Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[bdubyah]

1 minute ago, Riamus said:

It can only help them to do better...

Better to who, exactly? The few people who cared to come cry about it? Come on now, this type of stuff has to stop. It is a game, people.

[Jost Amman]

18 minutes ago, KatsPurr said:

Exactly THIS. And also the utter lack of consideration of how female players might feel: "Wow really? So this is what we got as a female character model? A sex object? Is this all we are to the devs? Are we not considered to be just as valuable and respected players?"

It's not utter lack of consideration! It's just that...

Spoiler

[Riamus]

13 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

Better to who, exactly? The few people who cared to come cry about it? Come on now, this type of stuff has to stop. It is a game, people.

If a dev studio is not trying to cater specifically to men and wants to include women, then knowing about issues related to that helps *them* do better in their efforts.  So it is better for the dev studio.  If they really don't care, then that is different, but I don't believe that is the case.

 

I doubt you'd like it for people to dismiss your feelings on a given subject just because "it's a game".  Pick any topic you have started about the game where you criticized something about the game.  I'm sure you'd feel you have the right to say what you said on the topic even if others disagree or don't care about it.  People have the right to voice their opinions.  There isn't anything wrong with that as long as it isn't done in a trolling or inflammatory way.  You don't have to agree with them, but there's no reason to try and shut them up.  I personally don't really care about how the female characters look.  I will sometimes play female characters in games, especially where I think there will be a different experience (usually certain RPGs), but a game like this isn't one of those.  I'll only ever play the male character, so it doesn't matter what the female character looks like.  But just because I don't really care doesn't mean it's bad that others do care.  I do feel it's overreacting a bit, but I also see the point.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

22 hours ago, HB_H4wk said:

I was trying to help those that forget about our modding community that were complaining about no new zombies yet. Sorry I didn't realize they were from A15 but at least it's something. I think there are other Zombie mods out there so..

... People play video games to immerse themselves in their player. To roleplay. 

 

Male characters tend to be buff and muscular, female characters tend to be thin and big breasted.

 

Is not new, and certainly not wrong.  These are physical ideals that most people have. 

 

I'm sure there may be one or two people in the universe who want to play as a genetic mutation created by inbreeding, but we are definitely not the norm and I am not opposed to a company catering to the masses.

 

 This entire woke conversation is stupid.

 

I'm glad the pimps are not catering to the 0.001% that seem to complain the most. 

 

Besides, if I recall correctly, the game is set after a nuclear war and then after a zombie apocalypse, so the people who would have survived would most likely be in great shape. 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Guppycur (see edit history)

[Riamus]

1 minute ago, Guppycur said:

... People play video games to immerse themselves in their player. To roleplay. 

 

Male characters tend to be buff and muscular, female characters tend to be thin and big breasted.

 

Is not new, and certainly not wrong.  These are physical ideals that most people have. 

 

I'm sure there may be one or two people in the universe who want to play as a genetic mutation created by inbreeding, but we are definitely not the norm and I am not opposed to a company catering to the masses.

 

 This entire woke conversation is stupid.

 

I'm glad the pimps are not catering to the 0.001% that seem to complain the most. 

 

Physical ideals vary from place to place.  Some places being heavier is the ideal and some places being a stick figure is ideal.  For most, it is somewhere in between.  Even talk of "ideal" is loaded and is really not accurate when used as it is subjective.  Everyone has their own opinion on what is ideal and that can vary greatly.  Just because games are made in a certain way doesn't mean they have to be.  I would prefer my character look closer to me than being "buff and muscular".  There is a reason people love character creation in games that give them full control over how their character looks rather than being limited to some "ideal" choices.  People do like creating monstrosities for characters and also like creating realistic characters who look a way that isn't "ideal" to others.

 

As far as woke... I am certainly opposed to that movement, but I don't consider this to be that.  Perhaps the original post on the topic, but not subsequent posts.  Asking for clothing on female characters is different from asking for females to be made all powerful and males to be weak and inferior.  Very different topic.

[bdubyah]

43 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Asking for clothing on female characters is different from asking for females to be made all powerful and males to be weak and inferior.

And they've already said that is likely the only outfit like that, and that all the others more closely mirror the male versions. Yet people get so hung up on one. single. outfit. I'd be willing to bet these offended people will end up even using that outfit in game once it arrives. Lol.

 

Of course, A22 will likely be delayed now thanks to these 2-3 overly-sensitive people. 😂

Edited April 22, 2023 by bdubyah (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

4 minutes ago, Riamus said:

As far as woke... I am certainly opposed to that movement, but I don't consider this to be that.

