It would be ideal if zombies didn't have block-breaking in their pathing to the player UNLESS they have no access to the player.

[Darklegend222]

I'm still working on designing this horde base, but if I stand in the red circle then they will bash down the walls to get to me. If I stand in the green circled room, they will happily trot along the path. I'm in the process of making the 1 block narrow bridge connect to the red circled room to see the results. I tried using steel blocks for the walls in the red circled room, but it does not work in making them walk along the path. The weirdest part is, that if I stand on the iron bars which is the ceiling, they will go as far as to walk inside the red circled room and climbing the ladder in the corner to get onto the ceiling. Even though I have a ladder to the roof in the room below the green circled room, in which neither have a door.

 

Horde pathing is currently better than any previous alpha, but I feel as if it could use a few minor tweaks to improve the performance of a tower defense play style. I will continue to revise this base until I find the "ideal" form, even though the current one should be working with no blocks needing to be damaged by zombies.

 

 

 

Edit: I've changed the horde base so the one block pathway connects to the red room. I have the issue now where the zombies WON'T path into the red circled room and begin breaking walls, unless I'm on the bridge indicated by the YELLOW circle. There are no doors placed either, its a fully flat base on stilts with only straight paths from one place to another, unless you count ladders to the roof.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Darklegend222 (see edit history)

[theFlu]

Hmm, there was some discussion about path length recently, I seem to recall Roland mentioning that the distance varies and that some of the path lengths was 15  - don't know if that was min or max for the variance, but you're above that at least. 15 feels so ridiculously short that I might well be misremembering something.

[Sjustus548]

I was standing on the other side of the open gate to a fence.  Gate was wide open with nothing obstructing the path but Instead of taking one step to go in the fence the zombie decides he need to break the fence to get to me.  Like literally the next step over was the open gate.  I've had zombies try to break down walls to get to me even though I'm standing right behind them on the ground with nothing stopping them but for some reason they decide that they need to destroy that wall.  I don't know how the AI tries to determine what is the "best" path to get to me but it feels like they just go into destruction mode without actually doing that calculation most of the time.  

[ElDudorino]

26 minutes ago, Sjustus548 said:

I was standing on the other side of the open gate to a fence.  Gate was wide open with nothing obstructing the path but Instead of taking one step to go in the fence the zombie decides he need to break the fence to get to me.  Like literally the next step over was the open gate.  I've had zombies try to break down walls to get to me even though I'm standing right behind them on the ground with nothing stopping them but for some reason they decide that they need to destroy that wall.  I don't know how the AI tries to determine what is the "best" path to get to me but it feels like they just go into destruction mode without actually doing that calculation most of the time.  

There's one tier 4 PoI I've been sent to a few times where the "boss room" sends two swarms of zombies at you from two side passageways and they both proceed to go nuts attacking the wooden railings of the stairs you're standing on, when they could just take one extra step to get to you instead.  It's pretty funny that it seems to happen every time as long as you stay on the stairs.

 

Anyway, I have to disagree with the topic here.  Zombie behavior doesn't have to be convenient.  In fact, it shouldn't be.  In my opinion, anyway, if the zombies want to avoid the path you set for them and instead make their own path, that's their prerogative.

[Darklegend222]

35 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

There's one tier 4 PoI I've been sent to a few times where the "boss room" sends two swarms of zombies at you from two side passageways and they both proceed to go nuts attacking the wooden railings of the stairs you're standing on, when they could just take one extra step to get to you instead.  It's pretty funny that it seems to happen every time as long as you stay on the stairs.

 

Anyway, I have to disagree with the topic here.  Zombie behavior doesn't have to be convenient.  In fact, it shouldn't be.  In my opinion, anyway, if the zombies want to avoid the path you set for them and instead make their own path, that's their prerogative.

I don't believe it's intended behavior either that zombies get stuck on blocks, hence all the fixes the devs do in order for zombies to path around in POIs.

[ElDudorino]

Well for sure they shouldn't be stuck on blocks in that PoI.  But in your base, aren't they just trying to build a more straightforward way to kill you without running a gauntlet?

[Darklegend222]

1 hour ago, ElDudorino said:

Well for sure they shouldn't be stuck on blocks in that PoI.  But in your base, aren't they just trying to build a more straightforward way to kill you without running a gauntlet?

