snatchedalmond Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 What I understood from all that ♥♥♥♥ing nonsense was that devs want us to craft higher tier loot, and not leave our base, so in order to do that are going to nerf loot that you find to the ♥♥♥♥ing ground so that we only find Q1 and Q2. Doesn't that incentivize us doing the complete opposite? Can't find better than orange so ♥♥♥♥ it, I'll just stay in my mine and craft my own Q3-Q5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synvastian Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 What I understood from all that ♥♥♥♥ing nonsense was that devs want us to craft higher tier loot, and not leave our base, so in order to do that are going to nerf loot that you find to the ♥♥♥♥ing ground so that we only find Q1 and Q2. Doesn't that incentivize us doing the complete opposite? Can't find better than orange so ♥♥♥♥ it, I'll just stay in my mine and craft my own Q3-Q5. you'd still need to loot the Q1-4s for parts to make a Q5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camelCase Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Ok, I think TFP should really sit up and take notice of this whole thread. Not only is it a popular subject, but it's a controversial one with most people sitting on one side or the other. When the change was introduced to allow T6 quality, what happened? Not much... most people figured since the gun parts still needed to be looted it wouldn't be a repeat of previous alphas. It was a fair change, and it wasn't even given a chance: removed a couple of days after. I'd say maybe 1% of players have enough free-time during the working week to spend that much time on the game and see what the actual impact on the game would be. The annoying thing is that the most popular playstyle (shooter/looter) would have seen ZERO change. Those people that play that way exclusively seem to be taking issue with it cheapening the way they play the game and FALSELY claming the only people that support T6 crafting want to hide away in their base like a little b*tch. Complete straw-man argument and completely unfounded in reality and I hate seeing it; crafters still need to go out and find the raw materials and invest alot of their points for the privilege- foregoing other skills. Consider the player that puts all their time and points into crafting... what's left for him mid/end game? Will they bother crafting another T5 again once they've found a T6 (or had one gifted to them when in a group with a looter who finds them literally littering the world). The fundamental point of this argument is that half of us are trying to highlight an inbalance in the game and the other half just want their way of playing to be the only way of playing; like going into a twitch stream and screaming instructions at them. The odd few are rational. TFP; I hope you read through this thread and didn't roll your eyes too much. I hope you realise a good chunk of your audience passionately hates the decision you've made and want to feed that back without arguing with anyone. You have a playerbase in which some people love looting, some people like crafting, some people like mining and you know what? That's what makes this game awesome. If you want to jump on the loot-box bandwagon and feed the endorphines of a lucky loot to a growing number of fortnite and mobile gamers, then that's your prerogative. That may sound melodramatic, but I honestly can't see any reason why you'd pull a change without backlash and/or ignore the fact you didn't think that would annoy a significant portion of your audience. Rapidly throwing changes in and out is just giving me whiplash and less certain of the direction this game is going in. A18 was an absolutely amazing update, and I simply wouldn't be here if we were still on A17 (I'd be playing something else). I suspect the same is true for people that read about crafting T6. A portion of your playerbase became excited about the game again, came back, and this is why it's an issue 'all of a sudden'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 What I understood from all that ♥♥♥♥ing nonsense was that devs want us to craft higher tier loot, and not leave our base, so in order to do that are going to nerf loot that you find to the ♥♥♥♥ing ground so that we only find Q1 and Q2. Doesn't that incentivize us doing the complete opposite? Can't find better than orange so ♥♥♥♥ it, I'll just stay in my mine and craft my own Q3-Q5. One question, have you ever tried to build tier 3 weapons or tools? If so, you should have noticed that you need parts like tool parts. However, if you look up what you need to make tool parts, you will find that there is no recipe at all to make the tool parts. You may wonder how you want to get the tool parts. You have to go out and find or buy tools and scrap them. Since more and more parts are needed with each quality level, you will also have to find more tools to scrap to get enough parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snatchedalmond Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 you only need parts if you make steel and according to most people on this forum "steel tools are a luxury, you don't need them" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 What I understood from all that ♥♥♥♥ing nonsense was that devs want us to craft higher tier loot, and not leave our base, so in order to do that are going to nerf loot that you find to the ♥♥♥♥ing ground so that we