I agree on this. She made her point clear and I can understand where she's coming from.

 

I hope she finds out that in A21 there's plenty of choice for women outfits, but I'm worried that the gender discussion could lead to much wider issues like we can see happening in some other games. I'm old school, so for me there's man and women, so I'd cover all human genotypes without a doubt. But then you'd have people coming here complaining that they're not represented, and the devs would need to cater to them too. So, where would this end? I hope it's not necessary and that, at least, the female players can find what they're looking for in this game.

[Mister Forgash]

.. The more I think about it, the more I realize how wrong I've been. I'm not happy about the new character models for A22. For a little bit, I believed I would be, but now this recent discussion has opened my eyes that the ripped male model threatens my body positivity. We need to remove body fat from the female's chest and add it to the male's mid-section and everything will be fixed!

[Guppycur]

35 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

And they've already said that is likely the only outfit like that, and that all the others more closely mirror the male versions. Yet people get so hung up on one. single. outfit. I'd be willing to bet this offended people will end up even using that outfit in game once it arrives. Lol.

 

Of course, A22 will likely be delayed now thanks to these 2-3 overly-sensitive people. 😂

What doesn't make the sense to me is the acknowledgment that different people have different tastes, but then they go after the other person's taste. Doesn't make any sense.

[Riamus]

42 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I agree on this. She made her point clear and I can understand where she's coming from.

 

I hope she finds out that in A21 there's plenty of choice for women outfits, but I'm worried that the gender discussion could lead to much wider issues like we can see happening in some other games. I'm old school, so for me there's man and women, so I'd cover all human genotypes without a doubt. But then you'd have people coming here complaining that they're not represented, and the devs would need to cater to them too. So, where would this end? I hope it's not necessary and that, at least, the female players can find what they're looking for in this game.

This is very true.  I'm also old school on that and feel that there is too much compromise being made in games and media just for politics.  It leads to very obviously "X" inserted into the story where it doesn't actually fit just so it's included.  There is a big difference between something that is written specifically to include "X" and so it works fine with the story versus when you just add it where it doesn't really make sense just to appease people and it ruins the experience.  I believe in equally representing people within the scope of the story.  If there is a reason to represent some group based on the scope, then you should do so.  If not, don't.

 

As far as the actual discussion, I personally like the female desert outfit.  But I'm not really a fan of the female character shown even if it is the stereotypical look shown in most games.  That said, they did show variations for the male character's looks, so I feel confident we'll have variations for the female character as well.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[KatsPurr]

6 minutes ago, Riamus said:

This is very true.  I'm also old school on that and feel that there is too much compromise being made in games and media just for politics. 

Believe it or not, but I'm old school as well. A real and genuine Generation X granny in my mid 50's. We generation X:ers don't complain about AAAAANYTHING and a lot of us are watching in disbelief at how things have gone way overboard with the woke stuff. Mind you, wokeness IS needed and IS good in sensible and reasonable measures. But some of the extremes we've been seeing these past few years just boggle the mind. Then again, viewpoints on these sorts of things are completely subjective. So just because something feels ridiculous to me, doesn't mean it doesn't to someone else who is feeling real and genuine distress. Who am I to judge?

 

So yeah, that's the background and culture I come from, and yet I STILL complained about this tone deafness issue - which means it's gotta be really bad. Heck, when did you guys ever see me whine and gripe before huh?

 

[bdubyah]

2 minutes ago, KatsPurr said:

I STILL complained about this tone deafness issue - which means it's gotta be really bad.

That's very subjective. Example: I have no issue with it whatsoever. See how that works?

And again, it's one outfit out of...how many, again? A half dozen or so? Come on...

[Jost Amman]

I think it's great that there are more and more female game players each new year.

Gaming has been a niche male entertainment business for too many years, and I'm glad that more female players are joining and expanding the "club"!

 

5 minutes ago, faatal said:

Maybe. I have not seen or heard anyone at the company talk about disappearing trees in months. Trees are in large groups with a single occludee that has to take into account the largest edge tree, which may also be moving from animation, so the bounds is an approximation. Too small, disappearing. Too big, inefficient.

 

There was an odd case, maybe a year ago where it looked like occludees were swapped, but was never reproduced.

Can I ask you a question on the matter? ... I really liked when you introduced the grass moving under the wind's pressure.

