Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Syphon583]

15 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Hey if we are getting forced to drink murky water can we rework dysentry?

Currently the random punishment is too... Well random and harsh for doing something you are being forced to.

What I suggest is having a hygiene meter, every dirty action decreases hygiene, getting clawed by a zombie, drinking murky water, wading through dirty water etc.

At certain intervals you get certain negative effects. Some debuffs deplete it quicker (open wounds get infected) and once you reach zero you get infected with that debuff we all hate.

 

This moves things from random chances to having to manage a certain number of bad events, you can drink murky water up to a point but if you get clawed by a zombie after that you get an infection.

I kind of see your point, but that's not really how un-treated water works. IRL, it's very much a random chance of getting sick from drinking untreated water. Depending on the source that chance might be higher or lower, but there's no magic formula saying you can drink under X amount of water and be safe from contracting a disease.

 

15 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Currently the random punishment is too... Well random and harsh for doing something you are being forced to.

Is it harsh, though? Let's be honest, getting dysentery in this game does not have a big enough effect to really worry that much about. Plus treating dysentery in-game is relatively easy. Just make sure you save those goldenrod teas when you find them because right now they have very little use. This change will actually make that item more useful.

[Khalagar]

Vedui just put out a video on the A21 learn by looting and actually brought up the exact same issues I did a few weeks ago

 

 

 

IMO it's worth a watch for those who don't understand why I think the learn by looting system is going to gimp a lot of playstyles and players, since it is basically the same exact issue Skyrim has with the "The Draugr Were Training " meme. Building your base? The zombies were training. Digging in your mine? The Zombies were training. Crafting some gunpowder and cooking some food? The zombies were training

 

Anytime not spent looting 24/7 is now "sub-optimal time usage" which doesn't directly translate to the player improving. You'll get exp while building your base, but all that exp will do is make the gamestage go up without directly translating to you getting better equipment to fight the stronger zombies. Vedui also brought up the exact same issue I made with coop too, where you will get left far behind your friends, and you can't expect them to bring back magazines for you because they will take up an absurd amount of inventory space which is already a major issue

 

I don't want to be gloom and doom since TFP are usually fairly rational about some of their changes, but this is one I think they need to elaborate a lot more on, because even just reading about it on paper and thinking about it for more than a few seconds has you go "Wait, but what about X?".

 

 

 

That aside, I do hope TFP uses this time to rework the attribute system to actually make sense as well. I've played most survival games out, and never seen such a weird attribute system that is confusing to new players / anti-common sense.

 

Raised your strength to max level? I bet you can carry a ton of weight and hit like a truck with melee weapons! Well actually no, you just do more damage with shotguns for some reason. Raised your agility to max? I bet you are fast AF boi and can jump over the moon! Well actually no, you just do more damage with SMGs. But wait, your endurance is max level, I bet you are REALLY tanky and durable and have the stamina of a god! Well actually no, you just do more damage with machine guns

 

Even my friend who has like 700+ hours still doesn't really know how the perks and attributes work at all, and always says stuff like "Oh I can just run over there real fast, I put several points in agility so I move really fast"

 

 

IMO we need the perks to just make more sense so there aren't wasted points, like if you are wanting the mining perks but are planning to use a sniper, every single point you wasted on strength is . . . wasted, because for some reason weapon types are tied to attributes and the base attribute itself provides absolutely nothing for "off attribute" weapons.

 

Would be way better if the attributes gave flat stats like +health / stamina / block damage etc, and then if the trees had it so like Strength was all the melee and tool perks, Perception was all the ranged weapon perks, Agility was all the move speed perks etc. That way you could put a few points into agility to make sure you did enough damage with the gun you wanted to use, while also putting points into intelligence so you can cook food that won't kill you

 

If they did it like that, they could do a lot of neat things like make it so you could do a "strength build" and potentially add a shield or something for people to be able to go full melee and endurance and wade into zombies like a juggernaut, or go a dex type build with ranged + agility to be agile and kite enemies etc. The current system just makes it really weird to do basically any kind of build besides using the arbitrary weapon the devs thought made sense to couple together, like a heavy machine gun and . . . . . . .  brass knuckles??? So if you are like "but I want to use a heavy machine gun and a knife =(" you are SOL

Edited September 3, 2022 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[Fanatical_Meat]

22 hours ago, Guppycur said:

Well since we're doing stuff that Roland is going to move into Overflow anyway...

