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Alpha 21 Dev Diary


Roland

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3 hours ago, Archer said:


I just logged in to actually see what day & skill level everyone was at. 
Still got my inventory. 
0 skills now as if I've never read a magazine and I'm back at level 1. 

Base is still there, inventory still there, and everything physical is still there but my character's skills and everything else are wiped to 0. Nothing is removed from the inventory of my character or from containers, but anything I've read, and everything I'd leveled from XP is wiped. So, I guess I can't tell you the answer now to what level we were, it's day 24 on the server.  (P.S. - Not @%$#ing about it, I understand it's an unstable release)


Right now the forge ahead magazine is by far the rarest, we've found a total of 17 of those, but the medical magazines I think we've recovered like 60-70 of them. 
The 'old school' books and mags that were already in the game seem to spawn at a normal/similar rate as before. 
Lots of 'Tech Junky' magazines are popping up, too, seems to be a disproportionately high amount, I'm at like, level 37 in those? 
Tool mags are spawning in 2nd to 3rd lowest rate which is preventing us from being able to build certain things. 
Over the course of the past three days we've had anywhere between 6 and 22 players on the server at one time, last night was probably our largest crowd (we can't add more than 8 people to a party so we just end up making extras but would really like it if the devs allowed us to make parties larger than just 8 ) 
Bar Brawler, Batter Up, and The Fireman's Almanac seem to be everywhere as well, they're so abundant we also have stacks of them sitting unused. 
The Great Heist, Hunter's Journal, Lucky Looter seem more or less normal rates I guess. 

The problem that keeps happening right now is early 'bottlenecks'. 
We keep needing magazines for another tool or item that we want/need to build in order to make other stuff. 
At the moment - the blood moon isn't actually much of an issue, because we've only played the first 3 of them, so they don't start 'getting hard' usually until a bit later in the game (which to us was normal, and totally fine) 
This forces us to stop working on the base, and go out to help the scavengers. PLEASE NOTE: if this is intended, it's not appreciated. We really did not want to be forced to go out. But the 2 of us (which is a skeleton crew of builders/crafters compared to usual) who are staying behind keep "running out of stuff to do" because we can essentially only do basic tasks with the limited options of tools and recipes available to us, which force us to just go out and look for more of these magazines so we can get back to work.
We always build the baseline outershell first obviously so we don't end up getting a bunch of breaches, but the interior where we organize, build rooms for crafting, storage, and processing materials from one into the next is essentially collecting dust and cobwebs. I can use the forge now which means I can melt stuff down but once that task is done, it's pretty much "whelp, time to go look for magazines" which comprises roughly 80% of the time we have allocated for building stuff, so the base looks like @%$#. It's functional and holds up but it's mostly just empty rooms right now.





I can't think of them all off the top of my head now but overall, each day I play this update I like it less and less. Some of the looters/scavengers in the group were also mentioning that they didn't really care for the 'skulls' system actually, it kind of takes away some of the surprise of 'finding out' just how dangerous an area is before they go in, and now it's as though their character psychically knows how bad the monsters down in the cave/basement/wherever are before they go in. 

The graphics changes made are awesome in the update, love the new forge/workbench models for sure, haven't seen the chemistry station yet except on streams and that looks great, but pretty much everything else, especially all of the 're-works' are an emphatic thumbs down, with the magazine 'system' being front and center of that negative response. Balancing this out for a group of people just seems impossible, I don't know how they would ever adjust loot rates and spawn rates to respond to a # of people on a server. 

And because the moderator on here keeps implying I'm either lying or we're just bumbling through like we've been caught in a '90s infomercial doing a simple task of some kind, I've started streaming/recording our game sessions now and can share a link to the twitch, or if want/need be I'll take the time to upload a video onto YouTube or something of it (I don't stream/record regularly or anything) and to triple iterate this because this seems to be the go-to response to every post that suggests there's a possible flaw in the system: THE LOOTERS ARE NOT READING THE MAGAZINES FFS. THEY BRING THEM *ALL* BACK TO BASE AND WE SORT THROUGH THEM. 
I'm one of the looters MYSELF now, unfortunately. Air Drops are bringing in tons of magazines, in fact they're almost the best place to get them at this point but more often than not it's crap we don't need.