Is it possible to make even trees bend under a strong wind? I would be excited to see more "extreme" weather in the game at some point! 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

 

The only thing players can base their perceptions and assumptions on, is what the devs choose to publicly reveal to us. It is those choices that I am critiquing. We players can't know about what goes on behind the scenes or how well intentioned they are. And for the record, I totally believe that none of the many things I listed were ever done with any malice towards female players. I'm sure most of those were merely thoughtlessness and being more focused on giving a cool experience to male players rather than realizing that those things might make female players feel unwelcome.

 

And on that note, I would just like to say that that any interactions I've had with devs have been nothing but gracious, friendly and welcoming. I have been treated very well and have no personal agenda against them. But I'm annoyed about the tone deafness on behalf of female players in general. (and yes, I realize there are many females out there who don't see what the fuss is all about), but I'm speaking for those who ARE bothered.

 

I often pondered whether I should make a video to explain all this stuff and send it privately to the team. But then this thread and the reaction to the art stream felt like the opportune moment to finally voice my thoughts. Even if it means that it will ruin any good relations I had already with the devs. Even if it means that I'm rejected from streamer weekend. Even if it means that I will lose any opportunity to ever apply to work for the company as an artist or POI designer. This is an important enough topic that I'm willing to sacrifice all of those things.

Not always this a choice. In simplifications - devs have to show something from time to time. Prop, gameplay, new model, mechanic describtion. 

So this works kinda like :

Max: Ok Wiilly what did you done?

Willy : You know bandit model

Max: Show it

WIll: < show bandit model>

Max: ok nothing was published since 3 weeks - upload this on page 

There is no bigger logic - is there is nothing and something was made - it can be published just to keep interestment.

TFP know how keep a bussineses.

I can complain about their development decisions but for sure they are effective about managment

 

[Roland]

2 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

The only thing players can base their perceptions and assumptions on, is what the devs choose to publicly reveal to us. It is those choices that I am critiquing.

Sure, but you can also ask clarifying questions to seek to understand before assuming that what was done was what you fear it is. I believe they showed 1 female player character and 1 female bandit and several male types. What if they hadn't yet gotten to ANY female models and all they could show were male? Would you then have assumed they were going to have an all-male cast for the game and moved to accusations of that sort?

 

All I'm saying is that you and others were way too quick to the judgment you made. I know it's the thing to do to just assume the worst in today's cancel culture and for sure the industry as a whole has some work to do to improve but at the very least you could have simply asked a few questions to find out. If they finish up all their art and all the female characters and female bandits are of comic book proportions ready to seduce 13 year-old boys while all the male characters are in baggy non-formfitting outfits then for sure TFP will be in big trouble.

 

When I looked at the desert girl I just saw an homage to Laura Croft, personally. The other female character shown was completely covered-- even her face was mostly covered. So going only on what was shown it was an even split between a lot of skin and no skin. Let's wait and see what the rest of the female cast looks like before we decide how lecherous the staff is.

 

2 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

Even if it means that it will ruin any good relations I had already with the devs. Even if it means that I'm rejected from streamer weekend. Even if it means that I will lose any opportunity to ever apply to work for the company as an artist or POI designer. This is an important enough topic that I'm willing to sacrifice all of those things.

 

Noble indeed but unfortunately your actions have not been monstrous enough to disqualify you from any of those things.

 

 

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

Exactly THIS. And also the utter lack of consideration of how female players might feel: "Wow really? So this is what we got as a female character model? A sex object? Is this all we are to the devs? Are we not considered to be just as valuable and respected players?"

Ehh... 7DTD is inspired as hell with Mad Max and Fallout - it's bad as hell - they should target more into days gone or no more room in hell about art style. But they decided too keep into generic postapo - and to be honest such design is rly popular in productions with similiar art style - Fallout , Mad Max, Rage. It's not serious this is kinda halve parody. 

I wish 7DTD was serious Zombie game but it's too late. And as Madmole say - sells good. treat 7dtd more like hm... product not art  

[Roland]

3 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

I was guessing as much, but it actually makes it worse to know that they _could have_ chosen to show the hoarder female if they wanted to.

 

I haven't seen the female version yet. I don't think it is done and ready to show. I'm pretty sure he showed the one that was finished. As I said, I think they start with the male version of each one and then do the female version afterward and as far as I have seen in any internal sharing of work the desert pair are the only complete duo and so they showed both of them. So I really don't think it was a choice for this dev stream. I'm sure more female models will show up on twitter though over the next months and we will be able to measure the trends and start getting upset if need be.