only find Q1 and Q2. Doesn't that incentivize us doing the complete opposite? Can't find better than orange so ♥♥♥♥ it, I'll just stay in my mine and craft my own Q3-Q5. That isn’t what I said. I said that higher tier items would become more rare. I never said you would only ever find t1 and t2 items in loot forever amen. Looting stays viable as long as there is a chance to find high quality stuff and as long as you actually do occasionally find something it keeps you searching for your next lucky break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCrook1028 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 What this does (and what it has done since A18 released....there was significant pushback against the lack of impressiveness of crafting since A18 dropped) is devalue specialization. If I really want to be a miner/ranger/sniper/machinegunner/sledge-tank/etc...just ONE goal for my character progression, and I put all my points, all my effort, all my time into doing that one thing super amazing, I end up with pretty nice weapons/tools. But the absolute pinnacle of the path I really want to take? that's out of my hands. For some reason, TFP wants that equipment capstone for any path to be randomly equally available to all...no matter their focus, goal, or expenditure of time/effort towards it. ^^^This This and MORE THIS!!! That perfectly sums up my feeling also on crafting T6 weapons. I can ONLY do it after a major investment of points yet any random Joe can just find it in a box. There's something fundamentally wrong with that meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 you only need parts if you make steel and according to most people on this forum "steel tools are a luxury, you don't need them" Nobody said that either. What I said is that blue quality steel tools are awesome and endgame for crafting. Purple level steel tools are luxury and legendary to find. Who said steel tools themselves weren’t needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCrook1028 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I still can’t wrap my head around this attitude that some of you seem to have that blue level gear isn’t high level crafting. It’s almost like you think 2-5 is crap and only 6 is good. I get being disappointed that something you used to be able to do is now something you can’t do but can we at least stop with the comments that we can’t craft high level gear any more? Yes we can. Tier 5 is awesome. No, T5 is close to awesome. The Best gear is what's awesome. That last mod slot being available is what sets T6 so far above and beyond T5. Mod slots were reduced in A18 so that's the main value now imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synvastian Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 No, T5 is close to awesome. The Best gear is what's awesome. That last mod slot being available is what sets T6 so far above and beyond T5. Mod slots were reduced in A18 so that's the main value now imo. Q5 and Q6 have the same modslots no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snatchedalmond Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I've read the steel tools luxury too many damn times on this forum. I swear to god most of this forum is about stroking madmole's ♥♥♥♥ than it is about feedback. Something not fun and extremely obtuse design? NO ITS NOT BE HAPPY WITH WHAT WE GOT. A good example I think is farming, it was fine before and tilling soil made sense. Now you need to craft individual plots, using rotten meat, and you can no longer cut up corpses. There is really no reason why we can't other than TFP don't want us too. But noooooo, farming was too easy and its better now. Like hell it is. Its not impossible but it is pretty retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camelCase Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 ^^^This This and MORE THIS!!! That perfectly sums up my feeling also on crafting T6 weapons. I can ONLY do it after a major investment of points yet any random Joe can just find it in a box. There's something fundamentally wrong with that meta. Hehe yes. And don't forget most games have taken the route that finding a weapon at the bottom of a wrecked house is likely to be poor quality. The looters in here are just plain lucky that crafting isn't T6 and looting is T5. The real kicker is that we aren't even asking for that; just a fair balance. Who in their right mind ever gets upset with "balance" in a game- it's synonomous with "free DLC" at this point in terms of things you want to hear as a gamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snatchedalmond Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Who in their right mind ever gets upset with "balance" in a game- it's synonomous with "free DLC" at this point in terms of things you want to hear as a gamer. Bruh - TFP couldn't even balance one of those eagles on their finger, and they're perfectly weighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jihh Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 TFP is dealing with that other issue by making weapons and tools drop as brown and orange much more often for much longer. [...] If you wait to decide what to specialize in until after the first horde night you will have a clearer picture of the best choice to make So the new meta is to put all points of the first week into perception and lucky looter, followed by specializing on those weapons we found in that week (which ironically leads