 

 

Thank you for all the detail. It seems you have been getting lots of magazines, probably the amount that would be expected at that time. So not a bug.

 

You say you can't build at the base because tools or items are missing. Which tools or items would that be exactly? 

 

If it is the cement mixer: Can't you work with cobblestone and upgrade later?

Is it something else? You mentioned the bellows somewhere else but that can't be it as it is optional and can be substituted easily by building a second forge.

 

Also I read your discussions with some posters and I noticed that you said that some of the scavengers would need to read magazines so they would find more of those same magazines. But that does not help at all, that was a false rumour. And to make sure I just looked at the XML and there is nothing that would increase loot change for magazines by reading those magazines. You need to put one or two points into the associated **perk** to get the boost to find more of those specific magazines.

 

For example if you want to stay in the base and still have one looter find more "Forge Ahead" books tell him to just put one measly perk point into Lockpicking (and/or Advanced Engineering) and he will get that boost as well. Which perk is applicable is always listed in the description of the magazine. I mean lockpicking is even beneficial for a looter and it helps with finding "forge ahead" books just like Advanced Engineering, I don't think you would need much convincing there.

 

Also, since you asked: Yes, the game officially supports 1 to 8 players, anything else is neither guaranteed nor balanced by TFP. No idea where it is written exactly, but that topic already came up a few times and this was always the official answer. It means that servers working with more players is not by design but because the game is flexible enough to work with more than 8 players. But especially balance can be wonky because nobody at TFP is testing those situation.

 

Usually server operators adapt through modding, server scripts and adjusting options. For example I have heard that many server operators reset chunks from time to time so unlooted buildings and unwrenched cars resurface in already looted areas. And TFP also added a config option (default off) so chunks can auto-reset if not visited for a while.

 

 

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8 hours ago, RipClaw said:

So if you build a horde base on the border between forest and desert and you quickly run over to the desert after the horde starts, you have a forest horde with a desert lootstage.

It may be different now but no loot differences were detectable between biomes for horde night loot bags. It was still useful to build a horde base in the Wasteland to farm the night spawns for exp though.

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51 minutes ago, xbonedragonx said:

100% agree with this. Regardless of anything all you salty people think, and especially you @Roland, I've played for the past 7 years, and I've experienced so much time gating because you keep changing it to suit such a specific playstyle.


Whoa…Especially me? I’m not even salty….lol. I’ve enjoyed playing all the iterations and have been able to let each one go as each new one was developed. 
 

Even if vanilla becomes so restrictive that it completely limits everyone to one single dev-approved play style, they have made sure to make the game moddable so that all players can still play the way they want to. 
 

But here’s the thing. Reports of dead and destroyed game play styles are always greatly exaggerated during the first weeks of experimental. 

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7 minutes ago, Roland said:


Whoa…Especially me? I’m not even salty….lol. I’ve enjoyed playing all the iterations and have been able to let each one go as each new one was developed. 
 

Even if vanilla becomes so restrictive that it completely limits everyone to one single dev-approved play style, they have made sure to make the game moddable so that all players can still play the way they want to. 
 

But here’s the thing. Reports of dead and destroyed game play styles are always greatly exaggerated during the first weeks of experimental. 

Gotta love when people lash out completely emotionally.  But IIRC one of the devs said it before:  People don't go off the rails about things they don't care about.  Even some of the more aggressive less savory posters are here at the end of the day because they like the game.  Even if their way of showing it is terribad lol.

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40 minutes ago, Roland said:


Whoa…Especially me? I’m not even salty….lol. I’ve enjoyed playing all the iterations and have been able to let each one go as each new one was developed. 
 

Even if vanilla becomes so restrictive that it completely limits everyone to one single dev-approved play style, they have made sure to make the game moddable so that all players can still play the way they want to. 
 

But here’s the thing. Reports of dead and destroyed game play styles are always greatly exaggerated during the first weeks of experimental. 

No they are seen as exaggerated by certain folks on the team on folks who hold power here because they don't like bad feedback only positivity and no criticism.

