Idea to fix A20 farming

[bloodmoth13]

The changes:

 

In alpha 19 you could craft a seed from 5 crops and that would give you a self replenishing food source. At the start you would trade 5 immediate resources for recurring harvests.

In alpha 20 you can craft a seed from 5 crops and that would give you one harvest of 2 crops and the chance at a bonus seed to repeat the process.

 

The problem:

• The problem with farming in A19 was that once you got 5 of any crop you could create an infinite and exponential supply of crops, which undermined the survival aspect of the game.
• The solution in A20 was adding an element of randomness to harvesting which meant that there was more risk in building your infinite supply of crops.
• The problem with the A20 solution though was that farming became very inefficient. The cost of time for delayed resources should be enough of a price to pay for turning edible food into seeds for more resources, but instead we got the ability to turn 5 crops into 2 and the chance of another seed. I shouldnt need to explain why this is a bad deal.

Yes, living off the land resolves this problem entirely, but it shouldnt be mandatory to engage in farming. Farming should be viable for other specializations, trading immediate resources for future investments.

 

The solution:

 

Any solution to this problem needs to provide a fix to the problem to not only the problem in A20, but also the problem in A19. So my goal is to deal with infinite cheap food while also allowing players to turn crops into seeds without reducing their total crop yield. To do this i propose a secondary resource for planting crops: fertilizer.

 

The Recipe:

Fertilizer will be crafted with bones, rotten meat, plant fibers and nitrate (as an example recipe, values are a balancing concern).

Fertilizer will last for all 3 harvests per seed.

 

 

Also seeds will replenish naturally twice per planting (seed can only be harvested back before first harvest, harvests after first will state that the crop is 'regrowing')

 

So farming will look like this:

 

Build a farming plot that will cost 10 wood and 50 clay, craft a seed for 5 crops, plant seed into plot.

Without fertilizer the seed will provide 3 total harvests that will only yield 2 crop per harvest for a total of 6 crops for a net gain of 1 crop

With fertilizer added after planting the seed, you will add +1 per harvest, increasing the yield to 9 crops total over 3 harvests for 1 seed for a net gain of 4 crops 

 

Living off the land will increase the harvest for fertilized crops by 1/2/3, and will also reduce the cost of fertilizer 10%/20%/40%.

 

 

 

 

This would mean that to get the most out of your farms you would be required to invest other resources into your farm that have value elsewhere.

Seeds will always net a +1 so seed economy is where it should be. Fertilizer will effectively Quadruple your returns from planting a seed as you will go from having 1 crop profit to 4.

 

 

Bonus:

Can we get a chicken coup that produces eggs please?
The cost will be wood (frame), metal (wiring), plant fibers (hay) and 4 eggs (to hatch into chickens)

chickens will only lay eggs if they have been fed, chickens can eat whatever crops you no longer need and turn them into eggs. It doesnt even need to be efficient, you could put 10 corn in for 1 egg and people would still build it just to be able to access replenishable and reliable eggs for recipes that need them.

 

 

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Well it´s only a bad deal if you don´t invest enough skill points as you said. But it isn´t mandatory to have a farm to get enough food. You can easily play without farming and never starve. You see farming as a seperate thing, while it is just a part of the whole food mechanic.

 

I had tons of meat on day 20 when i started my farm and only had some minor food issues for the first 2 days. You can even get the good stuff where you need vegetables to cook it. You can loot/buy/harvest a lot of vegetables and ready cooked meals. 

 

Tell me one thing in the game where you can maximize the profit/effectivity without investing skill points and tell me why farming should be different please.

 

This might sound a bit harsh, but if you can´t afford to spend those skill points, you dificulty is maybe too high.

Edited January 11, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[bloodmoth13]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Well it´s only a bad deal if you don´t invest enough skill points as you said. But it isn´t mandatory to have a farm to get enough food. You can easily play without farming and never starve. You see farming as a seperate thing, while it is just a part of the whole food mechanic.

 

I had tons of meat on day 20 and only had some minor food issues for the first 2 days. You can even get the good stuff where you need vegetables to cook it. You can loot/buy/harvest a lot of vegetables and ready cooked meals. 