 

You haven't acknowledged the female raider that was shown at all. What did you think of her? Did the way she was depicted score any points for male artists or damn them further in your eyes? Maybe the fact that she is covered from head to toe showing almost no skin made her so bland in the minds of the viewers that nobody remembers her.  I don't know. Nobody is talking about her at all.

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

ready to seduce 13 year-old boys

Hey! And what 'bout us older dudes?

I want to be seduced too! 

[bdubyah]

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

You haven't acknowledged the female raider that was shown at all. What did you think of her? Did the way she was depicted score any points for male artists or damn them further in your eyes? Maybe the fact that she is covered from head to toe showing almost no skin made her so bland in the minds of the viewers that nobody remembers her.  I don't know. Nobody is talking about her at all.

They'll just complain that she isn't feminine enough. Maybe make her armor pink so we know it's a female?

 

 

/s... kind of...

[Riamus]

24 minutes ago, Roland said:

Maybe the fact that she is covered from head to toe showing almost no skin made her so bland in the minds of the viewers that nobody remembers her.  I don't know. Nobody is talking about her at all.

Honestly, even though I don't mind the lookalike models - Tomb Raider, Mad Max - I kinda wish they would use original designs more.  The zombies aren't bad and current clothing isn't bad, but the new stuff is a bit too reminiscent of other movies and games.  Having a trader look like Lara Croft or whatever is fine, but I would prefer players to be more original.  I suppose you can't get away from Mad Max for bandits in a post apocalyptic world, though.  Even the make dessert outfit looked somehow familiar, though I can't place it.  But that is just me.  I really don't mind as long as I have good choices ... And preferably a cowboy hat, at least through use of the cosmetic mod.😁

 

I am also not a fan of having outfits to begin with.  At least, not unless you also have actual individual pieces of clothing/armor you can wear.  Outfits can look great and they certainly make things easier for devs since they only have to care about clipping with that one set of stuff rather than all combinations, but it takes away the freedom to look the way you want by greatly reducing the choices available.  A dozen outfits compared to dozens of combinations of clothing and armor is a noticeable reduction of choices.

 

Will we even be able to dye the outfits?

😁

Edited April 22, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Matt115]

11 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I haven't seen the female version yet. I don't think it is done and ready to show. I'm pretty sure he showed the one that was finished. As I said, I think they start with the male version of each one and then do the female version afterward and as far as I have seen in any internal sharing of work the desert pair are the only complete duo and so they showed both of them. So I really don't think it was a choice for this dev stream. I'm sure more female models will show up on twitter though over the next months and we will be able to measure the trends and start getting upset if need be.

 

You haven't acknowledged the female raider that was shown at all. What did you think of her? Did the way she was depicted score any points for male artists or damn them further in your eyes? Maybe the fact that she is covered from head to toe showing almost no skin made her so bland in the minds of the viewers that nobody remembers her.  I don't know. Nobody is talking about her at all.

 

Looks hardly inspired by Mad Max ( mouth) and a little bit with Fallout

[Crypted]

I'm sure TFP are going to add more female character models because in Alpha 15 or so of the console version they had like around 6-7 female characters to play as. I'd just give it more time. I mean yeah I understand the frustration of the matter at hand, this topic is still great to mention so TFP are aware of the situation. I really do think more playable characters will get introduced to the game because the character model overhaul is well overdo by now. 

[khzmusik]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

I think it's great that there are more and more female game players each new year.

Gaming has been a niche male entertainment business for too many years, and I'm glad that more female players are joining and expanding the "club"!

 

You're a bit late for the congratulations. Females have made up between 45-50% of the gaming market for over a decade.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/

 

The question is not "how do we make a game that will attract women to the market?" The question is "how do we make a game that won't alienate almost half of the existing market?"

 

Having said that - I'm incredibly amused that people think an attractive female character baring her midriff is the most "problematic" part of this game.

Edited April 22, 2023 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[KatsPurr]

16 minutes ago, Roland said:

Sure, but you can also ask clarifying questions to seek to understand before assuming that what was done was what you fear it is. I believe they showed 1 female player character and 1 female bandit and several male types. What if they hadn't yet gotten to ANY female models and all they could show were male? Would you then have assumed they were going to have an all-male cast for the game and moved to accusations of that sort?

