City Atmosphere and Danger

[Moldy Bread]

I may have made a thread about this but it's been a while and I have forgotten.

 

I have to put forward my desire to see the return of atmospheric and dangerous large cities.

 

It used to be that large cities which held the best buildings and as such the best loot were very dangerous and had a permanent green, hazy and unsettling atmosphere. For those of you who are newer and unsure as to what I mean, watch this and skip too

47:17 and

 

The moment they enter the city the atmosphere changes, they also come under attack... Because they are idiots and cannot be discreet.

 

These cities used to be full of the most dangerous zombies, including dogs, cops and ferals.

 

Since the inclusion of more random cities and sleeper zombies these cities are now a cake walk, a new player can easily cheese it and get all the best stuff on day one.

 

I think by sacrificing the standard square layout and wandering zombies these cities have lost all atmosphere and danger.

 

It used to be scary but also exciting as you entered a city at a low level and you knew right away you were in danger. It was a sense of dread and you knew a dog could rip your face off at any moment.

 

I do not see why these large cities cannot generate their own special wasteland biome.

 

I'm hoping in the future we could see the return of these cities along with the dangerous wandering zombies. Yes I understand that the devs prefer sleepers but let's be honest... As long as you sneak sleepers of any stage pose no threat. But both wandering zombies and sleepers, there's a match made in heaven.

 

Do you guys agree, or disagree?

[n2n1]

I know what you're talking about.

That's what I'm trying to get back. If you do not mind mods - then check out the "Classic Style Hardcore" - I'm working on what would return these feelings.

Because I don't think you'll feel it in vanilla anymore

 

PS: Oh, no, not the green smoke .

[Moldy Bread]

I know what you're talking about.

That's what I'm trying to get back. If you do not mind mods - then check out the "Classic Style Hardcore" - I'm working on what would return these feelings.

Because I don't think you'll feel it in vanilla anymore

 

PS: Oh, no, not the green smoke .

 

I would sign up to that, but the issue is most mods add a bunch of other stuff as well. Ravenhearst for example is good, it adds back gun parts (though you can't upgrade them) but also adds a bunch of other things I am uninterested in.

 

What other things does your mod add?

[Wyrda78]

Agree. My strat is to raid the hospital on day 1-2. Cities should be far more dangerous, because logically they are the epicentre of the infection.

[pApA^LeGBa]

I am with you here. Should go from those little crossroad "villages" we had when infinite maps where a thing (like 2-4 buildings), up to cities with villages and smaller towns inbetween. They bigger it get´s the more dangerous it should be.

 

Depending on the size of the city/town/village there is max "Level" for the POI´s that can spawn there. (higashi tower and such exclusive to cities and maybe bigger towns)

[Viktoriusiii]

yeah... definatly +1 from me.

 

 

I remember in A10-12 where I played singleplayer and cities were endgame zones. Without a gun (which was much rarer, because you had to find gunparts first) you couldn't get in there.

 

Or when I played on multiplayer (where there are way less zombies) I still had to sneak all the way because the atmosphere was so creepy.

When I then heard gunshots from far away my heart was pumping like mad!

 

Now cities don't really feel like cities... they mostly have the same buildings, there is only 1 maybe 2 high buildings in them... and it just doesnt feel menacing anymore!

[Ornias]

100% agree. I am raiding cities day 1 with stone axes and its just boring.

[Moldy Bread]

It's doubtful that the devs will take our concerns onboard. They will just dismiss it. Looks like mods will save the day again.

[RestInPieces]

Agree. There's a lot to say here, but the gist is that the world feels flat when most things are governed by the player's GS and biomes are barely different when it comes to lootlists or enemies. Let's hope Jax will find the game salvageable post-release and update his overhauls.

[Viktoriusiii]

Agree. There's a lot to say here, but the gist is that the world feels flat when most things are governed by the player's GS and biomes are barely different when it comes to lootlists or enemies. Let's hope Jax will find the game salvageable post-release and update his overhauls.

 

I do like leveled enemies. Even Skyrim or Oblivion ones...

It is valid gamedesign... if done right.

 

But they have taken the biggest flaw of Oblivion (namely ridicoulus scaling so that on day 50 you face radated cops only instead of making the spawn bigger because that can't be handled)

and have NOT taken the Idea of "harder Zones" to heart. (yes those were in the elderscrolls games. Certain dungeons were MUCH harder than others)

Yes certain POIs have stronger Z's... or Quests even have "bosszombies".

But there is no "land -> easy" "village -> medium" "town -> hard" zones anymore.

They replaced roaming zombies with sleepers. Which makes traversing a town basicially safe.