 

 

Flare gun?

Is this one of your mods?

is it client side or server side or both?

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

Vedui just put out a video on the A21 learn by looting and actually brought up the exact same issues I did a few weeks ago

 

 

 

IMO it's worth a watch for those who don't understand why I think the learn by looting system is going to gimp a lot of playstyles and players, since it is basically the same exact issue Skyrim has with the "The Draugr Were Training " meme. Building your base? The zombies were training. Digging in your mine? The Zombies were training. Crafting some gunpowder and cooking some food? The zombies were training

 

Anytime not spent looting 24/7 is now "sub-optimal time usage" which doesn't directly translate to the player improving. You'll get exp while building your base, but all that exp will do is make the gamestage go up without directly translating to you getting better equipment to fight the stronger zombies. Vedui also brought up the exact same issue I made with coop too, where you will get left far behind your friends, and you can't expect them to bring back magazines for you because they will take up an absurd amount of inventory space which is already a major issue

 

I don't want to be gloom and doom since TFP are usually fairly rational about some of their changes, but this is one I think they need to elaborate a lot more on, because even just reading about it on paper and thinking about it for more than a few seconds has you go "Wait, but what about X?".

 

 

 

That aside, I do hope TFP uses this time to rework the attribute system to actually make sense as well. I've played most survival games out, and never seen such a weird attribute system that is confusing to new players / anti-common sense.

 

Raised your strength to max level? I bet you can carry a ton of weight and hit like a truck with melee weapons! Well actually no, you just do more damage with shotguns for some reason. Raised your agility to max? I bet you are fast AF boi and can jump over the moon! Well actually no, you just do more damage with SMGs. But wait, your endurance is max level, I bet you are REALLY tanky and durable and have the stamina of a god! Well actually no, you just do more damage with machine guns

 

Even my friend who has like 700+ hours still doesn't really know how the perks and attributes work at all, and always says stuff like "Oh I can just run over there real fast, I put several points in agility so I move really fast"

 

 

IMO we need the perks to just make more sense so there aren't wasted points, like if you are wanting the mining perks but are planning to use a sniper, every single point you wasted on strength is . . . wasted, because for some reason weapon types are tied to attributes and the base attribute itself provides absolutely nothing for "off attribute" weapons.

 

Would be way better if the attributes gave flat stats like +health / stamina / block damage etc, and then if the trees had it so like Strength was all the melee and tool perks, Perception was all the ranged weapon perks, Agility was all the move speed perks etc. That way you could put a few points into agility to make sure you did enough damage with the gun you wanted to use, while also putting points into intelligence so you can cook food that won't kill you

 

If they did it like that, they could do a lot of neat things like make it so you could do a "strength build" and potentially add a shield or something for people to be able to go full melee and endurance and wade into zombies like a juggernaut, or go a dex type build with ranged + agility to be agile and kite enemies etc. The current system just makes it really weird to do basically any kind of build besides using the arbitrary weapon the devs thought made sense to couple together, like a heavy machine gun and . . . . . . .  brass knuckles??? So if you are like "but I want to use a heavy machine gun and a knife =(" you are SOL

Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

 

Judging by all the "modifications" you want to the game, you should play a completely different game in the first place.

The only other option I see is to ask someone to create an overhaul mod for you, with all this stuff exactly as you like it.

 

And as I said the other time... these problems you see only apply to MP/COOP, so, from my perspective, no, I don't want them to change anything.

 

Having said that, I don't see much of a problem anyway: your friends don't need to come back to base to give you the mags, they just collect them on the spot, put them in a chest on the road, and then you go fetch them when you have time.

 

As for the zombies getting better and you not having good enough loot, again, why aren't your comrades providing you with some stuff you may need? Aren't you doing your part for the group? Why aren't they helping you? If they don't, then don't craft anything for them or ask better gear as "payment" for your high level crafting. It's a silly situation IMO, easily solved by some more collaboration in the party.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Khalagar]

21 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

 

Because I like the game and am allowed to without needing to justify it to you

 

21 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Judging by all the "modifications" you want to the game, you should play a completely different game in the first place.