 

the pimps can't bother bringing back learn by doing and making it into a hybrid with the attribute system like alot of mods have done which alot of people like and instead went with their own ridiculous learn by looting hybrid system which is terrible. 

 

Even madmoles ridiculous explanation for the water changes and not wanting people to be OP by end of week 1 by crafting 500 duty tape yet people can easily ride out on a bike and rng loot vehicles in the wasteland and boom OP gear. Even without going out to the wasteland getting tier iron tools and weapons isnt a big deal by day 8. 

 

This alpha so far feels like the last 2 years were spent making the game look pretty with little in the way of fun gameplay mechanics.  The time wasted on the dumb water and learn by looting could have gone into bandits or idk maybe adding in the story about the Duke to make the game fun.

 

Huge thanks to the modders who keep this game alive and entertaining and fix up bugs and issues when they show up in mods. 

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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Thank you for all the detail. It seems you have been getting lots of magazines, probably the amount that would be expected at that time. So not a bug.

 

You say you can't build at the base because tools or items are missing. Which tools or items would that be exactly? 

 

If it is the cement mixer: Can't you work with cobblestone and upgrade later?

Is it something else? You mentioned the bellows somewhere else but that can't be it as it is optional and can be substituted easily by building a second forge.

 

Also I read your discussions with some posters and I noticed that you said that some of the scavengers would need to read magazines so they would find more of those same magazines. But that does not help at all, that was a false rumour. And to make sure I just looked at the XML and there is nothing that would increase loot change for magazines by reading those magazines. You need to put one or two points into the associated **perk** to get the boost to find more of those specific magazines.

 

For example if you want to stay in the base and still have one looter find more "Forge Ahead" books tell him to just put one measly perk point into Lockpicking (and/or Advanced Engineering) and he will get that boost as well. Which perk is applicable is always listed in the description of the magazine. I mean lockpicking is even beneficial for a looter and it helps with finding "forge ahead" books just like Advanced Engineering, I don't think you would need much convincing there.

 

Also, since you asked: Yes, the game officially supports 1 to 8 players, anything else is neither guaranteed nor balanced by TFP. No idea where it is written exactly, but that topic already came up a few times and this was always the official answer. It means that servers working with more players is not by design but because the game is flexible enough to work with more than 8 players. But especially balance can be wonky because nobody at TFP is testing those situation.

 

Usually server operators adapt through modding, server scripts and adjusting options. For example I have heard that many server operators reset chunks from time to time so unlooted buildings and unwrenched cars resurface in already looted areas. And TFP also added a config option (default off) so chunks can auto-reset if not visited for a while.

 

 

For practical purposes yes - we can work with cobblestone and upgrade later, absolutely, it's just that not having those other things available to us earlier on is just not as 'fun' for people who don't really have an interest in the going out and looting part of things. *Plus* - again we play as a larger crowd, so we have to essentially scale up our defenses and progress in order to be able to keep our heads above water towards the middle and late game when we're wanting to start pushing game stage 300.

If it is indeed 'officially' just 1 to 8 players then I must say it's worked just fine for bigger communities to build servers and player experiences that are beyond a small handful of people surviving in a base by themselves. There's a huge overlap in this game's playerbase with other titles like Project Zomboid, or even Ark: Survival Evolved and Minecraft, and so forth and all of those definitely support more than just 8 players - was working pretty good for those purposes, even if it's on accident, and it fit 7 Days in a 'neighborhood' of games, and this just feels like they're intentionally taking this into the 'we make this more for streamers' neighborhood. A player experience of 8 or less players just sounds lonely as hell to me.

Also, we've used mods in the past before - we just hate how it always introduces even more bugs than were already there to begin with. It's a matter of mitigating problems rather than spending the bit of spare time our admin team has by constantly troubleshooting with other players. 

Plus, I'll humbly say again: I liked the vanilla base game with default settings, as it was. It worked out great for a big chunk of my life that we'd almost ritualistically hop in every time an update came out and try the new stuff. 

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30 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

No they are seen as exaggerated by certain folks on the team on folks who hold power here because they don't like bad feedback only positivity and no criticism.