 

This has been said over and over and over again, and I know that it was a performance thing but:

put 80% of all the sleepers on the street, give us "fake sleepers" that replace the 80% and are simple corpses and now we are golden.

You can even bind them to the poi. So bigger pois have more Z's outside, therefor cities with big POIs automaticially have higher Z spawn.

[n2n1]

///

What other things does your mod add?

Very much This is a complex mod.

To add one feature - there are modlets.

[SevenDaysToDieModEditor]

I also think that a strong zombie should appear in a big city.

I think it would be boring to get to a big town and get everything from the first day.

 

So I made a mod that cop and zombie dog appear in city and town.

 

It is still alpha 16, but please play if you like.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?48140-A16-7-days-to-die-mod-editor

[Dimpy]

+1

Without the challenge posed from wandering zombies, what is a city but a level selection menu with good graphics?

[RestInPieces]

I do like leveled enemies. Even Skyrim or Oblivion ones...

It is valid gamedesign... if done right.

 

But they have taken the biggest flaw of Oblivion (namely ridicoulus scaling so that on day 50 you face radated cops only instead of making the spawn bigger because that can't be handled)

and have NOT taken the Idea of "harder Zones" to heart. (yes those were in the elderscrolls games. Certain dungeons were MUCH harder than others)

Yes certain POIs have stronger Z's... or Quests even have "bosszombies".

But there is no "land -> easy" "village -> medium" "town -> hard" zones anymore.

They replaced roaming zombies with sleepers. Which makes traversing a town basicially safe.

 

This has been said over and over and over again, and I know that it was a performance thing but:

put 80% of all the sleepers on the street, give us "fake sleepers" that replace the 80% and are simple corpses and now we are golden.

You can even bind them to the poi. So bigger pois have more Z's outside, therefor cities with big POIs automaticially have higher Z spawn.

 

I definitely prefer static zones with some dynamic encounters that may scale with the player.

Oblivion's level scaling was horrendous for me... used OOO to play it. Skyrim's zones were affected by your level but they had certain level ranges and a max level of enemies which could spawn in them, so it felt more like a real world. Still used Requiem and other mods which got rid of most of level scaling and made areas mostly static with smaller scaling ranges. Exploration is terrible in a world that scales with you imo (loot included), because every place will offer you a similar experience and everything is more or less expected.

 

I agree that roaming zombies are not enough - hopefully they will optimize the game to increase them. As for sleepers, I used to ask for them before they were put in the game, but they have totally gone wrong with the whole sleeper thing in my eyes. The value of sleepers lies at surprising the player sprinkled among roaming zombies. But they managed to completely strip them of that and I have no idea why their number isn't more random - that alone would be a great improvement and POI clearing would become less of the same ol' drag.

[Viktoriusiii]

I definitely prefer static zones with some dynamic encounters that may scale with the player.

Oblivion's level scaling was horrendous for me... used OOO to play it. Skyrim's zones were affected by your level but they had certain level ranges and a max level of enemies which could spawn in them, so it felt more like a real world. Still used Requiem and other mods which got rid of most of level scaling and made areas mostly static with smaller scaling ranges. Exploration is terrible in a world that scales with you imo (loot included), because every place will offer you a similar experience and everything is more or less expected.

 

This is something I have read over and over and over again.

And I just don't get it. Is it because I always played on Legendary (before on Master obviously)? Because I feel every slight variation.

I feel if that is just a low level bandit or a bandit highwayman. I feel if that is a lowly draugr or a draugr wight or even overlord.

 

There are caves that I stopped trying until I'm stronger because they oneshot me.

And I already feel like I could beat everything with cheese and shouts... but those aren't intended so I'm not counting that.

 

And yes that is what I meant with they took the worst part of oblivion (the endless skaling instead of only skaling some things up but making a bigger variety)

[RestInPieces]

This is something I have read over and over and over again.

And I just don't get it. Is it because I always played on Legendary (before on Master obviously)? Because I feel every slight variation.

I feel if that is just a low level bandit or a bandit highwayman. I feel if that is a lowly draugr or a draugr wight or even overlord.

 

There are caves that I stopped trying until I'm stronger because they oneshot me.

And I already feel like I could beat everything with cheese and shouts... but those aren't intended so I'm not counting that.

 

And yes that is what I meant with they took the worst part of oblivion (the endless skaling instead of only skaling some things up but making a bigger variety)

 

Hm I don't mean that I couldn't feel variations between enemies, but variations between places, which I didn't expect due knowing that they will scale with my level.