That's correct, however this is a "tower defense" game and the developers want us players to develop our own horde bases that use that pathing to our advantage. In earlier alphas you were to build a base surrounded by spikes and barbed wire traps. Nowadays you build a gauntlet for them to path through and dispose of.

 

I am perfectly fine with the zombies making a path to the player in the most efficient manner IF they do not have a path to follow. If you read through everything I said, if i stand in the yellow circled area, then they will follow the path. And that path to the yellow circled area is even more blocks away from the wall they break down if I'm in the red circled area. Which is why I believe the AI pathing needs to better optimized.

[DaChibii]

4 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

That's correct, however this is a "tower defense" game...

Is it? I thought it was a Zombie Survival game.

But I understand the confusion because the game does feel like it doesn't have much focus, and tries to be too much of everything. Which... all of that leads to dramatic chipmunk style threads on these forums.

 

I mean I don't mind it being a TD-style game, but I actually don't think that's part of the main gameplay loop. Edit: I guess I should change this to "part of the main gameplay loop anymore", but even the early alpha's really didn't play like TD games (fixed paths, scripted waves, base lives, etc.) I mean the closest we get is that it has an automated turret. I mean Mann vs. Machine in TF2 is more TD than 7dtd, it only has two types of turrets. I feel like that was idea Madmole wanted, but it never really materialized in game. Base defense sure... TD... not really.

Edited February 9, 2022 by DaChibii
Word clarification (see edit history)

[BarryTGash]

9 minutes ago, DaChibii said:

Is it? I thought it was a Zombie Survival game.

 

Quote from TFP's description on the Steam store page, emphasis mine:

 

Quote

7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games. Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. Navezgane awaits!

 

[meganoth]

10 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

That's correct, however this is a "tower defense" game and the developers want us players to develop our own horde bases that use that pathing to our advantage. In earlier alphas you were to build a base surrounded by spikes and barbed wire traps. Nowadays you build a gauntlet for them to path through and dispose of.

 

I am perfectly fine with the zombies making a path to the player in the most efficient manner IF they do not have a path to follow. If you read through everything I said, if i stand in the yellow circled area, then they will follow the path. And that path to the yellow circled area is even more blocks away from the wall they break down if I'm in the red circled area. Which is why I believe the AI pathing needs to better optimized.

 

The path to the yellow area is shorter for the zombies than the path to the red area. Since path length is part of the cost equation they may see it easier to attack wall blocks, especially if those are only single cobblestone. But you said they are steel now? In the pictures it still looks like cobblestone, in both pictures.

 

Maybe two blocks wide walls would help or simply a gap in the floor, that might help the zombies somewhat in their decision.

 

There surely are still bugs in the AI, so there are other explanations. Maybe the turret is slightly too far into their path and considered some kind of obstacle or something blocks the entrance to the red room, is it fully 2 blocks high of free path for the door space and the two spaces in front and back of the door?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Boidster]

11 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

That's correct, however this is a "tower defense" game and the developers want us players to develop our own horde bases that use that pathing to our advantage. In earlier alphas you were to build a base surrounded by spikes and barbed wire traps. Nowadays you build a gauntlet for them to path through and dispose of.

 

I really don't think TFP "wants" us to play any particular way. They give us a world with certain rules and some tools to survive. We choose how we want to play. In my co-op game we survived just fine with a standard box base surrounded on all sides by traps. We got bored with that so we tried a pathing base. That worked fine as well. Next time we're going to try a two-box base with a tunnel underneath and traps all around both boxes, to kite the zombies. I don't think TFP cares how we survive, as long as we're having fun. Min/maxers on YouTube will definitely pump out "THE BEST A20 HORDE BASE!!!!!!!" videos daily, which optimize zombie pathing for maximum carnage. Lots of people like playing that way, after all!

 

7 hours ago, BarryTGash said:

Quote from TFP's description on the Steam store page, emphasis mine:

 

I don't understand why "combination of" is dropped from people's citation of that description. The game has some tower-defense elements and if you want to play it as a TD shooter you certainly can. You can also play as a ground-based melee or M60 or explosives specialist. You can hide underground and force the Zs to chase you through tunnels. You can set up a racecourse protected by SMG turrets and run around on your motorcycle during horde night. It's not "a tower defense game", it's a zombie game which can be played using TD techniques. If you want to min/max (minimum risk/maximum zombie carnage), then TD is a very attractive strategy for sure.