to not needing to craft them), hope that in the next 1-4 weeks (depending on the applied loot qualitiy balance) we are able to overtake looting with crafting and afterwards go back to just looting, because it's better again. Of course, those 1-4 weeks can be stretched to a longer timeframe, I'm aware of that. But why exactly can't gear crafting be a thing from the start to the end of a game? Why is it limited to a comparatively short time of the whole game experience? I don't get why we devalue a system that much right after TFP put so much work into. Wouldn't it make more sense, if every part of the game would play a role over the whole time? You don’t need to find those quotes because I remember them—but again while being a related issue it was not the same issue as what is being complained about specifically now: Not being able to craft purple tier gear. You are right, that wasn't the exact matter. But what do you think people mean, when they talk about looting being too strong? Too strong in comparison to what? As far as I remember it was about lucky looter being stronger than any perk in the other skill trees. That means it was stronger than crafting perks too. Not being able to craft q6 gear enhances that problem. And as I said, I opened my thread even before we got q6 crafting for four days. So even if we agree to disagree about how to interpret that critique in the dev diary, the "outrage" didn't just happen after we lost q6 crafting again. really high quality stuff— you know, like green and blue. If they balance all loot, crafting, rewards and sales in a way that green and blue actually is considered high quality for many weeks to come, so up until mid end game, without gamestage telling them it isn't, then not being able to craft q6 items probably isn't that much of a problem. I still don't think that's a good idea, but at least it's just a late end game thing then. Somehow I suspect an even bigger "outrage" in the forum, if item progression gets nerfed that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Your first argument is "because someone else did it and it worked." but in the past you've argued that 7dtd isn't exactly like any other game. In fact, in months of history on the forums, you tend to shoot down the comparisons of 7dtd to other games REPEATEDLY with "7dtd isn't other games, so what works in those games doesn't really mean much of anything regarding 7dtd." This seems just a BIT of a flip-flop on that position... Only if you are being disingenuous or looking at my posts superficially for the purpose trying to generate drama... First of all I was asked for the official reason which I reported. It’s not my reason and it wasn’t me talking about other games or saying this game should be like other games. I was simply reporting what the devs were saying in response to a query. Secondly, whenever I personally have argued about 7 Days being different than other games in the past it has almost always been with regards to voxels and TFP needing to capitalize more on their voxel technology. This issue has nothing to do with voxels. Thirdly, I’m not arguing here for 7 Days to be like other games. I’m telling you that the devs justified the change they wanted to make by seeing that other highly popular games have a top legendary level of gear that can’t be crafted. It can only be found. I really don’t care, myself, whether they make t6 craftable or not. I’m just giving their reasons for it because I witnessed their discussion of it. I think their plan is a good one but I’m not passionate over this issue. Asking me for the official why and then trying to catch me in some kind of waffling inconsistency when I give it to you is pretty low. But I’ll just chalk it up to you letting your emotions about crafting get the best of you. Maybe it wasn’t you who asked.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camelCase Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Bruh - TFP couldn't even balance one of those eagles on their finger, and they're perfectly weighted.Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think what TFPs have achieved with a small studio is nothing short of an extremely rare and commendable achievement. I would say that making two HUGE changes to the gameplay in a very short space of time is very confusing and worrying though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 So the new meta is to put all points of the first week into perception and lucky looter, followed by specializing on those weapons we found in that week... Whenever someone starts talking about min/max metas Im done talking to them. If you are a min/maker and are only interested in the one true path up the progression tree then you will always have problems because you will always find that razor’s edge of which side of the balancing to fall on for the most optimal and fast way to get to the end. It doesn’t matter what TFP does. It doesn’t matter what I think. As soon as you have found what you think is the optimal path you will feel forced to tread that path every single time you play. So why discuss? Sigh....The answer IMO is no. Nobody is forced to spend points in lucky looter and perception. Do that if you want (it’s a good strategy as I said) or choose something else. Is that choice the most efficient and optimal path? Maybe. Can you have fun playing sub-optimally? That is between you and your heart and your ability to role play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I