 

Not really, since a lot of the issues are things that have are being actively changed by the devs from past versions that already worked. Also, this game is in alpha and now is precisely when I'm allowed to, and encouraged to, give feedback and opinions on the direction of the game and offer my thoughts on it. I'm sorry you don't think I should do this on the game forum for feedback, perhaps you should add me to the ignore list if this forum has such a feature so you can browse in peace without seeing feedback you don't approve of

 

21 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

from my perspective

 

I mean I didn't ask your perspective tho. I really am happy that you don't see these things as an issue, hopefully you can continue to enjoy the game in your own way, but clearly others do have their own issues and are very much so allowed to talk about them without need to ask for your permission to give it to the game developers during the "not even released yet and still in development" stage of the pre-release alpha.

 

You're more than free to give your perspective on my own perspective, but saying I need to just find a different game to play because you don't play the game in coop while I do is a pretty terrible take when I'm talking about changes that are particularly damaging to the many people playing in multiplayer or on servers etc

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

 

Judging by all the "modifications" you want to the game, you should play a completely different game in the first place.

The only other option I see is to ask someone to create an overhaul mod for you, with all this stuff exactly as you like it.

 

And as I said the other time... these problems you see only apply to MP/COOP, so, from my perspective, no, I don't want them to change anything.

 

Having said that, I don't see much of a problem anyway: your friends don't need to come back to base to give you the mags, they just collect them on the spot, put them in a chest on the road, and then you go fetch them when you have time.

 

As for the zombies getting better and you not having good enough loot, again, why aren't your comrades providing you with some stuff you may need? Aren't you doing your part for the group? Why aren't they helping you? If they don't, then don't craft anything for them or ask better gear as "payment" for your high level crafting. It's a silly situation IMO, easily solved by some more collaboration in the party.

What a bunch of bad takes.

 

The game is sold a single, co-op or multiplayer experience.

 

I genuinely can't believe you think it should only be developed around the singleplayer experience. More than that, you think it should be developed around YOUR single player experience.

 

Also your 'suggestions' won't work as magazines drop related to your attribution. So your looters are going to be finding magazines relevant to them, not to your base builder.

 

A complete playstyle and 'class' that has been around for years has been gutted from the game, so I think it warrants further discussion. Even if that discussion doesn't result in anything.

 

Your response though : "don't care, doesnt effect me, go play something else, your complaints are invalid."

 

How about not stifling feedback in a place specifically designed for feedback?

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

51 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

Because I like the game and am allowed to without needing to justify it to you

 

 

Not really, since a lot of the issues are things that have are being actively changed by the devs from past versions that already worked. Also, this game is in alpha and now is precisely when I'm allowed to, and encouraged to, give feedback and opinions on the direction of the game and offer my thoughts on it. I'm sorry you don't think I should do this on the game forum for feedback, perhaps you should add me to the ignore list if this forum has such a feature so you can browse in peace without seeing feedback you don't approve of

 

 

I mean I didn't ask your perspective tho. I really am happy that you don't see these things as an issue, hopefully you can continue to enjoy the game in your own way, but clearly others do have their own issues and are very much so allowed to talk about them without need to ask for your permission to give it to the game developers during the "not even released yet and still in development" stage of the pre-release alpha.

 

You're more than free to give your perspective on my own perspective, but saying I need to just find a different game to play because you don't play the game in coop while I do is a pretty terrible take when I'm talking about changes that are particularly damaging to the many people playing in multiplayer or on servers etc

 

 

 

Well responded Khal.

 

Seems even with pure reason and good feedback you still get pushback.

 

Every time I look at these forums and some of these responses I lose more and more interest in the game. Developer apologists and those intolerant or dismissive of legitimate objections and concerns create precisely the environment in which developers can continue; in those applicable cases, to go on ruining their product.

 

I enjoyed reading your posts and I think there's a lot of great criticisms in there with superb suggestions. I just think it will fall on deaf ears for the most part, though we can hope not 🤭

Edited September 4, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

 

Because I like the game and am allowed to without needing to justify it to you

I was just trying to point out how illogical are your requests.

 

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Judging by all the "modifications" you want to the game, you should play a completely different game in the first place.

 

Not really, since a lot of the issues are things that have are being actively changed by the devs from past versions that already worked. Also, this game is in alpha and now is precisely when I'm allowed to, and encouraged to, give feedback and opinions on the direction of the game and offer my thoughts on it. I'm sorry you don't think I should do this on the game forum for feedback, perhaps you should add me to the ignore list if this forum has such a feature so you can browse in peace without seeing feedback you don't approve of

No, they're not. You have been talking about completely scrapping and rewriting the attribute and skill system.