[Darklegend222]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

The path to the yellow area is shorter for the zombies than the path to the red area. Since path length is part of the cost equation they may see it easier to attack wall blocks, especially if those are only single cobblestone. But you said they are steel now? In the pictures it still looks like cobblestone, in both pictures.

 

Maybe two blocks wide walls would help or simply a gap in the floor, that might help the zombies somewhat in their decision.

 

There surely are still bugs in the AI, so there are other explanations. Maybe the turret is slightly too far into their path and considered some kind of obstacle or something blocks the entrance to the red room, is it fully 2 blocks high of free path for the door space and the two spaces in front and back of the door?

 

 

 

 

 

The walls are doubled in the red area, I have them on top of the dart traps, and I have another layer behind them placed above the fence posts. They were all made of steel, but seeing how it didn't affect their pathing I decided to go back to cobblestone for a more legitimate test.

 

I've attempted to redo the door ways and get rid of them, but it did nothing to fix the issue. I will say that there are no flaws in the pathing if I'm on the roof, but I'd prefer if there were no issues to begin with as I will need to be repairing my traps.

 

 

1 hour ago, Boidster said:

 

I really don't think TFP "wants" us to play any particular way. They give us a world with certain rules and some tools to survive. We choose how we want to play. In my co-op game we survived just fine with a standard box base surrounded on all sides by traps. We got bored with that so we tried a pathing base. That worked fine as well. Next time we're going to try a two-box base with a tunnel underneath and traps all around both boxes, to kite the zombies. I don't think TFP cares how we survive, as long as we're having fun. Min/maxers on YouTube will definitely pump out "THE BEST A20 HORDE BASE!!!!!!!" videos daily, which optimize zombie pathing for maximum carnage. Lots of people like playing that way, after all!

 

 

I don't understand why "combination of" is dropped from people's citation of that description. The game has some tower-defense elements and if you want to play it as a TD shooter you certainly can. You can also play as a ground-based melee or M60 or explosives specialist. You can hide underground and force the Zs to chase you through tunnels. You can set up a racecourse protected by SMG turrets and run around on your motorcycle during horde night. It's not "a tower defense game", it's a zombie game which can be played using TD techniques. If you want to min/max (minimum risk/maximum zombie carnage), then TD is a very attractive strategy for sure.

Id argue that the box of which you surrounded in traps is considered tower defense, hence the reason why "combination of" is dropped. You could be in a random POI during bloodmoon and it'll be a tower of which you're defending, your meant to use structures to stay alive.

 

You are correct in that they aren't forcing us to play a certain way. I'm simply requesting that they allow us to have more freedom. The base does exactly what it should if I'm on the roof, but if I'm in the red area where I do repairs, then they no longer path and just start breaking everything. As the previous person said that the max blocks is 15, I'm not sure if that's true but if it is then I would think it needs to be a lot further.

 

Otherwise i might have to keep going back to my little 10x17 box that is littered with blade traps and fence traps. I just like the idea of building much more elaborate bases (albeit way more resource intensive and infinitely less efficient) as it would add to the fun. Surviving blood moons is not challenging on any difficulty, so it would be nice to have more freedom and leniency towards the pathing.

[Vaeliorin]

29 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

As the previous person said that the max blocks is 15, I'm not sure if that's true but if it is then I would think it needs to be a lot further.

It used to be, and they reduced it because people were "exploiting" it by making zombies run through long mazes where they could be killed at the player's leisure.  Basically, you could just build a long, one block wide zigzag pattern with barbed wire/electric fences to slow the zombies, and pick them off at your leisure. 

 

Personally, I though it was kind of fun, but apparently that wasn't what the devs wanted.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Vaeliorin said:

It used to be, and they reduced it because people were "exploiting" it by making zombies run through long mazes where they could be killed at the player's leisure.  Basically, you could just build a long, one block wide zigzag pattern with barbed wire/electric fences to slow the zombies, and pick them off at your leisure. 

 

Personally, I though it was kind of fun, but apparently that wasn't what the devs wanted.

