Pay to Improve instead of Earning it

[crazywildfire]

I just would like to know how the LBD wasn't cheesey? I don't care about how it could of been, would of been, should of been or anything like that all I want to know it actually was in game it wasn't cheesey.

 

Oh look I can spam craft 10000 stone axes to make better steel axes. Oh look I made 10000 axes now I got some xp that gives me points now I can have more stamina. I can literally go on and on, both systems has its ups and downs but please don't pretend like LBD was peachy king. I for one hated for how it was. Sure it might of been a great thing if worked on more but can't miss what wasn't there.

 

I hope a few more changes/adjustments get done to the system we have now and be good to go.

 

 

Edit: and yes I know A16 removed the spam crafting and some stuff to a degree but my points stand that the LBD was still just as cheesey.

[Ghostlight]

They removed the ability to spam-craft around A16.4. So you couldn't cheeze it any more. Only the first few Stone Axes would do anything meaningful.

 

Oh look I made 10000 axes now I got some xp that gives me points now I can have more stamina.

 

You couldn't do that. More Stamina was achieved only by levelling up, and nothing to do with where you spent your points.

 

The LBD system *was* peachy in its final incarnation. The only fault as I saw it was the Armour skills since you had to take damage to improve them. This annoyed people but could have been easily fixed. Also, if you were not taking enough damage to level the Armour skills....then you didn't really need to level the Armour skills, did you?

 

Edit: and yes I know A16 removed the spam crafting and some stuff to a degree but my points stand that the LBD was still just as cheesey.

 

So you acknowledge that they removed the thing that made it cheezy but still say it was cheezy? I think the onus is on you to explain why it was cheezy and not on me to explain why it wasn't.

[Psychodabble]

I just would like to know how the LBD wasn't cheesey? I don't care about how it could of been, would of been, should of been or anything like that all I want to know it actually was in game it wasn't cheesey.

 

Oh look I can spam craft 10000 stone axes to make better steel axes. Oh look I made 10000 axes now I got some xp that gives me points now I can have more stamina. I can literally go on and on, both systems has its ups and downs but please don't pretend like LBD was peachy king. I for one hated for how it was. Sure it might of been a great thing if worked on more but can't miss what wasn't there.

 

I hope a few more changes/adjustments get done to the system we have now and be good to go.

 

 

Edit: and yes I know A16 removed the spam crafting and some stuff to a degree but my points stand that the LBD was still just as cheesey.

 

I don't see the point in complaining about the worst flaws in a fundamentally good system. NOBODY claimed LBD was implemented perfectly. If TFP had left it as it existed in A15 until Gold, there would've been plenty of complaints about it. The point is, LBD needed to be polished and balanced...not an easy job, but possible. Instead, they scrapped it completely.

[crazywildfire]

They removed the ability to spam-craft around A16.4. So you couldn't cheeze it any more. Only the first few Stone Axes would do anything meaningful.

 

 

 

You couldn't do that. More Stamina was achieved only by levelling up, and nothing to do with where you spent your points.

 

The LBD system *was* peachy in its final incarnation. The only fault as I saw it was the Armour skills since you had to take damage to improve them. This annoyed people but could have been easily fixed. Also, if you were not taking enough damage to level the Armour skills....then you didn't really need to level the Armour skills, did you?

 

 

 

So you acknowledge that they removed the thing that made it cheezy but still say it was cheezy? I think the onus is on you to explain why it was cheezy and not on me to explain why it wasn't.

 

 

I said the list can go on and on. But sorry not up to me because the system is gone and not coming back. So sorry don't have much else to say on the subject besides to me it had many flaws and I didn't like it just like you think this has flaws and you don't like it. Either way two different opinions and either way it isn't goin to change what was or what is.

[Ghostlight]

Yes you are right, but I will always reminisce fondly.

 

That LBD system we had, it wasn't just that I liked it, nope much much more. I thought - as a player of video games for 40 years now - it was one of the best such systems I have ever encountered in any video game. A work of real genius. I'm not mad, I'm mourning.

[SickPuppy]

Yer current system isn't all bad. Come home end of a long day it's lovely to see her, have a nice meal and chat about our day, I'm happy she's in my life.

 

But then the one that got away pops up in yr head from time to time. Red head, skin so smooth you had to wear anti-slip soles, u think to yourself how the hell did she slip away.