I can't see how that's going to happen, even in your (and your friends') wildest dreams.

 

And by the way, I don't want to ignore you, I'm just discussing something like everybody else... if you can't stand criticism on what you write then don't post.

 

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

from my perspective

 

I mean I didn't ask your perspective tho.

This is a discussion forum, isn't it?

So why is it ok for you to give opinions and not for me?

 

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

I really am happy that you don't see these things as an issue, hopefully you can continue to enjoy the game in your own way, but clearly others do have their own issues and are very much so allowed to talk about them without need to ask for your permission

Except that if they change those mechanics the way you ask, it'll make the game worse for me (Single Player).

 

As I said before, but apparently you let it slide over your head, as long as they keep SP and MP rules one and the same, balancing the game for every group of players and for different needs, will never work. We'll keep fighting each other because what you want and need in Multiplayer, is the opposite of what I want and need in single player.

 

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

You're more than free to give your perspective on my own perspective, but saying I need to just find a different game to play because you don't play the game in coop while I do is a pretty terrible take when I'm talking about changes that are particularly damaging to the many people playing in multiplayer or on servers etc

I'd never say that the way you're reading it, let me clarify: you're asking to completely rewrite integral parts of the game (again, take the attributes and perks system change you want), and by asking that you should know there's ZERO chance they're going to modify the game that way before release.

 

The attribute system is going to stay, the perk system will only receive a little rebalance, probably. If you think what you're asking is going to even be considered at this point in development, then you're either delusional, or you're just complaining to complain.

 

That's why I told you that you're asking basically to play a different game.

 

2 hours ago, Khalagar said:

That aside, I do hope TFP uses this time to rework the attribute system to actually make sense as well. I've played most survival games out, and never seen such a weird attribute system that is confusing to new players / anti-common sense.

 

57 minutes ago, Pyrrhrick said:

I genuinely can't believe you think it should only be developed around the singleplayer experience. More than that, you think it should be developed around YOUR single player experience.

No. I'm just defending the view of the game I like.

 

As long as the changes you're asking for, don't impact the gameplay I like in single player, then I don't care. But as soon as I see that somebody else asks changes that will impact negatively the game in general (SP included), then I'm more than in my right to voice my dissent. I can't imagine why you can't understand that and why you're so surprised.

 

57 minutes ago, Pyrrhrick said:

Also your 'suggestions' won't work as magazines drop related to your attribution. So your looters are going to be finding magazines relevant to them, not to your base builder.

No. It doesn't work that way. They'll find any type of magazines, and a bit more of what they've perked into.

As usual, people make a bucket out of a drop.

 

57 minutes ago, Pyrrhrick said:

Your response though : "don't care, doesnt effect me, go play something else, your complaints are invalid."

 

How about not stifling feedback in a place specifically designed for feedback?

Khalagar is asking to completely rewrite the perk system (and the loot mechanics?)

That would impact my game, so I'm in my right to express dissent (as an opinion).

 

Also, I don't understand why you're all so ruffled by my post.

How much do you think my opinion on your feedback accounts to for the devs? ZERO

So, don't worry, be happy, whatever feedback you're giving is not even remotely diminished by my personal opinion.

 

57 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Seems even with pure reason and good feedback you still get pushback.

And by "pushback" you mean... counterarguments?

I didn't know her post was the Pravda, sorry.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

57 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Every time I look at these forums and some of these responses I lose more and more interest in the game. Developer apologists and those intolerant or dismissive of legitimate objections and concerns create precisely the environment in which developers can continue; in those applicable cases, to go on ruining their product.

Says the guy who can't reply to counterarguments when they're given.

I'm from a generation where everything can be discussed, argued and criticized.

 

I see nowadays there's plenty of people that see open discussions as attacks... how sad this is the new norm.

[Jost Amman]

@pattyboy27: I see you don't know the history of this forum, apparently... I and @Beelzebubs Ghost had a lengthy discussion on something, in a different thread, and when I gave my reply point by point, all he could say was basically that I wasn't good enough for him to reply. Then the same person, comes here and accuses the players in this forum of being apologists for the devs. ... Remember: if you believe your opinions have merit, you won't be afraid to confront with others.

 

I explained to Khalagar why I disagree with the changes he/she requested, so I'm far from dismissive, and my opinions are my own.

In the eyes of some people, anybody who agrees with the devs' choices is an apologist, jeez!

