Jump to content

I have a forge problem


Maharin

Recommended Posts

 

5 minutes ago, Solomon said:

 

He made a perfectly valid point, there shouldnt be instances in looter games where you need a item what can only be crafted with the previous item. Its a design oversight and an easily fixable one too.

 

This is strictly your opinion. It is not a design oversight, it's a design choice to disallow players focusing on crafting to the exclusion of all else.

 

You may disagree with the choice, but it's not a mistake and it's not objectively wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Solomon said:

I gotta say that now that you said it, the whole thing does sound stupid as hell.

 

You need A to craft B but you need B to craft C what is requied to make A.

 

He made a perfectly valid point, there shouldnt be instances in looter games where you need a item what can only be crafted with the previous item. Its a design oversight and an easily fixable one too.

 

We already can make a campfire so all we need is a recipe what uses lots of coal, clay and some iron to make a pipe. Its easy as hell and prevents any kind of future problems what impossible designs could cause.

Tape and short iron pipes can be looted from trash bags.

 

Even if he removed ALL pois from his map, he can still make a forge, a campfire, and a cooking pot. He will just need to spend time finding the components he needs. It will be harder that vanilla, which makes sense because he modded the game to be harder than vanilla.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think in the grand scheme of things the circular requirement for pipe/wrench/forge is a moot point in the vanilla game as stated by many folks.  If I had to guess, its probably a gameplay decision to prevent players from churning out a forge too early in the game given what the forge gives players (e.g. repair kits, etc.).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Gideon said:

Workbenches also require a wrench, which can only be built at a workbench or looted. Some things seem to require a recipe to unlock, or to be looted.

 

Several things are only available through loot. If you like to use game settings that cripple your ability to find things through loot, then it might just be a limitation of your play style that you have to accept.

You can make a wrench without a workbench.  There is a perk for it and it can be made from your inventory now:

<recipe name="meleeToolSalvageT1Wrench" count="1" tags="learnable,perkSalvageOperations">
	<ingredient name="resourceForgedIron" count="12"/>
	<ingredient name="resourceMechanicalParts" count="4"/>
	<ingredient name="resourceDuctTape" count="2"/>
	<effect_group>
		<passive_effect name="CraftingIngredientCount" level="2,6" operation="perc_add" value=".5,2.5" tags="resourceForgedIron,resourceMechanicalParts,resourceDuctTape"/>
	</effect_group>
</recipe>

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/1/2020 at 10:06 PM, Kyonshi said:

What the f...

 

I didnt attacked you. The hell you're talking about? Relax buddy 🙄

Might want to reread my post.  I did not say you attacked me, I said you attacked the concept.  The circular crafting requirements I pointed out do not need to be in the game.  They could easily be removed with simple changes and no harm to anything.  But instead of people looking at that simple fact I get accused of creating the problem, which I did not.  This issue was not created by a mod as it is in the base, unmodified game.  You don't notice it in the base game because there are relatively easy workarounds, but it is still there.

6 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

You can´t balance a game for mods and vanilla.

This isn't a balance issue nor is it a mod issue.  Either TFP is fine with the circular dependencies or they are not.  Either way, I found circumstances that made the circular dependencies become a problem and thought I'd post about it.  I had no idea this thread would progress the way it has.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, katarynna said:

Tape and short iron pipes can be looted from trash bags.

 

Even if he removed ALL pois from his map, he can still make a forge, a campfire, and a cooking pot. He will just need to spend time finding the components he needs. It will be harder that vanilla, which makes sense because he modded the game to be harder than vanilla.

You are missing the entire point here. Crafter games should never have circular dependencies because it can potentially create gamebreaking bugs if one of the dependencies are missing.

