Farming not very viable even with living off the land 3.

[Stroichik]

If u harvest 4 crops, and need 5 crops to craft a seed for replanting, how is that self-sufficient? 

 

In A19 u didnt have to spend 85% of harvest to replant seeds every time.

We didn't have to replant seeds in A19, so that we could spend more time looting and mining for bullets. Now, u always have to keep in mind, that if u get unlucky with seed drop, u wont even have enough crops to last until next harvest. unless u plant 20 plots (or more) of each type of veggie for stew. And doing so much planting every 1-2 days in game is simply a chore, which is useless for gameplay.

[Gamida]

I saw mention of eggs in some posts. Do anyone think they might nerf eggs in an upcoming patch? To me, I seem to be finding an abundance of eggs. Meat is more of a problem than eggs.

[Stroichik]

Nerf how? U get barelly 1 egg at most from a nest. Not every time too.

[Orclover]

6 minutes ago, Stroichik said:

If u harvest 4 crops, and need 5 crops to craft a seed for replanting, how is that self-sufficient? 

 

In A19 u didnt have to spend 85% of harvest to replant seeds every time.

We didn't have to replant seeds in A19, so that we could spend more time looting and mining for bullets. Now, u always have to keep in mind, that if u get unlucky with seed drop, u wont even have enough crops to last until next harvest. unless u plant 20 plots (or more) of each type of veggie for stew. And doing so much planting every 1-2 days in game is simply a chore, which is useless for gameplay.

 

I can see why they did it even if I don't agree with it.  The players (especially the experienced ones) zip through the content and run out of things to do very quickly sometimes.  Having to stop and grind out farming every few hours is one of the best ways to slow down the players progression.  Upping hunger and removing easy ways to mitigate it is the best way to force the players to slow down and handle their hunger instead of chewing through "content" like ravenous teenagers.  I don't really like it but I understand the need to do it to slow us down a bit.  Now instead of blowing through POI's and looting we will have to pause and grind farming or go out on hunting trips (way more fun that farming at least).

 

Fun loops, it always comes back to fun loops strangely enough.

[IgnyteZero]

With one seed a LotL 1 farmer can get 4 produce from a grown plant. It takes 5 produce to make 1 seed. As such the net gain of 1 plant is -1 produce, and a 50% chance of losing the first seed forever. As such it is extremely unlikely to be selfsustaining with LotL 1. Even if you had say 5 seeds you would suffer from diminishing returns. At 6 seeds you finally start to get positive produce as long as you luck out on seed loss. But the net win would be very small, only 4 produce, and you'd probably want to save them a number of ingame weeks to make sure you aren't unlucky with seed returns instead of eating them.

But even with the new loot system you won't get 6 seeds (or have 6 plots) for all the plants you need to be able to cook somethign worthwile.

This means that ALL lowlevel foods, such as baked potato, are now completely useless, food meant for the early game, because they burn the resources you will want to save to make seeds so that you later on can cook mid- and late game foods.

I am playing a two player co-op game with my wife, and we've played this game since A8/A9. She focuses on cooking and I on farming. We are now on day 15, and with LotL 3 we just started to get a positive net gain on potatoes, mushroom and blueberries. But we're still struggling with the corn. And that's with the new loot ratio for seeds in mind.
 

[ElCabong]

6 minutes ago, IgnyteZero said:

I am playing a two player co-op game with my wife, and we've played this game since A8/A9. She focuses on cooking and I on farming. We are now on day 15, and with LotL 3 we just started to get a positive net gain on potatoes, mushroom and blueberries. But we're still struggling with the corn. And that's with the new loot ratio for seeds in mind.
 

Just the opposite with me. I have lots of corn but I have very few blueberries and haven't found any potatoes yet

[meganoth]

13 minutes ago, IgnyteZero said:

With one seed a LotL 1 farmer can get 4 produce from a grown plant. It takes 5 produce to make 1 seed. As such the net gain of 1 plant is -1 produce, and a 50% chance of losing the first seed forever.

 

Your math is wrong, with a random chance you have to look at averages. With one seed a LotL 1 farmer can get 4 produce PLUS half a seed. Half a seed is worth 2 produce +1/4th of a seed. So ON AVERAGE you get 6.5 produce out of every seed.