They can't even fathom that one can agree with TFP because they consider it impossible!

 

[pattyboy27]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Says the guy who can't reply to counterarguments when they're given.

I'm from a generation where everything can be discussed, argued and criticized.

 

I see nowadays there's plenty of people that see open discussions as attacks... how sad this is the new norm.

 

 

You don't find it at all a coincidence that you apparently consistently get perceived as attacking people? "How sad". Seriously, spare us the indignant 'back in my day' stuff too please. It was a very dismissive response from your own singular experience against someone who was trying to consider the wider player base and not just themselves.

Edit: I "thumbs downed" your reply and now I'm getting spoken down to about not knowing the "history of the forums" lol. Carry on...

 

 

FWIW and back on topic I agree with you Khalager. Never understood the lack of consultation or any development framework / end-game coherent direction with updates, which end up being redesigned 2 patches later because 'ah crap, that didn't work'. I really love that TFP have committed to this game for so long, but at this stage it's just round and round in circles and stompin on old ground.

Edited September 4, 2022 by pattyboy27
the lolz (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

7 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

As for the zombies getting better and you not having good enough loot, again, why aren't your comrades providing you with some stuff you may need?

You could also have this little problem as a single player in A21. And there you don't have anyone who can supply you with better equipment. You have to either craft it, buy it or find it.

 

Balancing the game will not be easy. There are players who like to loot non-stop, but there are also players who like to build or spend time in the mine. The question that concerns me is, what is the player type that the balancing will be based on? How many days a week will I have to set aside my hammer and pickaxe to scavenge?

 

[Jost Amman]

34 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

You could also have this little problem as a single player in A21. And there you don't have anyone who can supply you with better equipment. You have to either craft it, buy it or find it.

 

Balancing the game will not be easy. There are players who like to loot non-stop, but there are also players who like to build or spend time in the mine. The question that concerns me is, what is the player type that the balancing will be based on? How many days a week will I have to set aside my hammer and pickaxe to scavenge?

 

I don't see the problem in single-player, frankly.

 

If one needs better gear, they can focus on crafting or looting.

I'd go on "magazine hunting" until I'm able to get good enough gear by crafting it, and I'll also invest in the perks I want to be better at and have better gear for.

While I'm doing that, I'd be also sometimes finding better gear out of luck. If I don't, I can still use crafting or buy something from the trader.

 

In SP it's a no-brainer, honestly. I can see, however, that if you're playing with people who don't like to share with you, or they just don't care enough about the group, then you'll need to take things back in your hands and go out looting for a bit. And, yes, balancing it the right way, as always, will be pivotal.

 

1 hour ago, pattyboy27 said:

You don't find it at all a coincidence that you apparently consistently get perceived as attacking people? "How sad". Seriously, spare us the indignant 'back in my day' stuff too please. It was a very dismissive response from your own singular experience against someone who was trying to consider the wider player base and not just themselves.

You don't get it, don't you? People think I'm always aggressive because they don't have a clue what BLUNT means. I deliver what I need to say with no flowers and no embellishments. Some people can't go past the "form" and get offended. Well, I'm not going to change the way I deliver my opinions just to appease to some giant egos or some delicate souls.

 

My response was dismissive, in part, because (case in point) what Khalagar is asking the devs to change at this stage of development is preposterous.

If you can't understand that, then you're delusional as well.

 

1 hour ago, pattyboy27 said:

FWIW and back on topic I agree with you Khalager. Never understood the lack of consultation or any development framework / end-game coherent direction with updates, which end up being redesigned 2 patches later because 'ah crap, that didn't work'. I really love that TFP have committed to this game for so long, but at this stage it's just round and round in circles and stompin on old ground.

That's because you're not part of TFP team and can't understand why they made each decision they made. It's also part of the normal development process, especially in Steam's Early Access, to change the game how many times you like if you don't like feature X or Y.

 

You call it "lack of direction"... I call it experimentation on to find what the better game mechanics are. As I told someone else before, TFP have very clear what game they'd like to create. What they changed several times (for different reasons) is the specific form of the implementation of their idea. They want an RPG? Yes. They put LBD as a placeholder, then they switched to V1 of the new attribute/perk system, then they refined and evolved it, and so on and so forth...

 

People look from the outside and make judgements and assumptions based on what they perceive, but not based on the truth of internal development workings.