 

A simple example would be a slight bug what removes pipes from the loot tables (minor edit in the xml) and boom now you have a bunch of angry players all over the forums that they cant make forges. Sure you could still bash toilets to get them but this would be enough to cause anger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you play on a map that was generated from the game itself? You didn´t use nitrogen or modded the game yourself to get fewer POI´s? I doubt that. Normal maps have loads of POI´s. There is always enoug POI´s in reach if you use vanilla maps.  If you used nitrogen or  modded the game in any way to get a map with fewer POI´s, it is a self made mod problem. @Maharin

 

And as said already: This game is designed with the intention to loot POI´s. They don´t want people to sit in the wilderness avoiding zombies. You would render the whole game to something completly different if you can just avoid places where zombies are. You need mods for your problem. TFP won´t give you what you want.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

So you play on a map that was generated from the game itself? You didn´t use nitrogen or modded the game yourself to get fewer POI´s? I doubt that. Normal maps have loads of POI´s. There is always enoug POI´s in reach if you use vanilla maps.  If you used nitrogen or  modded the game in any way to get a map with fewer POI´s, it is a self made mod problem. @Maharin

 

And as said already: This game is designed with the intention to loot POI´s. They don´t want people to sit in the wilderness avoiding zombies. You would render the whole game to something completly different if you can just avoid places where zombies are. You need mods for your problem. TFP won´t give you what you want.

 

 

Once again, this thread was NEVER about the mods or game balance.  I was simply pointing out that there are circular dependencies in the crafting recipes.  The only mod I used was NitroGen to make the map I was playing on, nothing else.  The map structure help me pinpoint the underlying problem of "you need A to make B and you need B to make A".  

 

I wish everyone would stop trying to make this thread into some big gripe against TFP or 7DTD because it isn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Solomon said:

You are missing the entire point here. Crafter games should never have circular dependencies because it can potentially create gamebreaking bugs if one of the dependencies are missing.

 

A simple example would be a slight bug what removes pipes from the loot tables (minor edit in the xml) and boom now you have a bunch of angry players all over the forums that they cant make forges. Sure you could still bash toilets to get them but this would be enough to cause anger.

I think you are missing the point. This is NOT a pure crafting game. It is a blend of multiple genres. And the fun pimps have specifically designed the game so that you can not craft everything without looting. 

 

If there were "a slight but what removes pipes from the loot table" there would not be a bunch of angry players all over the forums complaining that they can't make forges. Those players would get their iron pipes from smashing toilets with their stone axes. The only players affected would be the 0.0001% who modded their game to include no pois.

 

31 minutes ago, Maharin said:

Once again, this thread was NEVER about the mods or game balance.  I was simply pointing out that there are circular dependencies in the crafting recipes.

While true, TFP's design decisions include using looting and salvage to get the items you need for many recipes. Since even with your map, you can still make a forge if you loot enough trash bags or scout further to find one of the rare pois on your map, i think it's ok as is. To me, it's interesting that a change such as the one you made with your map had the unintended consequence of making simple things like cooking pots and forges much more difficult to obtain early game. It seems to change the gameplay much more than i would have thought. Good luck finding what you need!

 

I would be interested in hearing about any other challenges you come across with a limited poi map that you didn't anticipate when you started it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Solomon said:

 

He made a perfectly valid point, there shouldnt be instances in looter games where you need a item what can only be crafted with the previous item.

 

But that situation does not exist. Pipes DO NOT need to be crafted to make a forge. Hell they're so common I scrap em instantly upon looting them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

But that situation does not exist. Pipes DO NOT need to be crafted to make a forge. Hell they're so common I scrap em instantly upon looting them.

No, the circular dependencies exist even in vanilla.  Whether they impact your play style or not is irrelevant.  It's there and it doesn't need to be there.  It's easy to mod in a fix (I posted one possibility earlier) but the point is still valid that it probably shouldn't be set up that way in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, katarynna said:

I think you are missing the point. This is NOT a pure crafting game. It is a blend of multiple genres. And the fun pimps have specifically designed the game so that you can not craft everything without looting. 

 

If there were "a slight but what removes pipes from the loot table" there would not be a bunch of angry players all over the forums complaining that they can't make forges. Those players would get their iron pipes from smashing toilets with their stone axes. The only players affected would be the 0.0001% who modded their game to include no pois.

You do know that toilets are part of the loot table?

 

If a bug removes the pipes from the loot table that means you dont find pipes anywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your problem is that you don´t want to loot. In a game where you are supposed to do so. Again: The circular dependencies exist so that people do not avoid zombies by living far away from cities not entering POI´s. You try to dodge that by using a modded map and want TFP to change that. It needs to be there in order to confront players with enemies.