[hotpoon]

"If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor"

 

So very true. If I hadn't experience the amazing feat of genius that is A16.4's hybrid LBD/perk system, I'd be much more satisfied with the merely ok, but needs works current system.

[Roland]

So for it to make sense or satisfy us we have to impose artificial limitations on the way we play. That's not a great place to be imo. Also your suggestion doesn't work since there is no way for me to level up by cooking and only then put a point in Masterchef.

 

It’s called freedom to play as you will. And you impose artificial limitations in other areas of the game as well. You’ve posted about it and seem to take great pride and like to tell others that you can simply choose not to do it. Same here.

 

I never said that you need to actually level up from doing the action. I said you can do the action before spending the points. You have some points to spend that came from gaining xp in various activities. Cook 20 charred meat and then spend the point on Master Chef. Your skill in cooking improved after you cooked. The only difference is that you consciously did it instead of the game passively doing it in the background.

 

We got spoiled basically.

 

That explains much of the behavior exhibited.

[Brian9824]

Learning by doing worked great for action skills. It was an unbelievably HORRIBLE train wreck for any utility or non action skill to the point that you HAD to massively abuse the system and sit there and endless grind.

 

Want to level armor crafting? Well see you in 2-3 days as you sit there and craft and scrap more armor then you would use in 100 years of playing 7 days to die

 

Want to level medicine skill? Go sit on a cactus for a few days while spamming bandages

 

Want to level armor? Same as medicine

 

Etc.

 

Then if people grinded out a skill they could make purple versions of that item by day 1 being completely unbalanced.

[Ghostlight]

It’s called freedom to play as you will. And you impose artificial limitations in other areas of the game as well. You’ve posted about it and seem to take great pride and like to tell others that you can simply choose not to do it. Same here

 

Only in areas that I (and many others) consider exploits.

 

I never said that you need to actually level up from doing the action. I said you can do the action before spending the points. You have some points to spend that came from gaining xp in various activities. Cook 20 charred meat and then spend the point on Master Chef. Your skill in cooking improved after you cooked. The only difference is that you consciously did it instead of the game passively doing it in the background.

 

So now I am lying to myself? The fact would remain that if I had a point to spend, it was not earned from cooking meat, but from some non-cooking activity.

[Roland]

Only in areas that I (and many others) consider exploits.

 

 

 

So now I am lying to myself? The fact would remain that if I had a point to spend, it was not earned from cooking meat, but from some non-cooking activity.

 

Lying to yourself? We’re talking entertainment here and not something like alcoholism or mental health.... I guess it is a form of lying to yourself. But then By your definition actors on the stage are lying. Kids playing pretend are lying. People bluffing in poker are lying. Renaissance Fair goers are huge liars....

 

It’s fine. I can see you aren’t a role player or at least don’t care to employ such a use of your imagination to this game. I like doing it and am just recommending a different way of playing the game that a bit of “lying to yourself” AKA “role playing” can bring. If you are against it maybe some lurker is not and will give it a try and find the same fun I do.

[ZombieSurvivor]

Lieing is bad....

 

 

....lol....

 

The Danger of Telling LIES To Yourself - Jordan Peterson - https://youtu.be/-2S6GpOCOi4

 

Just joking....

[Dimpy]

I propose we start calling the current system "learning by wanting" because whatever skill you want or that happen to be tactically useful at the moment are the ones that get improved.

[Brian9824]

Also people forget the flip side. Once you say max out your sledgehammer skill is it really fair to punish the player by not giving him any progress by using his sledge? Sure it might be more realistic, but realistic isn't always fun.

[Hollowprime]

I propose we start calling the current system "learning by wanting" because whatever skill you want or that happen to be tactically useful at the moment are the ones that get improved.

 

That would imply you can level and gain whatever skill you wanted.

You double the experience you need every ~14 levels.

With current experience gain leveling in a normal pace caps at around level 80.

[Ghostlight]

Lying to yourself? We’re talking entertainment here and not something like alcoholism or mental health.... I guess it is a form of lying to yourself. But then By your definition actors on the stage are lying. Kids playing pretend are lying. People bluffing in poker are lying. Renaissance Fair goers are huge liars....