[Laz Man]

10 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Vedui just put out a video on the A21 learn by looting and actually brought up the exact same issues I did a few weeks ago

 

 

 

IMO it's worth a watch for those who don't understand why I think the learn by looting system is going to gimp a lot of playstyles and players, since it is basically the same exact issue Skyrim has with the "The Draugr Were Training " meme. Building your base? The zombies were training. Digging in your mine? The Zombies were training. Crafting some gunpowder and cooking some food? The zombies were training

 

Anytime not spent looting 24/7 is now "sub-optimal time usage" which doesn't directly translate to the player improving. You'll get exp while building your base, but all that exp will do is make the gamestage go up without directly translating to you getting better equipment to fight the stronger zombies. Vedui also brought up the exact same issue I made with coop too, where you will get left far behind your friends, and you can't expect them to bring back magazines for you because they will take up an absurd amount of inventory space which is already a major issue

 

I don't want to be gloom and doom since TFP are usually fairly rational about some of their changes, but this is one I think they need to elaborate a lot more on, because even just reading about it on paper and thinking about it for more than a few seconds has you go "Wait, but what about X?".

 

 

 

That aside, I do hope TFP uses this time to rework the attribute system to actually make sense as well. I've played most survival games out, and never seen such a weird attribute system that is confusing to new players / anti-common sense.

 

Raised your strength to max level? I bet you can carry a ton of weight and hit like a truck with melee weapons! Well actually no, you just do more damage with shotguns for some reason. Raised your agility to max? I bet you are fast AF boi and can jump over the moon! Well actually no, you just do more damage with SMGs. But wait, your endurance is max level, I bet you are REALLY tanky and durable and have the stamina of a god! Well actually no, you just do more damage with machine guns

 

Even my friend who has like 700+ hours still doesn't really know how the perks and attributes work at all, and always says stuff like "Oh I can just run over there real fast, I put several points in agility so I move really fast"

 

 

IMO we need the perks to just make more sense so there aren't wasted points, like if you are wanting the mining perks but are planning to use a sniper, every single point you wasted on strength is . . . wasted, because for some reason weapon types are tied to attributes and the base attribute itself provides absolutely nothing for "off attribute" weapons.

 

Would be way better if the attributes gave flat stats like +health / stamina / block damage etc, and then if the trees had it so like Strength was all the melee and tool perks, Perception was all the ranged weapon perks, Agility was all the move speed perks etc. That way you could put a few points into agility to make sure you did enough damage with the gun you wanted to use, while also putting points into intelligence so you can cook food that won't kill you

 

If they did it like that, they could do a lot of neat things like make it so you could do a "strength build" and potentially add a shield or something for people to be able to go full melee and endurance and wade into zombies like a juggernaut, or go a dex type build with ranged + agility to be agile and kite enemies etc. The current system just makes it really weird to do basically any kind of build besides using the arbitrary weapon the devs thought made sense to couple together, like a heavy machine gun and . . . . . . .  brass knuckles??? So if you are like "but I want to use a heavy machine gun and a knife =(" you are SOL

 

Thanks for the video link.  There was nothing new in his video that others haven't already expressed concerns over and have been responded to already.

 

In general the following were his worries.

 

1) RNG would be too heavy handed with drops and will cause player frustration.

 

2) Non looter players will have a harder time progressing their skills.

 

Magazines are pretty plentiful, so I don't think this will be a problem.  Whenever, I was in search of a particular magazine type, I would go out of my way to visit POIs that would have a greater chance of having the ones I wanted.  Since you can get them as rewards and for sale from the trader, players have many ways to obtain the types they are hunting for.

 

If there are some edge cases, it will be balanced accordingly.

 

Yes, this change does slow down crafting progression in some cases compared to A20. However, It is 100% more rewarding / engaging.  It may not be LBD, but it's the next best thing.  It makes crafting more accessible to all players regardless of build AND gives them a new activity to engage in.

 

Magazines are essentially a new valuable commodity for players to use, buy, sell or trade with other players.

 

This should improve the experience for all game modes versus how crafting was unlocked previously.  SP players, can work towards unlocking all crafting should they choose to do so, while MP players can work towards pooling their magazines on their dedicated crafters.

 

The team is well aware of all of the concerns, and are eagerly trying to wrap up this Alpha so you guys can give it a try. 😎

 

 

[RipClaw]

36 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

If one needs better gear, they can focus on crafting or looting.