 

Now there are no half seeds in the game, the math (like any statistical calculation) only works for bigger numbers than 1 seed. But there are many seeds in the game you can find or buy. The more seeds and produce you find and put into your farm the less likely is that your farm fails. 

 

 

 

[eXSe]

The seed thing is a bit borked at the moment, I agree, but saying: "One corn cob (or most of the crops in the game, 'cause mushrooms spread, potatoes sprout more potatoes etc.) would make enough seed to plant a whole field, therefore it should be so." would make the game too easy in the food department and remove yet another survival aspect from the table. There has to be some grind (and maybe role-play) involved to keep the players from just blowing through the content guns blazing.

 

Having said that, removing the wellness was a mistake because it was a natural, dare I say immersive, way to motivate the players to invest time into farming and cooking and have that health/stamina increase (instead of these temporary buffs that I don't like very much). Also, eating a piece of candy to not break a lockpick, or jump off a building and not get splattered into a bloody pulp is not the way to go in my opinion, but hey, I'm just one guy 🙂

 

Yes, this is a zombie game and zombies aren't real, but I don't see that as a reason to remove every semblance of realism from the game. Realism fosters immersiveness and immersiveness fosters better roleplay and gameplay in my opinion.

 

So, if you ask me... yes, farming should be grindy, but also more rewarding through quality food that would bring lasting benefits instead of these quickie buffs.

[hiemfire]

5 hours ago, bilibili-wayne said:

On agriculture, in fact, I wonder why don't you make a balance of nutrition requirements?
Hunger degrees only guarantee period of time they will not die, but the nutrient unbalance, can cause more DEBUFF, these debuffs states only need continuous 3 to 7 days of a balanced food can fade.
So the potatoes, pumpkin, mushroom, corn is a plant nutrition; Meat and eggs is eggs nutrition meat.
This farm is not strong, the dependence of players will stick to go out because of no meat or eggs.
=====

关于农业，其实我在想为什么不做成一种营养摄入的平衡需求？
饥饿度只能保证玩家段时间内不会死亡，但营养失衡的话，则会造成更多的DEBUFF，这些减益状态只需要连续吃3-7天的营养均衡的食物就可以消退。
所以目前土豆，南瓜，蘑菇，玉米是植物类营养；肉和鸡蛋是肉蛋类营养。
这样农场的依赖性就不强了，玩家会因为没有肉或者蛋而坚持外出的。

 

If my reading of the translation program mash is accurate, you are asking why they didn't change to penalizing someone for not eating in a balanced manner instead? Don't give them ideas please, .

 

With everything else a player has to do in this game, having to track down a specific food subtype, and knowing TFP they'd make it next to impossible to find one of them, to keep a crippling bar from dropping too low is a bit much.

 

4 hours ago, Stroichik said:

 Now u need to get workbench to even start farming,

 

? Farm plots and seeds can be crafted in the character inventory, what do you need a workbench for? 

 

3 hours ago, canadianbluebeer said:

Haven't gotten to farming yet, but I always waited until I had LotL 3 anyway.

 

Tedious is the way Valheim does it.  Takes a long time to get the crops up to good yields, and even then..

 

start:

Plant 300 barley seeds.

Harvest 600 barley. 

Plant 150 to get 300 seeds, net 450 to turn into flour for food.

goto start

 

Now, you start with very very few seeds to begin with, so it's a lot of plant for seeds, plant all seeds repeat until decent numbers.

(and ONIONS  gaahh!  That one was worse than turnips!)  😛

 

I will grant the old way was plant and forget.

Have to turn SOME of the harvest into seeds, but it's a balancing act.

 

 

Does Valheim ever net negative on a harvest?

[hiemfire]

27 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Your math is wrong, with a random chance you have to look at averages. With one seed a LotL 1 farmer can get 4 produce PLUS half a seed. Half a seed is worth 2 produce +1/4th of a seed. So ON AVERAGE you get 6.5 produce out of every seed.

 

Now there are no half seeds in the game, the math (like any statistical calculation) only works for bigger numbers than 1 seed. But there are many seeds in the game you can find or buy. The more seeds and produce you find and put into your farm the less likely is that your farm fails. 

 

 

 

 

So get lucky, build bigger, horde crop and seed till LotL 3 or, per the following linked comment, just plant as you find seed and use what you get from a single cycle.