 

This problem doesn´t exist on vanilla maps. It is a mod problem. And that you want to play a different game. This game is about looting. Don´t want it any other way personally. 

 

If you want to avoid looting you need a another mod for your modded map. It´s not going to happen that you can play the game without entering any POI, still beeing able to build  a huge base against the horde.

 

Also the whole story line will revolve around traders and the white river citizens vs the duke and his bandits. With quests beeing a part of it, that for sure will include POI´s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Again: The circular dependencies exist so that people do not avoid zombies by living far away from cities not entering POI´s.

Where exactly did you get this information?  I think you want this to be true so you are projecting it as truth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Go and read the devs diary. You play a game that highly concentrates on looting and don´t like it. I think you are the one who is projecting here. You actually want to play something else. Rising world has what you want i think.

 

What happens if you can build everything from scratch and don´t need to loot? You can stay away from the enemies. That is for sure not what TFP has planned for this game.

 

Do you think they create all those dungeon style POI´s with pathes and hidden loot just for fun? There is even a perk that is just about looting and looting has it own book series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Solomon said:

You do know that toilets are part of the loot table?

 

If a bug removes the pipes from the loot table that means you dont find pipes anywhere.

 

Bugs have to get fixed. I could postulate a bug that makes you fall through the world (actually there was once a bug like that in 7D2D). Does that mean the game has to provide a safety net below the world ? Sorry no, it needs the bug fixed.

 

3 hours ago, Maharin said:

Where exactly did you get this information?  I think you want this to be true so you are projecting it as truth.

Second part of this post by madmole. By lucky coincidence he talked about this topic, AGAIN.

 

 

I don't think TFP thinks there is any difference between "looting"/scraping the earth and scraping a car or stuff in POIs. It is one world providing the materials, whether once made by humans or being a natural resource.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Solomon said:

You do know that toilets are part of the loot table?

 

If a bug removes the pipes from the loot table that means you dont find pipes anywhere.

Would a bug in loot tables automatically also affect salvage tables? Maybe, maybe not.

 

If it only affected loot tables but not salvage, most people would not even notice. If you need a short iron pipe, you don't go looking for it in random loot. You harvest it from a toilet or car pre-forge and make them in the forge after you have one.

 

And if there were a bug that removed short iron pipes from loot, it would need to be discovered, confirmed, and fixed asap anyways. That is not a reason to separate the dependencies between crafting and looting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Maharin said:

Then you have choices and aren't forced to loot or to craft.  Crazy idea, eh?

Oh now you want crafting gone too? So you actually want to play a pure FPS. Wrong game buddy. Wrong game.

 

You need to accept that this is never going your way. They will force you into POI´s. The story line will do that. You need another mod.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/2/2020 at 9:26 PM, Maharin said:

You can make a wrench without a workbench.  There is a perk for it and it can be made from your inventory now:


<recipe name="meleeToolSalvageT1Wrench" count="1" tags="learnable,perkSalvageOperations">
	<ingredient name="resourceForgedIron" count="12"/>
	<ingredient name="resourceMechanicalParts" count="4"/>
	<ingredient name="resourceDuctTape" count="2"/>
	<effect_group>
		<passive_effect name="CraftingIngredientCount" level="2,6" operation="perc_add" value=".5,2.5" tags="resourceForgedIron,resourceMechanicalParts,resourceDuctTape"/>
	</effect_group>
</recipe>

 

I'll have to double check, but I'm pretty sure you need a workbench AND to have the recipe unlocked.

If not, I'm overjoyed. We're locked behind needing a wrench right now in our game. Not that we don't have recourse to address this. Just have to knock out quests to build up dukes so we can buy them if they don't drop from loot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a lot of people in this thread are arguing just to argue. I said it before and it's still true: the circular dependency is not a bug, mistake, or design oversight - IT IS A CHOICE.

 

TFP made that choice deliberately. You are within your rights to disagree with that choice and change it.

 

That is all. Thread over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...