I'd go on "magazine hunting" until I'm able to get good enough gear by crafting it, and I'll also invest in the perks I want to be better at and have better gear for.

It's not always that simple. Maybe you not only need better equipment, but you also need to finish the new base because the next horde is coming in two days and you still need resources.

If you simply go on a magazine hunt, you might end up with a half-finished base and hardly any ammunition left. And in the worst case you are still missing some magazines to finally have the better weapon. That's why balancing becomes even more important in A21.

 

[Laz Man]

10 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

It's not always that simple. Maybe you not only need better equipment, but you also need to finish the new base because the next horde is coming in two days and you still need resources.

If you simply go on a magazine hunt, you might end up with a half-finished base and hardly any ammunition left. And in the worst case you are still missing some magazines to finally have the better weapon. That's why balancing becomes even more important in A21.

 

 

That's actually the beauty of it.  The player has to choose what's more important to them and what trade offs come from it.

 

For example, I am one magazine away from being able to craft something I really want (i.e. junk sledge).  Being able to craft that item will help me significantly in the upcoming bloodmoon.

 

Do I choose to loot a few more Mo Power related POIs or do one more quest in hopes to get that last magazine or spend more time building up my base instead?

 

The tougher these decisions are, the better.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

24 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

That's actually the beauty of it.  The player has to choose what's more important to them and what trade offs come from it.

And that's exactly the point. You have to be able to make a real decision.
 

If it is not possible to find the required amount of magazines to upgrade my equipment in the remaining time, then it is better to continue building in the hope that the base will be finished and still hold with the existing equipment. There is then no real decision one could make.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

3 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Yes, this change does slow down crafting progression in some cases compared to A20. However, It is 100% more rewarding / engaging.  It may not be LBD, but it's the next best thing.  It makes crafting more accessible to all players regardless of build AND gives them a new activity to engage in.

 

 

 

Other than 'Because the Devs don't want it,' is there any serious reasoning behind not having that which the developers don't seem interested in entertaining; on which some players are; in my opinion, vehemently, unreasonably, and almost pathologically against, a hybrid system?

 

LBLAD - Learn by Looting AND Doing.

 

Looting for magazines to craft items and learn by doing to improve other skills like mining, exercise, and even cooking. Or fun crossovers like creating better trainers (sneakers) to assist in the exercise, unlocking certain boosted recipes for cooking, and mod books for mining.

 

I would see the hybrid system as one which creates more depth and adds morr fun to the game, one which accomodates more people while at the same time making absolute sense.

 

This current incoming binary system creates a divide sharply in favour of a certain group, and since I am far from being a voracious looter, the new system interests me very little. That's not to say it's useless - but it is heavily weighted away from my playstyle.

 

I suspect an incoming answer is 'adapt.' If that is the case then anyone not playing Loot Lunatic will be told to move in that direction, and that looks strongly like being shoehorned into a particular playstyle, which bring me full circle to my original objection - to constraints and limitations.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

16 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Other than 'Because the Devs don't want it,' is there any serious reasoning behind not having that which the developers don't seem interested in entertaining; on which some players are; in my opinion, vehemently, unreasonably, and almost pathologically against, a hybrid system?

 

Great point! If we ignore the most salient reason "the Devs are not interested in Learn by Doing as a progression mechanic," why can't we have Learn by Doing? I think you've cracked the case. LBD coming in A22.

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

12 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 

Great point! If we ignore the most salient reason "the Devs are not interested in Learn by Doing as a progression mechanic," why can't we have Learn by Doing? I think you've cracked the case. LBD coming in A22.

 

'I don't want it,' is not a reason. It is a statement. The reasoning informs the statement.

 

I suggest you re-read both of our statements, cut your sarcasm out, and then respond appropriately.

 

If you pull another Jost, I won't entertain any more of your comments. 

 

It may also be pragmatic to take note of two words in particular within my post: 'Hybrid system.'

 

 

[Jost Amman]

@Kosmic Kerman: you've been warned!  

 

Actually, I wouldn't be against a hybrid system, in principle.

The only problem is, if you add that, the devs will need to rebalance the entire XP system.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Doomofman]

This day week we'll be 12 months on from the first A20 dev stream... Just sayin...

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

18 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

@Kosmic Kerman: you've been warned!  

 

Actually, I wouldn't be against a hybrid system, in principle.

The only problem is, if you add that, the devs will need to rebalance the entire XP system.