 

And where did TFP say that? I don't remember such a design goal and I doubt they simply want to remove long paths. What they definitely wanted and want to prevent were trivial endless loops, or at least give zombies a chance to notice.

 

And case in point, our current horde base has a path of about 40 blocks up a house, maybe even more and the zombies follow that path. The astonishing thing is, to find the entrance to that path they have to search even longer paths.

 

I'll make a picture and post it shortly.

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

Ok, here is our horde base.

 

First picture is where the zombies have to climb a ladder.

 

Now to even know that they want to climb that ladder when they for example spawn somewhere to the right they would need even longer paths, but lets ignore this. The path up the ladder is 10 blocks.

 

 

Now this is a view from the other side of the building. So the end of the ladder in the first picture is where arrow 1 starts and continues along arrow 2 to the stairs in the lower left of the picture for 25 blocks. The stairs are 5 blocks and the zombie now have to run in the other direction along arrow 3, past the sledge turrets to the door, 15 blocks. The path continues along arrow 4, turns around again and finally arrives at the shooting gallery at arrow 5 after another 26 blocks. That would be 81 blocks or meters.

 

BUT there are shortcuts, actually the zombies could reach us if they destroyed a handful of blocks at the top of the stairs to the left. But that is already 40 blocks away from the entrance at street level.

 

 

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

And where did TFP say that? I don't remember such a design goal and I doubt they simply want to remove long paths. What they definitely wanted and want to prevent were trivial endless loops, or at least give zombies a chance to notice.

 

And case in point, our current horde base has a path of about 40 blocks up a house, maybe even more and the zombies follow that path. The astonishing thing is, to find the entrance to that path they have to search even longer paths.

 

I'll make a picture and post it shortly.

 

I can't find a quote for you or anything, but I remember it being discussed.  It was a couple alphas ago, though (between a17 and a18, if I'm remembering correctly.)  You used to be able to get zombies to path a long way, but now if you build your base too big, they won't path around it to get to the entrance any more if they're coming from the wrong side.  I built a 35x35 base in a19, and on horde night when they came from the back side, the entire horde, instead of running around to the path that lead to me, jumped into my moat and started beating on multiple layers of concrete that were 10 blocks below me and didn't even lead to anything except dirt (though I suppose they could have dug through the dirt, the floor, and then attacked the pillars inside my base...)

 

  

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Now this is a view from the other side of the building. So the end of the ladder in the first picture is where arrow 1 starts and continues along arrow 2 to the stairs in the lower left of the picture for 25 blocks. The stairs are 5 blocks and the zombie now have to run in the other direction along arrow 3, past the sledge turrets to the door, 15 blocks. The path continues along arrow 4, turns around again and finally arrives at the shooting gallery at arrow 5 after another 26 blocks. That would be 81 blocks or meters.

 

BUT there are shortcuts, actually the zombies could reach us if they destroyed a handful of blocks at the top of the stairs to the left. But that is already 40 blocks away from the entrance at street level.

 

 

I don't know why you can get them to path through all that, but it has been my experience that they won't follow a long path any more.  If I had to guess, it's probably because they're needing to do the vertical movement repeatedly.  My understanding of the AI (from what I've heard and seen, not looked at code or anything) is that zombies look to get to your level first, so the pathfinding might be looking for a path to your level, moving to get up, then start searching again, allowing it to seemingly take a longer path than it actually does.

 

I don't mean to say the limit is 15 blocks or whatever now, just that the path the zombies will take before just going into destroy mode is a lot shorter than it used to be.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Vaeliorin (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

15 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

 

I don't mean to say the limit is 15 blocks or whatever now, just that the path the zombies will take before just going into destroy mode is a lot shorter than it used to be.

 

Or something in your design is making the zombies think they don't have a path.  I saw an issue with a base design back in A19 that I had where one blood moon it worked fine, but after putting blade traps along the block staircase to cut their legs off as they jumped, they never tried to go that route in the next blood moon (they were treating it like I didn't leave a path to me).

 

Another time they went into destroy mode because I forgot to leave a block down in front of the ladder so they didn't have a direct path to me (since zombies can't jump onto ladders).  Once I put a block down when I realized what I did, they reset themselves and started pathing to me again.