It has nothing to do with positive or critical posts. It has to do with time after time after each alpha this person or that says the changes made their play style impossible only to be proven 100% wrong. My personal favorite was the supposed end of building underground bases that have since been proven completely possible..lol

 

30 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

the pimps can't bother bringing back learn by doing and making it into a hybrid with the attribute system like alot of mods have done


Why should they? The mods have already done it as you said. What’s wrong with having a variety of versions to play? If the devs just duplicate the mods then there’s just one version.  Why so angry about A21 if you already have access to the version you enjoy? It shouldn’t be long before you can have A21 visuals and performance with your favorite alternative version of player progression. Seems like these changes shouldn’t even really phase you or affect you honestly. 

 

30 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

This alpha so far feels like the last 2 years were spent making the game look pretty with little in the way of fun gameplay mechanics.


Why do you care if you already use mods? Seems like you could just ignore the vanilla updates at this point and just wait for your favorite mod update. Why so displeased in something you aren’t going to play?

 

There are plenty of people who are pleased so they can be happy and you can be happy. 
 

30 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Huge thanks to the modders who keep this game alive and entertaining and fix up bugs and issues when they show up in mods. 


Exactly! You’re covered. Be at peace. 

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, Archer said:

So the bonus to finding the magazines that crafters need in order to build better tools and weapons doesn't exist unless the builders quit working on the base and go loot stuff themselves. Thus the 'flow' of these magazines ends up coming in at rates that are disproportionate to their need. We *need* forging magazines, but the only way to find more of them is A. I leave base and go look more, neglecting my construction and organization of inventory or B. Someone 'wastes' magazines, by reading a bunch of them and then increases the likelihood they'll find them.

I don't see how option B helps anything- reading magazines doesn't increase your chances of finding more of them as far as I'm aware?  
.. Now, still a little wasteful, but less so- you aren't doing it already, you might have to ask one of the looters to invest 1 or 2 points into advanced engineering for the boost on those Forge Ahead mags - Luckily, if they already enjoy questing, they may have already sank some points into intellect tree- so hopefully it'll align with their build.

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43 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

This alpha so far feels like the last 2 years were spent making the game look pretty with little in the way of fun gameplay mechanics. 

This is hilarious feedback because you can go back in these forums and on reddit and before the last 2 years people were @%$#ing that the reason this game was not getting any attention was because it looked terrible like a PS1 game and people were begging for graphical upgrades so it wasn't offensive to look at as well as decapitations.  TFP delivered all these things and ironically about halfway through people started telling them that the reason the game wasn't more successful is because they spent too much time on the visuals instead of game mechanics.

I literally use that whole flipflop as an example when talking to people on other games on how game communities are.  And as much as im a more mechanical player myself even I have to acknowledge the visuals make a big difference.

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)
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14 minutes ago, Roland said:

Why should they? The mods have already done it as you said. What’s wrong with having a variety of versions to play? If the devs just duplicate the mods then there’s just one version.  Why so angry about A21 if you already have access to the version you enjoy? It shouldn’t be long before you can have A21 visuals and performance with your favorite alternative version of player progression. Seems like these changes should even really phase you or affect you honestly. 

You just don't get it, Roland. It shouldn't be on the modders to tailor the game to individual play styles, The Devs should be making the game we want. All of us want.
A game that's newbie friendly, but stays fresh for the 5,000-hour vet! A toggle progression system for those who like LBR, LBD, or my personal favorite, Learn by Bananas. Understandably I can't reveal too much, but it is BANANAS to say the least! Also, it needs to deliver on Bandits, Behemoths, and Ziplines- Yesterday. Thank you.
(I hope people can still take jokes!)

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16 minutes ago, Roland said:

It has nothing to do with positive or critical posts. It has to do with time after time after each alpha this person or that says the changes made their play style impossible only to be proven 100% wrong. My personal favorite was the supposed end of building underground bases that have since been proven completely possible..lol

Yeah, this one is one of the few things that actually cheeses my biscuits.  When people were struggling with the new AI of A17 I made a couple reddit posts and videos detailing how the new AI worked.  People decided "ok onlee maze bases viable now" from that.  Then I made like a dozen different style bases, one for each one people said were not viable before and made videos of me showcasing them and defending them.  People only doubled down that only maze bases were viable.  Nothing like giving them video proof of everything still working and having people just parrot the same wrong thing anyways.