 

Tell me one thing in the game where you can maximize the profit/effectivity without investing skill points and tell me why farming should be different please.

 

This might sound a bit harsh, but if you can´t afford to spend those skill points, you dificulty is maybe too high.

How is my suggestion maximizing profit without investing skill points? Living off the land will increase yields and lower the cost of farming. You will not get max profit without it.

 

My suggestion makes the absolute baseline of farming functional and works as an introduction to the system. You build a plot, plant a seed, put on some fertilizer, harvest crops and profit. That is baseline farming, and the game needs the baseline to be functional. 

 

It would be like if melee weapons had a percent chance to hurt yourself Instead of the enemy and that only went away after investing into perks. Melee wouldn't be functional without investment, sure there are other ways to deal damage so the system isn't broken but that part absolutely is because without investment it is not functional.

 

I think my suggestion is very fair, it stops food from being free, even at max lotl, and allows easier access to it. It removes the clunky barrier of entry while lowering the ceiling of infinite free crops. It's a good system that solves both issues that I outlined.

 

If there is going to be a good food system it simply needs to be functional, and I don't think there is any real argument against that.

 

[DiegoLBC1]

6 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Yes, living off the land resolves this problem entirely.

 

 

 

Solved 🤟🏼

[Urban Blackbear]

You want higher yields from farming, invest in LoTL. Honestly, even in A20 one point in LotL and one point in Hunter will take care of most needs. Larger groups would should have a dedicated farmer anyway.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Your method has a guaranteed gain without skill points. @bloodmoth13 Just a matter of time to get infinite food without needing any skill. That´s exactly what TFP doesn´t want. If you want guaranteed infinite food it´s only fair having to invest skill points.

 

And farming is just a part of food. You act like it´s the only food source. We do have a functioning food system. It works too well to be honest, food isn´t a problem at all, wich kinda sucks for a survival game.

 

Day 4 evening, didn´t do any extra hunting besides what i saw on my travels, didn´t go out of my way for vending machines other than those i came across on my travels. I did harvest 2 farm POI´s and bought cans, vegetables and some cooked meals from the trader.

Edited January 11, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Ornias]

Once planted I wish seeds would remain. Let LoTL affect yield but remove the replanting. LoTL 1 = 2 yield, 2=3, 3=5 with a chance of an extra seed. 

[DiegoLBC1]

I didn't understand the logic of it.

 

Agriculture is not mandatory, and the suggestion is to go round and round, spend a lot of resources that could be important elsewhere, but just the investment in LoT already  solves the problem.

 

It's the same as any other skill, it's not mandatory, but it helps the game evolve, so yes, I think it's appropriate to invest points in LoT. If it's not that important and not mandatory, don't invest points on it.

 

Simple.

 

[meganoth]

Actually someone from TFP said (paraphrased) that one of the reasons for the change was that without a point in LotL farming should not be longterm viable or have exponential growth. So we can conclude a better scheme would need that at a minimum to qualify.

 

LotL 0 means you are doing what private citizens do in their own garden, i.e. buy some seeds in the supermarket, plant them and get some limited produce from it. Can that be called farming on an amateur level?

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jacknimble]

My biggest complaint about A20 farming is tedium. Adding yet another thing to plop into a plot exacerbates the issue rather than solving it.

 

It's not a yield problem. Honestly LotL isn't necessary to eat, and it's cheap enough to max out that it seems balanced enough. I just hate spending all the time to craft and replant seeds.

 

Even that gets better pretty quickly though. Once you have 20-30 meat stews in a box, just cycle a few harvests into all seeds. You'll go weeks without having to craft more (I use 10 of every crop top handle 2-3 people).

 

Just give it some time and play with it. You'll need to find a new system that works for you. But I went from -hating- the A20 changes to impartial in about 50 hours of play

[Diragor]

I Love the farming change. It's more balanced than before and I like the randomness from getting seeds from farming. They did a good job and I'm glad that food doesn't spoil. That would be more survival-like, but more frustrating too...

[Reth]

My 2 cents: I'm fine with most of the A20 farming changes. LotL lvl 3 gives you a nice productive farm. Or you can ignore the farming completely, if you don't like it.