[meganoth]

32 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

I can't find a quote for you or anything, but I remember it being discussed.  It was a couple alphas ago, though (between a17 and a18, if I'm remembering correctly.)  You used to be able to get zombies to path a long way, but now if you build your base too big, they won't path around it to get to the entrance any more if they're coming from the wrong side.  I built a 35x35 base in a19, and on horde night when they came from the back side, the entire horde, instead of running around to the path that lead to me, jumped into my moat and started beating on multiple layers of concrete that were 10 blocks below me and didn't even lead to anything except dirt (though I suppose they could have dug through the dirt, the floor, and then attacked the pillars inside my base...)

 

Ah, okay, but the story here is more complicated. What they did AFAIK was to increase path costs, so zombies will not run around a whole building into a back door they shoudln't know about when they simply can attack you from the front. That probably was a reaction to all the protests the zombies would have x-rays eyes

 

Now every small change to the AI can have lots of different consequences. I can't imagine their intention was to limit linear path length, but in effect they also made it a lot more difficult to lead the zombies along very long paths. 

 

11 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Or something in your design is making the zombies think they don't have a path.  I saw an issue with a base design back in A19 that I had where one blood moon it worked fine, but after putting blade traps along the block staircase to cut their legs off as they jumped, they never tried to go that route in the next blood moon (they were treating it like I didn't leave a path to me).

 

Another time they went into destroy mode because I forgot to leave a block down in front of the ladder so they didn't have a direct path to me (since zombies can't jump onto ladders).  Once I put a block down when I realized what I did, they reset themselves and started pathing to me again.

 

A third possibility is actually bugs. In the horde base I showed above the stairs seem to "fail" after some time even though they are not destroyed. So half a night the zombies run up that ladder with zeal and a mission. Then suddenly all they do is hit the lowest rungs, even if I come down the ladder halfways. As if they suddenly can't see the stairs as stairs anymore or there is an invisible obstacle.

 

I can't report it as a bug because the world is from A20.0 and that may be part of the reason for this puzzling failure.

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

46 minutes ago, meganoth said:

A third possibility is actually bugs. In the horde base I showed above the stairs seem to "fail" after some time even though they are not destroyed. So half a night the zombies run up that ladder with zeal and a mission. Then suddenly all they do is hit the lowest rungs, even if I come down the ladder halfways. As if they suddenly can't see the stairs as stairs anymore or there is an invisible obstacle.

Were some of the open frame blocks above the ladders missing when the zombies began attacking the ladders instead of climbing them? Not sure if it was fixed, but zombies were having trouble seeing ladders as a path if there were no blocks interrupting a straight line drawn from the top of the ladder to skybox. Open trapdoors above the ladders didn't count as blocks either for the pathing calculation which might have been useful as a routing switch.

[meganoth]

11 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Were some of the open frame blocks above the ladders missing when the zombies began attacking the ladders instead of climbing them? Not sure if it was fixed, but zombies were having trouble seeing ladders as a path if there were no blocks interrupting a straight line drawn from the top of the ladder to skybox. Open trapdoors above the ladders didn't count as blocks either for the pathing calculation which might have been useful as a routing switch.

 

I thought that bug was fixed. And the blocks above that I specifically put there because of the bug were intact. I know because that was my shooting position. But it can't really be a coincidence. So either the fix was only half done or the bug is not fixed unless you make a new world or I'm simply misremembering there is a fix and the bug is not prevented by blocks that can be seen and shot through.

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

And no, the blocks above that I specifically put there because of the bug were intact.

Whether or not the bug was fixed, this tells me it likely wouldn't have applied anyways so something else must have been causing the issue.

[BarryTGash]

20 hours ago, Boidster said:

I don't understand why "combination of" is dropped from people's citation of that description. The game has some tower-defense elements and if you want to play it as a TD shooter you certainly can. You can also play as a ground-based melee or M60 or explosives specialist. You can hide underground and force the Zs to chase you through tunnels. You can set up a racecourse protected by SMG turrets and run around on your motorcycle during horde night. It's not "a tower defense game", it's a zombie game which can be played using TD techniques. If you want to min/max (minimum risk/maximum zombie carnage), then TD is a very attractive strategy for sure.

 

I quoted the text verbatim in response to a query. Interpretation was left to the reader.