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Thank you Pocket951, I got blinded by my 'existing knowledge'.

I've checked around about as much as I can, but I cant find any info - is there now supposed to be an extra step to access the laser workbench? On the latest build, DFalls-Large2-PEP I've tried moving around it to look at it from every angle to see if it's just a weird interaction box like the desks can be, but no luck.

This goes back to ad hominem, however if it puts your mind at ease knowing - my developers create office software. Primarily for inventory management, client/contact management, advertising software, and automated analysis software. Most projects range from 1-2 years, though we do offer live (ongoing) development, and software modification solutions. I started as a programmer for the company, and worked my way up through team lead, manager, and project manager. If delays are happening, project management is failing. I'm not saying it's the PM's fault either, or any individual's fault. Though if this is because of the scope of a specific deliverable is making it unable to be reasonably estimated, then the scope should be decreased for more understanding and clearer management. As a developer, I cannot understate the amount of stress I went under due to unclear scopes and lack of specific timelines. It meant I never knew when something should be done, if I'm going too slow, if I'm going too fast and start causing bottlenecks to occur which cause stress on other developers. I eventually had a stress induced stroke because of poor project management. I remember one project where there was only two deliverables set for an entire year and a half project (imagine), and it was nauseating the amount of communication required wasting time and creating stress between developers trying to keep track of where everything was. A deliverable shouldn't ever have a specific 'size', or specific 'timeline'. A deliverable should be a set of features, or functions which are dependent on each other. A single deliverable should be one "system" if you will. You should be able to look at a deliverable and say "yea, that fits into a box". For example, in A20, "Weapons, Trader progression, Loot progression" is a nice little box. Everything is related to each other, and it's all part of the same system. "Terrain improvements, Biome difficulty, Random gen update" is another nice little box. These having nothing to do with the prior box, but would require the same kind of resources. I don't have your inside view, I can't say what all the employees specialties or divisions are, so I can't create the exact boxes the TFP team would need, but the key is 'logical boxes'. When I look over the A20 updates - while I love all the stuff coming. It's not a logical box. You have some building systems work, some AI system work, some quest system rework, new content additions, a bit of everything. As far as deliverables being "haphazardly [thrown together]". There has never been a clear outline provided of what is going to be included, what the goal looks like, and features that seem core are often either abandoned in idea, or removed. This applies not only to the game as a whole, but each deliverable. One cycle "We're going to be adding 'x' to this deliverable", end of cycle "'x' has been pushed to next deliverable", then, maybe it just never comes up again. Deliverable outlines are not being either established or followed, at the very least in how they're portrayed to users. You keep changing the goalposts on this one. Remember that the initial point had nothing to do with being an employee, or an employer. It has to do with setting expectations, failing to meet expectations, and the reactions people have to said failed expectations within a common and understandable scenario. I also never made any sort of indication that TFP is in any sort of financial difficulty, only that that bankruptcy is a threat to 'any' company for failing to provide to clients, as being fired is a threat to 'any' employee who fails to provide to their employer. My observations have nothing to do with this one particular deliverable. My observations are from, well, now, years of experience with TFP and deliverable dates showing a consistent issue, how questions are answered (or not) in developer posts/videos (showing lack of defined project scope), and the release posts which are updated on the fly with features being added/removed, sometimes planned, then sometimes pushed back (showing lack of deliverable scope). Honestly, as far as interpretation goes of things being 'haphazard' goes, is due to how often TFP re-write history. They remove or delete information that they feel is no longer correct or relevant instead of clarifying it's state, and why in addition to the old information. Sometimes it's small things like on the first page here, changing the date of the expected release, deleting the old one as if it there never was an older timelines, sometimes it's more serious like the removal of the first video explaining the game's outline from kickstarter since the scope keeps changing. The one question that keeps coming up that's never had an answer is "what is gold for TFP?".