 

[The_Black_Tower]

I think an excellent, but minor change, that would keep the system mostly as it is, but remove some of the tedium is to have lotl increase the chances of harvesting a seed.

[bloodmoth13]

8 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Your method has a guaranteed gain without skill points. @bloodmoth13 Just a matter of time to get infinite food without needing any skill. That´s exactly what TFP doesn´t want. If you want guaranteed infinite food it´s only fair having to invest skill points.

 

And farming is just a part of food. You act like it´s the only food source. We do have a functioning food system. It works too well to be honest, food isn´t a problem at all, wich kinda sucks for a survival game.

 

Day 4 evening, didn´t do any extra hunting besides what i saw on my travels, didn´t go out of my way for vending machines other than those i came across on my travels. I did harvest 2 farm POI´s and bought cans, vegetables and some cooked meals from the trader.

That just shows me that the other sources are too lucrative and not that farming is.

Farming is the only source that really requires investing time and resources and it's the only source players have direct control over.

 

Maybe you missed how my idea would work, if you don't use fertilizer then you are only gaining 1 bonus crop after 3 harvests regardless of lolt, relying only on that would take forever to build up free food and honestly wouldn't be worth the effort, but crafting fertilizer would increase the yield which would cost other valuable resources.

The system would require the and investment for imo a fair return. That is what the cost of reliable food should be.

 

You getting lucky looting tons of food and getting it cheap from other sources has nothing to do with my idea, farming NEEDS to be functional which it isn't till investing in LotL right now. 

5 hours ago, Jacknimble said:

My biggest complaint about A20 farming is tedium. Adding yet another thing to plop into a plot exacerbates the issue rather than solving it.

 

It's not a yield problem. Honestly LotL isn't necessary to eat, and it's cheap enough to max out that it seems balanced enough. I just hate spending all the time to craft and replant seeds.

 

Even that gets better pretty quickly though. Once you have 20-30 meat stews in a box, just cycle a few harvests into all seeds. You'll go weeks without having to craft more (I use 10 of every crop top handle 2-3 people).

 

Just give it some time and play with it. You'll need to find a new system that works for you. But I went from -hating- the A20 changes to impartial in about 50 hours of play

That is with lotl though wasn't it?

And with investment it basically turns back into free infinite food which imo was something that needed to be fixed as I outlined in op.

And imo the system needs to be functional without skill investment, perks need to feel good but not mandatory. With LotL farming is basically à19 farming with more steps as there is still infinite free food.

So hearing that it is good with LotL at any investment doesn't really change anything as it doesn't fix the problem of free infinite food or being viable without point investment. My problem was never that it wasn't lucrative but that actively putting effort into farming without perks is detrimental to food supply and investment in perks just reverts changes back to free infinite food.

[bloodmoth13]

5 hours ago, Diragor said:

I Love the farming change. It's more balanced than before and I like the randomness from getting seeds from farming. They did a good job and I'm glad that food doesn't spoil. That would be more survival-like, but more frustrating too...

You like a20 farming as is? Is that with perk investment or without? Because without investment crafting seeds will generally lose you food whereas with lotl it's just the same as A19 with infinite food and nothing actually changed

[DiegoLBC1]

7 minutes ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Farming NEEDS to be functional which it isn't till investing in LotL right now. 

 

You also get resources by Mining, but investing in the Mining Skills makes you get a lot more resources I don't see any difference, as you yourself say that farming is not mandatory. Likewise, you don't need to mine either, but if you do, you'll find that investing points in Mining helps a lot. It's the same thing.

[bloodmoth13]

15 minutes ago, DiegoLBC1 said:

 

You also get resources by Mining, but investing in the Mining Skills makes you get a lot more resources I don't see any difference, as you yourself say that farming is not mandatory. Likewise, you don't need to mine either, but if you do, you'll find that investing points in Mining helps a lot. It's the same thing.

Its not comparable at all! Turning crops to seeds loses crops. It's an inefficient system, it would be like mining having a 50% chance for you to lose ore from you bag, if that was the case mining would be considered broken, and at no point did I suggest removing harvest bonus perks to LotL, you still get bonuses you just need to use fertilizer which is a limiting material.