 

Here's how I imagine a dev stream should work: Devs agree upon a common goal and negotiate among themselves beforehand what they're going to show and why. They're also going to put at least some consideration into how the public may react to what they're going to show and make sure to do their checks and balances accordingly - beforehand. It is at this point that they should be asking themselves questions like:

 

"Hmm, maybe not the best idea to show female player characters yet, since all we've got to show is the sexualized one? We don't want our female players to get the wrong idea and to feel undervalued and creeped out. Yeah, let's only show male player characters today and save the female models for later when we can give a much more balanced overview of the great work we've been doing."

 

Had this discussion taken place, and had the devs explained very clearly on stream that:

 

"We've got a whole bunch of cool player characters we'd like to share! Today we'll show you some of the work we've been doing with male player characters and show you the female characters at a later time, as the team is still hard at work getting them just right!"

 

The result? Eeeeeeeeeeveryone would have been happy and no misunderstandings or misconceptions would have taken place. 

 

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

You haven't acknowledged the female raider that was shown at all. What did you think of her?

 

She was frickin' COOL! ALL of the characters were ah-maaaazing! INCLUDING THE TOMB RAIDER ONE. Yes, you heard right. Including the busty tomb raider! Although I personally think she'd look even sexier if her chest were a bit more natural and the flesh was relaxed a bit so that they don't look like two balloons about to pop. Just a wee bit! 

 

The problem is not about the fact that there is a sexy character. The point I'm so desperately trying to make is that the dev team don't put any consideration into how female players are going to perceive their status as valid and respected players by devs only showing a busty female player character. They should have saved it for later when they can show the whole set. They should have had the foresight to know what kind of ruckus this is going to cause. 

 

And on that note, the reason the raider has not been mentioned that much is because people are specifically talking about "player characters", not the NPCs. The emotions we feel about our player characters are on a whole different level than what we think about NPCs. Player characters are represent ourselves in the game. It's a hugely personal thing. And if all we see beforehand is a busty version for females, it gives an unintended impression. 

 

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

All I'm saying is that you and others were way too quick to the judgment you made. I know it's the thing to do to just assume the worst in today's cancel culture and for sure the industry as a whole has some work to do to improve but at the very least you could have simply asked a few questions to find out.

 

I completely understand your position Roland. You know the team. You know they're not bad guys. You know they don't have bad intentions. You see how much they work their butts off to please the players. You've seen it happen again and again, that the team work so very hard to make nice things for us, and all we do is gripe about this and complain about that. It's heartbreaking, because you know that in reality, all they ever wanted to do was make the players happy. I get it. I empathize. I've been a professional game developer since 2006 and I know what it's like to be on your side of the fence. I know how heart-crushing it is to face a bombardment of unappreciative and hugely entitled players. If only they knew how hard and complex it is to make a game!

 

Since I know how that feels, I don't complain very often and I fully understand that behind every dev decision, there is most likely a very good and sensible reason why that choice was made. However this is the one moment where I felt like I needed to speak up. I'm passionate about 7 days. I want to see it thrive. I want to see female players feeling welcome and respected. I want the community to grow. Ya know, sometimes stuff has to be called out, and this was such a moment. Again it's not only about the female character, it's a lot of things that show lack of consideration of female players. And if people don't call this kind of thing out, how will they ever know there was a problem to begin with? How will they improve? How will the community grow into a more welcoming place for everyone? 

 

18 minutes ago, Roland said:

When I looked at the desert girl I just saw an homage to Laura Croft, personally. The other female character shown was completely covered-- even her face was mostly covered. So going only on what was shown it was an even split between a lot of skin and no skin. Let's wait and see what the rest of the female cast looks like before we decide how lecherous the staff is.

 

Listen, I don't think the team are lecherous. In fact, I'm absolutely sure that the majority of the team are absolute sweetie pies. I just think they're a bit clueless and tone deaf when it comes to how they present the game. It's easy to get carried away when you're bubbling with excitement for a new feature and you just know all the dudes are gonna go nuts when they see it. All I ask is for them to say to one another "Hey guys, let's remember our female players and how they will feel about this. Will this creep them out? Will this make them feel unwelcome?" Etc

 

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

I haven't seen the female version yet. I don't think it is done and ready to show. I'm pretty sure he showed the one that was finished. 

 

Right, well in this case then - the diplomatic and considerate thing would have been to wait to show any of the female "player" characters until they can share a broader assortment.

[Old Crow]

If anything, I want to wield nothing but a baseball bat and sawed-off shotgun with the male desert survivor outfit. Just be a force'a nature, bonkin' zombies.