact I'm perfectly fine with them doing that, I like boobies. But what they can't do is put this "homage" in the game and then deny any controversy.

 

Now this is another point where you now might be shooting for the wrong target. Who from TFP did deny any controversy? Or commented at all (yet)?

 

 

22 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

This is a completely ridiculous reply. Every single sentence in it is factually incorrect.

• The original Tomb Raider character intentionally was "reduced" in the 2012+ video games (if you're talking about breast size, but also in terms of showing skin - Lara Croft no longer wears shorts or shows her midriff). Ironically the 2012+ version of Lara Croft looks more like the male version of the 7D2D character.
• The movies followed suit. Alicia Vikander looks nothing like Angelina Jolie and the "sex appeal" was intentionally toned down. And it was controversial. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/bizarre-tomb-raider-review-slammed-a-lack-of-curves-and-not-an-ounce-of-sex-appeal/G5IY3CTGXVP5M3QA7SLLHOIHXI/
• As I posted in a link, the gaming community has been nearly half women for a very long time. But even accepting your "skyrocketing increase" premise, the increase of women in gaming came at the same time as the "reduction" of Lara Croft. It didn't happen "somehow someway" - according to your own arguments, it happened because video game companies thought twice about producing sexist characters like her.
• It is not a "small but loud minority" who believe her character is sexist. Her designers and marketing material described her as a "cyber sex symbol" back when she was released in the 90's. Literally everyone has acknowledged that she was intentionally designed to appeal to the "male gaze" (even her defenders). I've yet to see a single person say otherwise. Plus if you were right, then her character would never have been changed to be less cartoonish - video game companies (especially AAA game companies) don't do that unless there are good financial reasons for doing so, and a "small but loud minority" does not translate to a good financial reason.

Once again - TFP have every right to put a 1990's Lara Croft looking character in the game. I'm a dude and my gaze is male, so I don't have a problem with it. But they cannot do that and also deny the controversy that does now, and has always, surrounded that character.

 

They should just acknowledge that they don't care about being sexist. It would be a much more respectable and honest response than what you posted.

 

(EDIT: This whole topic should probably be moved to the "overflow" thread.)

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kazgrel]

TIL a tank top and short shorts are "controversial" 🙄

[Callum123456789]

Who knows maybe we are upon the era of the clotheless humans? Maybe wearing clothes will be offensive in the next 50 years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Callum123456789 (see edit history)

[khzmusik]

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

Now this is another point where you now might be shooting for the wrong target. Who from TFP did deny any controversy? Or commented at all (yet)?

 

Right here:

  

On 4/22/2023 at 7:33 PM, Roland said:

Like I said, Laura Croft has been in public view for about 20 years now. Both male and female gamers are familiar with her and nobody I've heard of is creeped out by her or feels she's a shot across the bow of female identity and self-worth. We would any discussion leading to the dev stream end in them thinking this model which is completely on par with Laura Croft would alienate anyone? I really don't think it does other than a very few that in my opinion could not be planned for.

[...]

Just because I think your expectations are off and your sense that a large portion of females have been creeped out by Laura Croft all these years is wrong doesn't mean I don't think you shouldn't post your opinions. I admit that there is a huge sex-factor discrepancy between the male desert costume and the female desert costume and that a woman would be a fool to wear something like that costume in the desert among virus-spreading zombies. Laura Crofts outfit is equally ridiculous for what she does. But I don't think that it alienates most women and girls.

 

Do you think Roland is not a representative of TFP on these forums?

 

And those statements absolutely are denying that there was any significant controversy around the character, especially among women or girls. All it takes is a passing familiarity with Lara Croft to know that he's wrong, and that's what I wanted to point out.

 

But I won't say any more about this. I'm not a woman or girl, I'm not a feminist, and I don't really care about whether they have a character in the game that is obviously designed to be ogled by men like me.

 

I am upset mainly because it's a legitimate criticism, and if TFP respond to it by burying their heads in the sand, or gaslighting people into believing it isn't legitimate, then it's going to eventually become a game that I can't recommend to anyone I know. It's my favorite game - and since I'm also a modder, it's also a huge part of my creative outlet - and I don't want that to happen.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

Right here:

  

 

Do you think Roland is not a representative of TFP on these forums?

 

Not anymore. You might have missed that he retired from the job and Crator Creator now is the super moderator

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[khzmusik]

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Not anymore. You might have missed that Crator Creator now has that job and is the super moderator

 

 

 

I absolutely did miss that. I knew Crator Creator was a mod but thought Roland was still the lead moderator on these forums.

 

Obviously I should have directed my criticisms to Roland and not TFP.