 

It’s fine. I can see you aren’t a role player or at least don’t care to employ such a use of your imagination to this game. I like doing it and am just recommending a different way of playing the game that a bit of “lying to yourself” AKA “role playing” can bring. If you are against it maybe some lurker is not and will give it a try and find the same fun I do.

 

Would I be lamenting the loss of LBD if I was happy to "roleplay" round its removal? Sheesh.

 

I think the fact you are having to roleplay around the new system to get some satisfaction or fun (or whatever) from it speaks volumes.

[jdm311]

Lying to yourself? We’re talking entertainment here and not something like alcoholism or mental health.... I guess it is a form of lying to yourself. But then By your definition actors on the stage are lying. Kids playing pretend are lying. People bluffing in poker are lying. Renaissance Fair goers are huge liars....

 

It’s fine. I can see you aren’t a role player or at least don’t care to employ such a use of your imagination to this game. I like doing it and am just recommending a different way of playing the game that a bit of “lying to yourself” AKA “role playing” can bring. If you are against it maybe some lurker is not and will give it a try and find the same fun I do.

 

Role-playing is all well and good, but a player thrives on efficiency. In 7d2d, you want to spend your time wisely doing things you need to do to survive. The game rewards you for looting, killing zombies, mining, building, etc. and steers you toward doing the actions that will most efficiently benefit you. Doing an action that doesn't benefit you for doing it is inefficient when you can go about another unrelated way to get the desired outcome while still gaining rewards. Forcing yourself to play inefficiently because the game no longer feels like progression is gained logically is unnatural. For example, I could role-play to mine before upgrading mining skills, but it's much more efficient to put points into miner 69er and mother lode before mining because there are better returns. I can loot and clear zombies from POIs to earn the skill points to put into those skills.

[DMPlayin]

When I read that, I thought "That's exactly the problem". For me, the game was great before A17. Now, it is becoming just another common game.

 

100% this.

 

In Eric Bischoff's autobiography (and for those that don't know, he's the only man who has even beaten wrestling kingpin Vince McMahon at his own game), he said that when creating Monday Nitro to compete, they either had to be better than, worse than or different than.

 

Couldn't be better than. The WWE had been around for a lot long longer and were much bigger.

 

Couldn't be worse than. No one would have ever given them a chance.

 

So they went with different and different made them stand out and for fans of WWE to switch their allegiance.

 

 

 

I don't expect TFP to compete with the dozens of people working at Rockstar Games or Bethesda (and when I say Bethesda, I mean Skyrim and Fallout 4 Bethesda) and while I think they're doing an absolutely amazing job with a much smaller group, they made a mistake when they tried to make their game like others instead of keeping what was good about it being so different it stood out.

[Roland]

efficiency

 

ding ding ding! And here we have the true motivating factor for LBD. When it comes down to it all the talk about wanting the feeling of progressing by doing pales to the actual desire to be efficient and have a system in place that can be exploited for the sake of efficiency.

 

Did I like LBD just fine? Yes. Because I played the game organically and so it really was no different than how I play now or how I played before it was implemented. But do I think it was good for the game? Nope. LBD became the reason for the game existing instead of simply the method of progressing. The idea of progressing by spamming something repeatedly overwhelms the game in unnatural ways because the desire for efficiency is too strong to resist for those whose whole purpose for doing things is to skill up.

 

This was so apparent on the forums when you were able to view threads about the gameplay before Alpha 11 and then after Alpha 11. Post Alpha 11 more and more threads were about gaming the system to gain maximum efficiency even if it meant playing in non-realistic ways for an actual survivor of an apocalypse.

 

Now, I don't personally care if all someone lives for is to get xp and skillpoints as quickly and efficiently as they possibly can but I can understand that the developers didn't want their game to be viewed as a game about efficiency spamming of repetitive activies.

 

I also hope that there will be mods that return the feature for those people who want to feel the rewarding feeling of efficient power leveling. I will definitely play that mod as well.

[Roland]

Would I be lamenting the loss of LBD if I was happy to "roleplay" round its removal? Sheesh.

 

I think the fact you are having to roleplay around the new system to get some satisfaction or fun (or whatever) from it speaks volumes.

 

I don't have to. I choose to sometimes and choose not to other times. Freedom.