would say that making two HUGE changes to the gameplay in a very short space of time is very confusing and worrying though. Happens all the time in development builds that you guys never see—sometimes on a daily basis. It’s why experimental is opt-in only. Those who are waiting for stable and not following the development don’t share the confusion or worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vapid Actions Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Whenever someone starts talking about min/max metas Im done talking to them. If you are a min/maker and are only interested in the one true path up the progression tree then you will always have problems because you will always find that razor’s edge of which side of the balancing to fall on for the most optimal and fast way to get to the end. It doesn’t matter what TFP does. It doesn’t matter what I think. As soon as you have found what you think is the optimal path you will feel forced to tread that path every single time you play. So why discuss? Sigh....The answer IMO is no. Nobody is forced to spend points in lucky looter and perception. Do that if you want (it’s a good strategy as I said) or choose something else. Is that choice the most efficient and optimal path? Maybe. Can you have fun playing sub-optimally? That is between you and your heart and your ability to role play. Just like how players could have ignored that they could have crafted q6 items and only played to loot them? Do that if you want, it was a fine strategy. going for a build that gives points specifically to looting is not "razor's edge" min-maxing. Min maxing is being able to craft q6 and crafting 500 M60's to try to get the perfect rolls. Min maxing is calculating the exact number of points to take in miner 69'er to maximize a tool's effectiveness. "more loot" when the only way to play is looting is not min-maxing, it's the only logical choice. I honestly can't say there's been a single game aside from Diablo II in which endgame loot has been drop only and I've enjoyed the game. Path of Exile is heralded for its endgame, in which there are certain items with special bonuses that are loot only, and crafting produces by far the best generic items. Seems like a fantastic balance, and it is. To defend a choice by TFP to force players into one only playstyle to get to end game by saying people could just ignore other routes they don't find as fun is..... I mean, surely you can see it, right? I don't really want to throw gasoline on the fire, I'm just trying to point out that while you're trying to be on the other side of the fence, our basic argument aligns. Crafters just wanna craft yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 you only need parts if you make steel and according to most people on this forum "steel tools are a luxury, you don't need them" And you certainly don't need tier 2 weapons like an A-47 or a SMG in the horde night. You can't craft them without parts either. All tier 2 firearms need parts. You can only craft tier 2 melee weapons without parts but to craft tier 3 melee weapons you need parts as well. For all tier 3 weapons you need not only the parts but also a separate schematic. You can not perk into tier 3 weapons. So you have to go out to find the parts and the schematic. I suggest you check the crafting menu for yourself to see what you can't make without parts you can't make, or schematics that aren't part of the perk tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 In real life in a post-apocalypse, almost no one would be able to craft a gun more advanced than a thunderbluss, unless you where a gunsmith or skilled engineer before. High level items should be seen as remnants of the old times, done by people with higher skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snatchedalmond Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 anything other than a Q1 stone axe on the highest difficulty and always run is playing the game wrong and you need to play it my way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kattla Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Just remove T6 from the loot-tables. Means highest we can get is T5, but if it is as awesome as some says it shouldn't be too big of an issue, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jihh Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 "steel tools are a luxury, you don't need them" If crafters don't need them, looters don't need them. Let's remove them from the game. Or we just realize that things can be an improvement for a game without being a necessity. If you are a min/maker and are only interested in the one true path up the progression tree I don't want to min/max, I want gear crafting to be a part of the game. You and TFP are confident that it will be after they are done, so I guess all we can do is wait and see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snatchedalmond Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Just remove T6 from the loot-tables. Means highest we can get is T5, but if it is as awesome as some says it shouldn't be too big of an issue, right? I think its more about the skill point investment. If T5 is the best, we should be able to craft it after spending the 17/18 skill points needed to max the rank out. But the way TFP see it, even if T5 were the highest, we would then be capped at crafting T4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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