 

These dungeons in which they one-shot you in Skyrim had probably a min level at which enemies could spawn. For example the first dungeon might have 1-20 level enemies while a high-end dungeon may have 30-50 level enemies. So if you were 30 in that dungeon, the enemies and loot were around 30. Same even applied to the daedric artifacts in vanilla if I remember correctly. You could get stuck with a weaker version of the artifact if you were lower level.

 

With Requiem the first dungeon has like 10 level enemies while a high-end dungeon might have 50. I just prefer that because areas are less forgiving and unpredictable and enemies that were weak stay weak.

[Applesauce]

I agree, it would be nice to have roamers in the cities again BUT sometimes in the past alphas you could get 2 dog hoards a zombie bear, a feral, a cop, etc all attacking you at once. There were battles that posed great challenges and then there were those impossible battles where you got in your vehicle and drove away. Random walker gens in cities made you choose your battles in a zombie apocalypse which created scenarios for using your judgement. I agree that putting all the loot rooms up top makes the game easy because you can wood frame up, then grab'n'go.

[beHypE]

Totally agree. I've written several posts in the general A18 thread, and Madmole's position on the matter is in the ballpark of "not doable atm because of performance concerns". I still think this should be top priority because all the non-city gameplay gets totally uninteresting since a city is a concentration of loot with 0 added difficulty. I feel a "3-tiered system" just like they did for everything in the game would work great. Early game loot isolated POIs, once you feel strong enough you can adventure into towns and once you're in the zone you can loot those juicy cities.

 

I still remember my first time ever encountering the 0,0 city back in A11, man I got my ass handed to me but I knew i'd come back and get what's mine once i'm able to. Now unfortunately, my game theory every single playthrough day 1 is to find a city and put my bedroll in any street with no real fear, with way too many POIs to loot for my taste of "early game survival".

[HerrKingsley]

I miss hub cities so much! I even started to mod it when I realized you have to edit every single POI to change what zombies are spawned there.

 

I have suggested it many times on dev thread and the latest response from MM was:

"The goal is to increase game stage in some biomes we want by design to be harder. You need game staging for teams, and proper scaling of enemies based on all the conditions"

 

So I hope this is coming atleast in some form.

[Viktoriusiii]

[...]

 

it is not a levelbound but a multiplier.

Easy dungeons are ~0.5 while extra hard ones are ~2.75 times your level.

 

I think that makes them effectively random but still beatable if you absolutely have to (for a quest for example or a specific shout and so on)

 

And I'm not sure about you but I really had a blast fighting myself through labyrinthion (mage guild quest)

On legendary enemies don't go down easily and all of them have insane spells (draugr even have lvl 2-3 fus ro dah)

Compare that with the probably first dungeon of the game with the stoneplate where each enemy isnt much of a threat even if you only have simple means.

 

I think people hear "enemies scale" and think of oblivion.

 

Obviously it is not the same as in gothic for example.

But gothic is a narrative driven world.

You aren't sent to Irdorath in Chapter 1 (if you don't know Irdorath is the last Chapter and only elite enemies are there) so you have no chance to come across them.

It guides you through "appropriate" zones by design/narrative.

Skyrim is an open world sandbox. You can not make a huge world without a main narrative and have fixed enemy difficulty.

Well you can... but it takes away the "open" world "sandbox" aspect.

 

 

Leveled enemies are the only way that I know of of combining OWS(OpenWorldSandbox) with a challange.

You can make a minecraft game without challenge... but you can not make an OWS and have certain areas kill the player outright without a narrative slowly pushing him towards harder zones.

[Feycat]

I do miss the consta-spawning city raids. Going to the 0,0 city used to be something you had to prep for.

[KeiraR]

"It's day one and I'm going to the city at 0,0. I know it's stupid but wish me luck!"

That's how some new 7DTD season videos on Youtube started.

That was also when the game was still awesome.

 

Day one hub city run by Aendams

[RestInPieces]

it is not a levelbound but a multiplier.

Easy dungeons are ~0.5 while extra hard ones are ~2.75 times your level.

 

I think that makes them effectively random but still beatable if you absolutely have to (for a quest for example or a specific shout and so on)

 

I don't know if they also have a multiplier but from what I can see most dungeon encounters have a minimum level, creatures in general have a max level and zones are level-bound.

 

BleakFallsBarrowZone

This area has a minimum level of 6, a maximum level of 20, and resets normally. This means that if the player enters the zone below level 6, the encounter zone will ignore the player's level and calculate using its minimum level of 6. If the player enters the zone above level 20, the encounter zone will calculate at level 20, and no higher.

 

 

And I'm not sure about you but I really had a blast fighting myself through labyrinthion (mage guild quest)

On legendary enemies don't go down easily and all of them have insane spells (draugr even have lvl 2-3 fus ro dah)

Compare that with the probably first dungeon of the game with the stoneplate where each enemy isnt much of a threat even if you only have simple means.