 

I can't argue with that point.

 

It would be time consuming, sure, but I think since the devs have plenty of experience now with jumping between systems it may not be so hard.

 

Sometimes, however; though short term time comsuming exercises do create lag, the long term benefits can far outweigh any of this inconvenience. Perhaps the devs would give re-consideration to such a hybrid system.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[Melange]

21 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

I suspect an incoming answer is 'adapt.' If that is the case then anyone not playing Loot Lunatic will be told to move in that direction, and thag looks strongly like being shoehorned into a particular playstyle, which bring me full circle to my original objection - to constraints and limitations.

Damn, you edited your post. I wanted to throw a thagomizer into the foray. Oh wait, I just did...

 

Other than that, I can say I do see your point. And we can complain to deaf ears.

 

Tell the chef you don't like his cooking...would his response of 'Then don't eat!' come as a surprise? And then some of the wait staff will converge on your table and berate you that you have no taste. You are not worthy!

 

There's a lot of dead horse flogging going on here. And it will later be served on a silver golden platter.

 

Steal the silverware and get the fork outta there. 🤠

 

[Mister Forgash]

Greetings one and all. This is long, long overdo,  I've been frequenting these forums since A16, and have read thousands of pages of Dev dairy since that time .. it's kinda funny to feel a little like I know so many of you when you don't know me. Where to begin.. Oh yes.

So I've been watching streamers play since A15, and I have several hundred hours in myself and I've twisted the arm of a few friends to buy the game as well I like to think my opinion is as valid as anyone else's, but with such strong opinions here...

 

All that aside, here are my takes on some of the upcoming and more commonly discussed game systems:
- Learn by looting - is a victim of poor branding.- If we called it Learn by reading I can't help but feel like there wouldn't be as nearly as many people getting their tenderbits in a twist. Like all changes, It's hard to know exactly how it will play out without trying it ourselves. I think it'll be great in Singleplayer and I think it'll be not-bad in multiplayer as long as you're working as a team with your friends. If your friends are dicks, you've probably already had problems with teamwork in the past. Unless you have a self-imposed rule wherein you can only use gear that was player crafted, I expect the setbacks you encounter will be minor- but the benefit of smoother progression will be enjoyed .. No more - "I went 3 weeks before finding the forge recipe! Q_Q" - Nor will you feel forced to spec into it when this is the luck you have.

- Water Jar gate - I just think this is going to feel weird after the first 1-2 hours of dealing with It I'm pretty sure the vast majority of players wont think of it again, leaving only the most anal of the playerbase to have issues. [I think] I would have liked a different solution to this balance conundrum, but I understand this was done for the sake of balance, and I'm going to be real- I haven't gone (really)thirsty since my first 2 hours of overall playtime- Yes, in 7D2D in general, not like the first hour of seperate playthroughs, water has been freakin' easy-peasy.

- Farming / Living off the Land - I would have strongly preferred that instead of getting seeds back on harvest, there was instead a chance the crop just went back to seedling stage on harvest, saving time on replanting. Outside of that, It just seems to me there's a bunch of people that want to have large functioning farms without investing the ONE FREAKING PERK POINT to make it statistically viable. Hopefully they can find a way, no matter how soulcrushing to go without a point in Rule 1: Cardio for another level or something. Bloody tragic. Otherwise plant the seeds you find and stop crafting them.

- Perks - This is the spicy one. I see the benefit in another redesign but I certainly am not pushing for it. I really think there's 100 different takes to have on this. If it were my choice, I'd push for a hybridized system like Beelzebub mentioned- Learn by Reading, Improve by doing. Books/mags give your character the ideas [Unlocking schematics, perks], engaging in activities gets your character proficient enough to spend points in said perks. You spent a lot of time running around and now your athletics is level 15? Congratulations you're eligible to drop a point in XYZ improving your sprinting in some vague way! .. Got you hand to hand  skill to 20? If you're going to stick with it, you should invest in the boost to punching damage.. You going to drag your ass on cacti until you're a boss at taking damage? .. I don't have a solution for this kind of stupid behavior, that's why I acknowledge the flaws in my argument.

 

Josh, Beelz, play nice. Snowdog, keep your pants on. Please, we beg of you.

Roland, if you move my first post, I'll be mega-sad. ;(

 -- Looking forward to being part of the discussion, sorry for the wall of text!

Edited September 4, 2022 by Mister Forgash (see edit history)