[DiegoLBC1]

Just now, bloodmoth13 said:

Its not comparable at all! Turning crops to seeds loses crops.

Agree, it's not possible to compare, mining is even worse as you can't "replant/replace iron"

17 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

 

Yes, living off the land resolves this problem entirely

 

 

Again... You said:

"Agriculture is NOT mandatory". So it is contradictory to say that it NEEDS to be fixed, and the investment in skills solves the problem.

[meganoth]

4 minutes ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Its not comparable at all! Turning crops to seeds loses crops.

 

Yes. Not comparable.

 

A farmer without LotL does NOT turn crops into seeds (if he is right in his head). He just plants seeds he finds or buys. He gets crops out of that process as well as any other farmer, just not a self-sustaining farm.

 

4 minutes ago, bloodmoth13 said:

 

 

 

It's an inefficient system, it would be like mining having a 50% chance for you to lose ore from you bag, if that was the case mining would be considered broken, and at no point did I suggest removing harvest bonus perks to LotL, you still get bonuses you just need to use fertilizer which is a limiting material.

 

[Reddevil]

wrong thread

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Reddevil (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

Simple solution:
5 units needed for a seed, 1 for the food (or 25 for a seed and keep recipes as they are now)

This means you can farm a lot from one seed, while keeping up that farm is still challenging.

[bloodmoth13]

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

Yes. Not comparable.

A farmer without LotL does NOT turn crops into seeds (if he is right in his head). He just plants seeds he finds or buys. He gets crops out of that process as well as any other farmer, just not a self-sustaining farm.

The a20 changes didn't fix the infinite food problem it merely made farming broken for anyone without living off the land. My idea fixes infinite food as a problem without breaking farming initially. Getting one free crop after 3 harvests from 1 seed isn't a realistic infinite supply of food, but it is at least profitable.

 

The cost of fertilizer to make those harvests profitable which comes from sources that need to be looted or harvested offsets the bonuses to harvesting as you are not creating resources from nothing but rather turning inedible resources into edible ones.

 

This would likely be a nerf to overall food supplies but a buff to early game food creation without making it inefficient

[pApA^LeGBa]

2 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

That just shows me that the other sources are too lucrative and not that farming is.

Farming is the only source that really requires investing time and resources and it's the only source players have direct control over.

 

Maybe you missed how my idea would work, if you don't use fertilizer then you are only gaining 1 bonus crop after 3 harvests regardless of lolt, relying only on that would take forever to build up free food and honestly wouldn't be worth the effort, but crafting fertilizer would increase the yield which would cost other valuable resources.

The system would require the and investment for imo a fair return. That is what the cost of reliable food should be.

 

You getting lucky looting tons of food and getting it cheap from other sources has nothing to do with my idea, farming NEEDS to be functional which it isn't till investing in LotL right now. 

 

 

Farming gets you the good stuff constantly. Looting/buying/hunting doesn´t do that. That´s why points are needed. For the good stuff that gives you a stamina bonus, lasts longer, heals more and even can give you an attribute bonus with the sham chowder. 

 

It just a few points. Fortitude is something where points should be put in anyways, no matter wich build you play.

 

It´s a good system, those few points you need really don´t hurt. Not at all. I do play survivalist and i don´t miss those points.

 

With fertilizer you would have a net gain of 4 guaranteed per seed. That´s infinite food with no skill invested. As we had in A19 and even more effective.  

 

Not gonna happen. TFP doesn´t want that. If you want to suggest a new method, it needs to be in a way that a guaranteed net gain needs skill points.  

Edited January 11, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[pahbi]

Any 'fix' to farming needs to reduce the excessive clicking farming now requires.

 

As an overall concept, reigning in the overwhelming amount of food farming brought in was a good idea.

 

But the current solution is just way to clicky.  I want to spend my time building forts and killing zombies, not counting seeds and constantly replanting.

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

1 minute ago, pahbi said:

But the current solution is just way to clicky.  I want to spend my time building forts and killing zombies, not counting seeds and constantly replanting.

 

I had a 20 plot farm and 10 mushrooms, took me not even 2 mins every 2 hours and i had enough food for 3 people at least.