Some gamers are their own worst enemies.

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3 hours ago, Archer said:

As I said before - it's a great update for solo players and small groups

It's great for solo but the problem as you've described it also happens for small groups in wilderness or Navezgane spawns. I was about to suggest trying it with the chunk reset on but realized that the increased foot traffic of any large group would keep them from respawning anyway. 

Maybe if your group could organize better to stay out of certain areas long enough or make sure they're taking quests on the opposite sides of town... /sarcasm

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30 minutes ago, Roland said:

image.thumb.png.da5cd5d031233b31639d2f1d92b6793e.png
 

Here is an interesting poll external to this forum community done by Nerds Guns and Steel. Just a first impression poll of 3100 players. 😀

Yes because youtubers communities aren't biased lol. Love his channel but that poll is ridiculous. This update is mediocre.

 

Heck he has proven with his let's play so far that by day 8 you can have quality 6 items. So much for madmoles we don't want people getting OP fast by crafting 500 duct tape because was is easy to get nonsense.

 

So unless the pimps nerf drop rates, redo the skill system again or do who knows what the meta or strategy is  spend a few days leveling and questing in forest biome, get bike and after day 7 horde go into wasteland, loot cars and get OP gear easy. Kinda makes all those magazines folks have to collect kinda useless if most of it can be bypassed so easily.

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1 hour ago, Mister Forgash said:

You just don't get it, Roland. It shouldn't be on the modders to tailor the game to individual play styles, The Devs should be making the game I want. What I want.
 

Fixed it for you, because I'm enjoying A21 just fine.

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20 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Yes because youtubers communities aren't biased lol. Love his channel but that poll is ridiculous. This update is mediocre.

 

Heck he has proven with his let's play so far that by day 8 you can have quality 6 items. So much for madmoles we don't want people getting OP fast by crafting 500 duct tape because was is easy to get nonsense.

 

So unless the pimps nerf drop rates, redo the skill system again or do who knows what the meta or strategy is  spend a few days leveling and questing in forest biome, get bike and after day 7 horde go into wasteland, loot cars and get OP gear easy. Kinda makes all those magazines folks have to collect kinda useless if most of it can be bypassed so easily.


Thanks for your opinion. I really hope once your favorite mods get updated for A21 you’ll have a version of the game you can be happy playing. 

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2 minutes ago, Roland said:


Thanks for your opinion. I really hope once your favorite mods get updated for A21 you’ll have a version of the game you can be happy playing. 

Not just me but alot of folks. Btw there is another poll in general discussion where it's over 50% in favor of the old learn by doing system or does that poll not count?

 

Would also be nice to get an answer as to what the pimps will do about that massive problem since folks can bypass the whole tool and weapons magazine nonsense with that simple trick.  Why waste time looking for magazines to craft tools and weapons when you can just stroll into the wasteland and loot vehicles for OP gear lol.

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27 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Yes because youtubers communities aren't biased lol. Love his channel but that poll is ridiculous. This update is mediocre.

 

Heck he has proven with his let's play so far that by day 8 you can have quality 6 items. So much for madmoles we don't want people getting OP fast by crafting 500 duct tape because was is easy to get nonsense.

 

So unless the pimps nerf drop rates, redo the skill system again or do who knows what the meta or strategy is  spend a few days leveling and questing in forest biome, get bike and after day 7 horde go into wasteland, loot cars and get OP gear easy. Kinda makes all those magazines folks have to collect kinda useless if most of it can be bypassed so easily.

 

This is so silly. TFP made the wasteland with better enemies+loot exactly for veterans like this youtuber so they have the choice to skip the novice-friendly normal progression and get on the fast track. In your version it sounds like the better loot in the wasteland was an undiscovered bug introduced by the janitor. 😁

 

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30 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Not just me but alot of folks. Btw there is another poll in general discussion where it's over 50% in favor of the old learn by doing system or does that poll not count?


I’ll let you convey my thanks to all of them but I’m just talking to you. The poll here counts for sure. I even defended the author for making it. 
 