I didn't intend for this to become personal, but if you want to dangle the ham, I'll bite. I'll start by saying that this is a fairly clear ad hominem fallacy. You're stating that my input is not valid, because I am not a company like TFP, but am only an employee, which has nothing to do with the validity, or lack thereof in my remarks. However, due to your status, I respect you, and am going to take the time to offer a proper response, rather than just give you a buzzer sound like this is some sort of msn chat room. I am an employee; however, the reference was towards what it means to set expectations and the reactions to them, not TFP's existence as a boss or employee. I'm also a project manager. It's 'my' job to set the timelines, to establish expectations, and meet them. There are certainly times when I need to adjust timelines, and I need to manage those expectations with clients. In my job, I don't report to my "boss" aside from the odd beer Friday, I report directly to clients. The boss takes the payments, and as long as the payments are coming and complaints are reasonably limited, they're happy. I operate the same way TFP would, in that you don't set internal expectations, you set expectations directly with clients/customers/consumers, whichever term you want to use. I agree, my critique has been very critical of TFP, and I'm sure it bites a bit, I'm not trying to beat around the bush. One thing about setting expectations - you have to be clear. Delays, internal or external, should be the exception, not the rule. with TFP, it is a rule - multiple delays happen every release. This screams to me that there is a lack of proper project management. Scopes are not being clearly defined, work is not being clearly estimated, and no deliverables are being formed. Before I have my programmers or designers write a single line of code, or look at a single reference, I have created a clear deliverable for them to be working on. This outlines exactly what features, content, or functions are going to be included in the next push. This is discussed as a team, we cover each of the tasks within the deliverable, estimate the work required to implement it, and discuss interactions and potential conflicts. I then take that discussion, and form it into the deliverable scope, with a breakdown for each part, who should be working on it, when they should be working on it, and when it's expected to be completed by. Then, and only then does work start. During the project I touch base with my developers once a week to twice a week to check the state of each of the items so that progress, and any delays are clearly known and tracked at all times. There is also a large block of time provided between expected completion, and next deliverable start so that a.) I have time to work on the next schedule, and b.) developers have time to iron anything out still lingering. If I was expecting to release a deliverable in a month, then my team should simply be testing and bug fixing. There should not be anything at all new added within the last 20% of a deliverable's timeline. As a project manager, I also fully understand "quality concern". But this is taken into account when designing the deliverables. If something isn't up to allowable quality by the set dates, that means either the scope was breached, or the work required was underestimated to the point that not even the extra allowances were enough to cover it. as I mentioned, this can certainly happen - but not within the last 20% of a cycle, as everything should either be completed, or near completion before this point. So if there is a delay, it should be a well understood delay. Multiple delays means many things have gone wrong, which typically means the deliverable was too large to properly establish and estimate. At any point during a project, I can state all cores of what the project will be once it's complete, what each deliverable (or 'part', or 'release') of it will contain, and an outline of anticipated completion times for each deliverable. And while TFP cannot be fired, it can go bankrupt. So I don't really see how that's an easier risk than getting fired, and shouldn't be taken as seriously. An employee can get a new job, the business is gone. I certainly appreciate your disregard for random people's discussions regarding a project's progress, though actions do speak louder than words. I'm not the one repeatedly adding delays to deliverables. I love the game, I love the content, and I currently do want to continue supporting it. I simply explained what I believe is causing the failure to meet expectations based on my professional experience and training. If proper project management were occurring, we would not be seeing the types of regular delays we are, among other things. I said earlier I didn't want to turn this into a discussion about what project management is and means, but like a feral knocking at my front door: if you're going to try to call me out on my home ground, I'm going to have to answer. TFP can run things however they want, but it doesn't mean the criticism is invalid.

It was stated to be releasing end of october, then november, now december. These were statements by official TFP team members, on the official A20 development resource, on the official TFP website on when A20 would be expected to release. Try working a job, telling your boss "Yup, I should have that done this week", then twice you delay it, and your only excuse is "well, I never gave you a specific day, so really you shouldn't have any sort of expectations of it being done" and see how long you hold the job. Once again, I'm not personally upset at it, because I don't set expectations for TFP being well used to this kind of thing by now, but "not stating a specific day" is not a valid excuse for delays.

Remind me how well cyberpunk and anthem are doing? I honestly don't know, because their system didn't work for me and I stopped paying attention to them. Cyberpunk a year after the trailer without any sort of updates except for "no known release", then when it did release, at that point I couldn't care less. Anthem - never been a pubg player, but from what I understand it's really only console players still playing, and even then not a whole lot. I also didn't mention "major updates", I mentioned "deliverables". As I was talking about projects, not products. I don't want to derail into a conversation about what project management and deliverables are. If you're interested in it, use the terms "Scrum", "kanban", or "agile" + "project management" for more information on how project management works. Again, I don't really have a problem with what they're doing - I see it as "We just want to keep making a cool game, so lets just keep adding cool stuff", rather than "We're a business making a product". I was just mentioning why it can be easy to get upset regarding it.

The problem is that The Fun Pimps have a long history of absent project management. Lack of roadmap, lack of planned deliverables, massive scope creep, multiple failed release dates for deliverables, etc. For example, A20 has been officially delayed two times and will be the first content deliverable in over a year. This is something that simply would not in any way, shape, or form fly for any larger development studio, and so people on average don't expect it, and can be upset by the unexpected. In The Fun Pimp's case, I'm not going to defend the lack of project management, but I will also say - "It's none of my f'n business". If they take to long that I lose interest and forget about the game, then their practices failed. As long as I still pay attention for patches, then it may be messy; but it's not failing for me at least. If it's failing for other people and customers / potential customers are being lost because of it - naught to do with me, and I can't presume. Maybe at the end of the day, they don't care about running it like a business, and they just want to have fun making whatever they want to make, and get it out when they get it out. We shouldn't expect them to operate like a business regarding it. At the end of the day, I'm still here. You're here. Even if you're here complaining, you're here. You've remembered the game, and you're wanting more. Sounds to me like things are at this point still working just fine for us. Here's looking towards less skippable PoI's and more adjustable difficulty!