 

Lab was probably my favorite dungeon as well.

 

I think people hear "enemies scale" and think of oblivion.

 

Skyrim's scaling was definitely an improvement over Oblivion. For example Oblivion didn't have a monster-specific level cap if I remember correctly, but in Skyrim a bandit could never be over level 28 according to the wiki.

 

Obviously it is not the same as in gothic for example.

But gothic is a narrative driven world.

You aren't sent to Irdorath in Chapter 1 (if you don't know Irdorath is the last Chapter and only elite enemies are there) so you have no chance to come across them.

It guides you through "appropriate" zones by design/narrative.

Skyrim is an open world sandbox. You can not make a huge world without a main narrative and have fixed enemy difficulty.

Well you can... but it takes away the "open" world "sandbox" aspect.

 

Gothic was more story-driven yes and it didn't allow you to go everywhere, but it still allowed you to explore and roam to test your character. G1 and 2 not so much, but G3 had a pretty good open world. It's a shame that game was never properly developed.

 

 

Leveled enemies are the only way that I know of of combining OWS(OpenWorldSandbox) with a challange.

You can make a minecraft game without challenge... but you can not make an OWS and have certain areas kill the player outright without a narrative slowly pushing him towards harder zones.

 

Imo it is possible and also the best/true way to simulate a virtual world. You can allow the player to roam freely in the majority of your world but can also sprinkle higher level zones in it. You don't really need a narrative as long as your worldbuilding is great, telling a story of its own and full of visual cues. Many people though don't want an encounter they can't actually predict and beat in their way - while some others enjoy that a lot.

[Viktoriusiii]

I don't know if they also have a multiplier but from what I can see most dungeon encounters have a minimum level, creatures in general have a max level and zones are level-bound.

Yeah... I forgot... but doesn't that prove my point even more that Skyrim had other flaws (too fast of an improvementcurve) but the worlddesign was pretty neatly done with hard zones and weak zones.

 

 

 

Lab was probably my favorite dungeon as well.

 

 

 

Skyrim's scaling was definitely an improvement over Oblivion. For example Oblivion didn't have a monster-specific level cap if I remember correctly, but in Skyrim a bandit could never be over level 28 according to the wiki.

 

Yeah. Ever fought an Ancient Dragon with ease only to be eaten in two bites by a legendary? (*Senile Scribbles reference* If you haven't seen it you must! )

 

Gothic was more story-driven yes and it didn't allow you to go everywhere, but it still allowed you to explore and roam to test your character. G1 and 2 not so much, but G3 had a pretty good open world. It's a shame that game was never properly developed.

 

but in G3 there were no real "difficult" areas. Okay sure Vengard (city of the King) is much more difficult. But I never really felt like there are "difficulty zones". No matter if I went into Varant or Nordmar it didnt really fel different.

 

 

Imo it is possible and also the best/true way to simulate a virtual world. You can allow the player to roam freely in the majority of your world but can also sprinkle higher level zones in it. You don't really need a narrative as long as your worldbuilding is great, telling a story of its own and full of visual cues. Many people though don't want an encounter they can't actually predict and beat in their way - while some others enjoy that a lot.

 

I mean... I don't think that is true... at kleast I can#t see how you can manage to hold a player in certain/from certain zones without a compelling narrative... But if you can manage/find one, please tell me I'd be willing to try!

 

 

 

PS: I wrote something in the News Post asking if you can explain it better or if I'm just wrong could you take a look?

 

 

[RestInPieces]

I mean... I don't think that is true... at kleast I can#t see how you can manage to hold a player in certain/from certain zones without a compelling narrative... But if you can manage/find one, please tell me I'd be willing to try!

 

You don't have to hold the player in/from certain zones, just encourage/discourage him via static loot, difficult encounters, penalties, dynamic encounters, mechanics etc. In the world of Kenshi for example there is no real narrative and the world is just a sandbox. Its worldbuilding creates its own narrative. That world has random static loot, enemies and dynamic encounters which correspond to the actions of the player in that world. The player is discouraged e.g. from visiting an area full of acid storms until he gets proper equipment or they are encouraged to settle in the holy lands as long as you are weak enough to need their protection because there is a chance for them to offer you reinforcements when a bandit raid happens. Or e.g. even the UO dynamic ecosystem could be used for that purpose. Ways are infinite even without a strict narrative.

 

 

 

 

PS: I wrote something in the News Post asking if you can explain it better or if I'm just wrong could you take a look?

 

 

Could you link that post?