What’s interesting about the polls is that YouTube comments are historically more critical and hostile than these forums are and yet 3100 players showed an overwhelming positive first reaction. The 46 people(so far) in the poll here show a more negative reaction where most people are viewed as being more supportive of TFP decisions.

 

30 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Would also be nice to get an answer as to what the pimps will do about that massive problem since folks can bypass the whole tool and weapons magazine nonsense with that simple trick.  Why waste time looking for magazines to craft tools and weapons when you can just stroll into the wasteland and loot vehicles for OP gear lol.


I don’t think they’ll do anything. They are fine with players going to the wasteland and looting and questing for rewards that bypass the crafting. It’s just an optional path.  It doesn’t make the crafting progression useless if a lot of players want to go that route. 
 

It’s funny that critics like you accuse TFP of shutting down player game play choices when TFP has never claimed that they want to force players to play the game only one way. Now it is YOU calling for TFP to shut down an entire option to loot in the wasteland because you see crafting as useless. 
 

The answer is that TFP is happy to allow players to either craft, or loot, or purchase, or quest, or any combination to progress.

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1 hour ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Would also be nice to get an answer as to what the pimps will do about that massive problem since folks can bypass the whole tool and weapons magazine nonsense with that simple trick.  Why waste time looking for magazines to craft tools and weapons when you can just stroll into the wasteland and loot vehicles for OP gear lol.

It's risk vs reward.  Even the base game is murdering the fack out of people right now.  The Wastelands is too much for 90% of the community to handle until, ironically, they are more geared.  Reddit has had several threads about the game being more difficult and people dying alot but generally liking the new challenge (with the exception of some zombie crawl/duck/dodge behavior in niche scenarios)

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3 hours ago, Archer said:

For practical purposes yes - we can work with cobblestone and upgrade later, absolutely, it's just that not having those other things available to us earlier on is just not as 'fun' for people who don't really have an interest in the going out and looting part of things. *Plus* - again we play as a larger crowd, so we have to essentially scale up our defenses and progress in order to be able to keep our heads above water towards the middle and late game when we're wanting to start pushing game stage 300...

 

 

Hmm, perhaps the solution is to give those who enjoy hanging out at the base more fun activities to engage in while they wait for the mags to arrive from the looters...🤔

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Yes because youtubers communities aren't biased lol. Love his channel but that poll is ridiculous. This update is mediocre.

So if the results of a poll don't agree with your opinion, it's a ridiculous poll and invalid?  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this game as well as everything else.  An opinion is not fact.  It is just what you think and cannot be either right or wrong.  And is someone disagrees with you, they are neither right nor wrong.  Regardless of YouTube's community being the way they are (I certainly don't care for them normally), that is still 3100+ votes greatly in favor of the update.  Of course, these are people who are purposely going to a streamer who at least most of them like (some might not know the streamer and just randomly chose to watch them) and so they are more likely to vote positively for that reason.  Even so, that's a pretty good number of votes to disregard.  And it is still 3100+ people who overwhelmingly like the update.  And their opinions are just as valid as yours or anyone else's.

 

The thing I don't get is that if you read all the posts here, you'll find that the people who complain about the update, or the game in general, very often resort to name calling, angry posts, blaming people, and so on rather than providing constructive criticism.  Is it really that hard to give constructive criticism?  You can state why you don't like XYZ without demeaning others, being dismissive of other peoples' opinions, belittling people, name calling, or my favorite - threatening to stop playing the game or threatening to use mods.  You can absolutely get your point across without such theatrics.

 

To be clear, I've been critical of some of the changes myself and initially came to hate the update because of what appears to have been a combination of bad RNG and a bug in a save.  After starting a couple new saves, that went away and now I'm back to enjoying the game.  Yet I posted my frustration over what was going on in that save and I've posted my critiques about the magazines being unbalanced as well as other things.  I'm not, as someone was so nice to call me, a "white knight".  I simply give my own opinions on things, whether good or bad.  And everyone has the right to do so.  There's no reason to try to make it seem like your opinion is more worthwhile than someone else's because it really isn't.  All opinions are equally valid because they are opinions and not facts.

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