[Hollowprime]

I think a mixed LBD + level up points would be great. Example: You'd have to plant and caress a lot of plants and crops to level up farming. You'd have to cook a variety of things to level up cooking. You'd still have to use melee and ranged weapons to level them up and you'd have to mine to learn how to use mining tools.

Perhaps even have the ability to upgrade current weapons as you use them which would require a lot of rare materials.

However you can only level up the very basics of those abilities. You'd have to focus only on a small number of special perks. .

It looks similar to the old LBD but the difference is you can't level up mining, but only miner 69er and motherload. You can craft higher quality tools by progressively upgrading the previous tool but you can't add more mods to them without perks.

You can craft and upgrade all armors maybe even military but you can't add mods to them without perks.

Also the more you run and act with a heavy armor the lighter it becomes.

You become more deadly on headshots by dealing said headshots and so on.

 

But it's possible this would require a tremendous revamping of the current perk system. I'm not sure the devs want to take that approach anymore. They instead prefer to remove crafting components and complexity from the game.

 

Edit: Another approach would be to have the attributes level up by doing things in their category as they are now and they would be independent from leveling up. However, the perks as we have them now would require skill points gained from leveling up. Leveling up could be possible only by killing zombies and doing quests . You'd have more skill points at first but you'd still have to get your ass out there and kill things and do quests and stuff.

 

Everyone should be happy with those changes.

[BlueButterfly98]

Lying to yourself? We’re talking entertainment here and not something like alcoholism or mental health.... I guess it is a form of lying to yourself. But then By your definition actors on the stage are lying. Kids playing pretend are lying. People bluffing in poker are lying. Renaissance Fair goers are huge liars....

 

It’s fine. I can see you aren’t a role player or at least don’t care to employ such a use of your imagination to this game. I like doing it and am just recommending a different way of playing the game that a bit of “lying to yourself” AKA “role playing” can bring. If you are against it maybe some lurker is not and will give it a try and find the same fun I do.

 

Look man, we get you feel defensive about the new system but there's no need to be mean. We liked the old system, we know it's not coming back. But that doesn't mean we won't miss it. Cool off a bit.

[Weyrling]

That would imply you can level and gain whatever skill you wanted.

You double the experience you need every ~14 levels.

With current experience gain leveling in a normal pace caps at around level 80.

Yeah I enjoyed the old system's soft-cap on player potential, you could become decent at everything if you played long enough even without grinding like a madman.

 

Now we basically have a hard-cap since you need about 1.3million exp to get to level 100, while level 200 requires 3billion exp, level 250 is 36billion (more) exp and nobody is going to legitimately get to level 300 because it's another 100billion+ exp on top.

Cumulatively it costs roughly 147 billion experience to reach level 300 and while making it nigh-impossible to become good at everything is fine, making it practically impossible to even become decent at everything seems a bit excessive.

 

You actually have to grind way more to become reasonably good at things compared to the past, it's just that this grinding isn't specific to what you want to be good at, and instead involves killing tens of thousands of zombies (or making several million block structures from scratch, for a pure builder).

 

On the bright side atleast gear progression is way easier, except of course how weapon+armor crafting has been relegated to a mid-game activity which eventually becomes obsolete.

I still don't get why they'd add in a component system but still just spawn in fully-functioning gear, you need to scrap so many tools to make a new tool that you're nigh-guaranteed to loot a Q5 tool before you can craft one.

 

If half (or 3/4) of all equipment you would normally loot was instead just components it would require looters to loot more but crafters to loot less, which seems more sensible than requiring crafters to loot so much there's no reason to craft anymore.

Which relegates gear-crafting to the bad luck last-resort of gear acquisition. As opposed to the infrastructure+resources shortcut of gear acquisition it should be.

[Roland]

Look man, we get you feel defensive about the new system but there's no need to be mean. We liked the old system, we know it's not coming back. But that doesn't mean we won't miss it. Cool off a bit.

 

In what way shape or form was the post you quoted mean? You’re inventing stuff now which isn’t nice.

 

Now I feel a bit defensive...

[HungryZombie]

Oh I don't hate it as such. But I find it bland, silly, generic, boring , unimmersive and unsatisfying.

 

Also I just built my first Gyrocopter, took off for the first time, then promptly pressed 'E' when trying to remember how to point the nose down. And the fall killed me, so I'm in a BAD MOOD. Grrr

 

What happened to the Gyrocopter?