[Orclover]

5 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

So get lucky, build bigger, horde crop and seed till LotL 3 or, per the following linked comment, just plant as you find seed and use what you get from a single cycle.

 

Basically suck it up 🤣.  The devs like it this way so don't expect it to change.  The only reasonable solution for groups not happy with it is to tweak the server settings in the xml file to make farming not such a grind.  Not exactly rocket science.

[cricket504]

Devs did what they have done before. "Hey, this needs a tweak." Tweak=nurf into the ground. Bow were ok, then they made feathers hard to find AND nurfed the bow's hitting power as well as add additional reload mechanic. Crossbow they added a LONG reload. In A20, there viable again... maybe too good. So I'm expecting the nurf hammer. Now there doing this to farming again. Farm plots, was the first nurf. Now this whole seed thing was the nurf sledgehammer. With 5 of us playing on the server, makes food far too tedious so going to be doing some XML editing. I already tweak the stack sizes so you don't need 400 storage crates to support the group. though in the past we did and used them to build the inner walls of the base. 

[meganoth]

43 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

 

So get lucky, build bigger, horde crop and seed till LotL 3 or, per the following linked comment, just plant as you find seed and use what you get from a single cycle.

 

As I said, with LotL 1 you are already on the positive side so only if you already assume you have bad luck and a few wasted seeds will completely destroy your chances to finish this game, then you better had wait for LotL 3.

 

If not, just plant and decide dynamically how you want to proceed depending on seed return and how valuable the specific plant for you is now and in the future. I'm hoping that eventually TFP will add a few more recipes that don't depend on the potato-and-corn combination so that whatever plant grows well can be used in some recipe without waiting for potato+corn

 

 

 

 

 

[IgnyteZero]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Your math is wrong, with a random chance you have to look at averages. With one seed a LotL 1 farmer can get 4 produce PLUS half a seed. Half a seed is worth 2 produce +1/4th of a seed. So ON AVERAGE you get 6.5 produce out of every seed.

 

Now there are no half seeds in the game, the math (like any statistical calculation) only works for bigger numbers than 1 seed. But there are many seeds in the game you can find or buy. The more seeds and produce you find and put into your farm the less likely is that your farm fails. 

 

 

 

See, that's where you are wrong. Because at the early game it IS all about that 1 seed. Statistics work for the macro perspective. Not the micro perspective.

[fragtzack]

A20 is most accurately described as "Chicken Killing Simulator 2021"

 

So if you are spending time farming...well.. no room for complains.

[Viktoriusiii]

2 hours ago, IgnyteZero said:

See, that's where you are wrong. Because at the early game it IS all about that 1 seed. Statistics work for the macro perspective. Not the micro perspective.

but as far as I can see.. .that is the point.
To make the early harder. You won't be able to infinitely produce crops once oyu have the first seed. At least it is not a garantuee. I kinda like this method.



Just for everyone who still hasn't caught up to speed.
Every harvest, you get 4 plants. You need 5 to replant. Net negative, right?
Well if it would never drop a seed, that would be correct. But every 2nd time (on average) you do not need to spend 5 to replant, since you gain a seed.
1 seed costs 5 to craft. Therefor it costs 2.5 to replenish the previous seed.

Meaning you get 4 - 2.5 every harvest which is 1.5 on average.
This isn't a whole lot, BUT it is positive. But it is also not a garantee that your farm will survive if you only start with 1-2 seeds.

Which is, as far as I can tell, exactly their intention.
 

[IgnyteZero]

39 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

but as far as I can see.. .that is the point.
To make the early harder. You won't be able to infinitely produce crops once oyu have the first seed. At least it is not a garantuee. I kinda like this method.
 

 

Did you read my previous post of how this makes several early cooking recipes redundant? Who will make baked potatoes when they are no longer plentiful? Too high cost, too little reward.

And that's the issue here. Balance. It's totally fine that the early game is harder. But it's CLEARLY not balanced. Theres an EXTREME abundance of meat (which is super easy to get), but vegetables are now super hard to get until the end of the early game, closing to mid-game. That is NOT balanced.

[meganoth]

21 minutes ago, IgnyteZero said:

 

Did you read my previous post of how this makes several early cooking recipes redundant? Who will make baked potatoes when they are no longer plentiful? Too high cost, too little reward.

 

Baked Potatoes was always a recipe for desperate times. In A19 I would keep potatoes for the farm instead of making them, this hasn't changed.

 

But now imagine you found a potato seed but don't plan to invest into LotL or make a big farm. Then you simply plant it,  get 2 potatoes and cook them. Done. Or you intend to farm but get more potatoes than corn through the random factor and have no other use for them (Most recipes need corn and potato as far as I remember?)

 

 

21 minutes ago, IgnyteZero said:

And that's the issue here. Balance. It's totally fine that the early game is harder. But it's CLEARLY not balanced. Theres an EXTREME abundance of meat (which is super easy to get), but vegetables are now super hard to get until the end of the early game, closing to mid-game. That is NOT balanced.

 

This I can agree to. So many bears came to my base and offered their meat. Though I had to pay for the meat with lots of ammunition. Still, if you want the better dishes you need a farm as well. And everyone can get food out of a farm at night, while hunting will be a day activity conflicting with other activities.

 

[Orclover]

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

This I can agree to. So many bears came to my base and offered their meat. Still, if you want the better dishes you need a farm as well. And everyone can get food out of a farm at night, while hunting will be a day activity conflicting with other activities.

 

I gotta admit its starting to look like ya'll aren't against easy food, just anti-vegetarian.  Lots of bear and wolf deliveries at our base lately.  Very easy to get food if you are strict carnivore.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, IgnyteZero said:

See, that's where you are wrong. Because at the early game it IS all about that 1 seed. Statistics work for the macro perspective. Not the micro perspective.

And even in the micro perspective it doesn't matter because you can find the seeds one after another, at different times. If you keep the produce from every seed you multiply your chances to really start a farm with every new seed found. So just keep planting. It may take longer but because you find more seeds in loot that may be debatable

[canadianbluebeer]

5 hours ago, hiemfire said:

Does Valheim ever net negative on a harvest?

 

no.  If you plant too close together, then the plant or seedplant dies and you get nada.

It takes a minute or two after planting to see that effect though, and once planted, tough luck. That seed is gone.

But, you always get the 2 seeds. 

 

However, if you don't have good walls, something can (and will) break in, and trash your plants.

(here, zeds ignore the plants)

 

So if it's as bad as ppl are saying, then I'd expect tweaks.  (going to the old way, um, nope!)

:D

 

 

[seagas]

I planted 4 mushrooms, zero LOTL, my first three harvests returned 1 seed, finally on my fourth harvest, I got three seeds in return. So out of 4 mushroom harvests of 4 plants, total of 16 plants, I got a return of 6 seeds. I'm no math professor, but that is less than 50%. I realize that the law of large numbers will eventually reach 50% but if you're unlucky in the beginning, you're best of waiting until you have more seeds and a high LOTL level.

[Orclover]

5 minutes ago, canadianbluebeer said:

 

 

However, if you don't have good walls, something can (and will) break in, and trash your plants.

(here, zeds ignore the plants)

 

 

 

 

Honestly it would be hilarious if wandering fat zombies would eat your crops if they come into contact with it. Force us to put up protective measures.  Deer and Pigs too, those things should honestly be a threat to crops.  Pigs can dig under walls and deer can hop a decent size fence, kiss a few plants goodbye.

[meganoth]

3 minutes ago, seagas said:

I planted 4 mushrooms, zero LOTL, my first three harvests returned 1 seed, finally on my fourth harvest, I got three seeds in return. So out of 4 mushroom harvests of 4 plants, total of 16 plants, I got a return of 6 seeds. I'm no math professor, but that is less than 50%. I realize that the law of large numbers will eventually reach 50% but if you're unlucky in the beginning, you're best of waiting until you have more seeds and a high LOTL level.

 

With zero LotL one should never convert mushrooms to mushroom seeds, you can't really win in the long run. Just use the produce.

 

But waiting for seeds is not neccessary, that was what I was speaking about in my last post. It doesn't matter if you plant 5 seeds at the same time or 5 seeds one after the other whenever you find them.  You only can observe the seed return ratio much easier in the first case.

 

[ElCabong]

I just planted 11 mushrooms. I'll harvest them tomorrow and post back here about my results. One data point doesn't tell us anything but if I keep coming back over, say 5 days, if we have 5 days before the next update. Lol.

 

We'll get an idea about how big you need to make your farm before it's going to work.