A solution to the "Run away from hordes" problem.

[RipClaw]

I don't think that positive reinforcement has any place here tbh. The horde as an event is something negative that anyone would want to avoid. If it was positive enough to make players actually want to "participate" you will have turned it into something else - a loot delivery event.

 

If you look at the postings of the people who say they spend the horde night on the bike, they often give as a reason that it is not worth it for them. And I can understand that.

 

In A16 I had a big horde base whose ground was covered with corpses after the end of the horde. It took me half an in-game day to loot all the corpses and harvest them for bones. In A17 I only have a small horde base left and 30 seconds after the horde it's as if it never happened.

 

The last time I felt anything like a confirmation of my performance in defending the base in A17 was when there were about two dozen dogs at the end of the horde. Their bodies don't disappear as fast as those of the zombies. And I was also happy about the yield of bones.

 

If you force the players to do something, it will generate negative feedback. If you encourage them to do something then you will get positive feedback from the players.

 

Ultimately, it would only result in many players not fighting the horde at all if you force them. As you can see from the positive reports from some players who already switched off the horde, it's not the worst thing. These players seek different challenges and focus on something other than constantly preparing for the horde. They have more time for other things.

[RipClaw]

i still don´t see why this is even a discussion when people that don´t wanna deal with hordes can just turn them off in the settings? I mean why bother with a solution for something that can be avoided by default via menu?

 

I don't understand either. Apparently it bothers some that there's any chance of running away from the horde. I guess they just don't want to be tempted because they're afraid of not having the willpower to follow self-imposed rules.

 

Madmole has recently written the following post about this:

 

Then use some self control, we're not gimping ladders because you can't control yourself. I self impose role play rules on characters in games all the time. Can I cheese and win, yes, but that breaks the role play so you don't do it.

 

Same goes for you people wan't spoilage. Just cook up what you can fill up on right now and throw the rest in the trash. You get what you want and average players who don't want that get what they want. The game code does NOT need to force these things on players for it to be enjoyable and possible for the players who do want it.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Also there is people out there who don´t play this game for the horde night. They just wanna build in a postapocalyptic scenario with the occasional disturbance by zombies and a mild challenge when going for ressources and looting.

 

Forcing the horde on to everyone, no matter what, would drive away players and stop some new players from buying the game.

[Khulkhuum]

Considering the light and darkness effects on Zombies:

- Throw out the idea of night being a separate setting and focus only on darkness speed enhancement. The difference would be that every difference in light level would affect the zombies, but you can change the highest level of influence, so the fastest they can go from being in complete darkness. So if they do speed up past player speed in total darkness or just Jog or something, the choice is yours.

- Zombie speed would be calculated based off the general lighting in the area (if they're indoors our outside, the weather, etc.), but based off the maximum addition defined when entering world, so for example we have: Very high light -30% of speed addition, regular light (cloudy day, sunlight indoors) no change, low light (dusk, dawn, heavy clouds, cloudy indoors) +30% of speed addition, very low light (moonlit night, unlit indoors) +60% speed addition, no light (dark night, unlit basements) +100% speed addition.

- Take into consideration the amount of light a day generates. Clear sky will have lots of sunlight and will slow down Zs. Cloudy day will generate less sunlight and will get them to regular speed. Heavy clouds with rain will be closer to dusk, almost night, but still visible, making the Zs go faster. Add to that a few timespans of night, when there is total darkness (speed up enemies even more) and where everything is seen in the moonlight (similar to heavy clouds). Indoors would shift the lighting 1 level lower, so if it's sunlight outside, inside it's regular, regular outside will make inside low light, etc.

 

I know this would require reworking how light works ingame, but it only means it would be harder to implement and perhaps not possible... Still i would find it very interesting to see ingame.

[RipClaw]

The idea: During the blood moon, zombies that are in total darkness move MUCH faster. Like 10x faster.

 

And they should get a red costume and generate lightning when they run.

[RestInPieces]

If you look at the postings of the people who say they spend the horde night on the bike, they often give as a reason that it is not worth it for them. And I can understand that.

 

I can understand that too - they are able to easily avoid something negative, why wouldn't they? The first solution that comes to their mind is to turn that "negative" thing into something positive. This however is as fallacious as it gets as I've also posted multiple times in the past and will quote again below.

 

In A16 I had a big horde base whose ground was covered with corpses after the end of the horde. It took me half an in-game day to loot all the corpses and harvest them for bones. In A17 I only have a small horde base left and 30 seconds after the horde it's as if it never happened.

 

The last time I felt anything like a confirmation of my performance in defending the base in A17 was when there were about two dozen dogs at the end of the horde. Their bodies don't disappear as fast as those of the zombies. And I was also happy about the yield of bones.

 

Throughout 7D's history, it was either simple to completely avoid the horde or death just didn't matter. People have gotten used to seeing it as an optional thing that they don't have any reason to participate to, so it's pretty logical that one would ask to be given an incentive.

 

If you force the players to do something, it will generate negative feedback. If you encourage them to do something then you will get positive feedback from the players.

 

RipClaw, this is factually wrong. First of all, for the simple reason that the horde can now be disabled.

 

But besides that, every single game in history (save for pure sandbox games) is actually forcing the player to do something continuously. Most of the time it doesn't *look* like that, but that's a basic principle of how any game works from tabletop games to video games. Forget about other games - 7D already forces the player to do a multitude of things to survive - people at the moment are just taking them for granted because they have simply gotten used to them.

 

Ultimately, it would only result in many players not fighting the horde at all if you force them. As you can see from the positive reports from some players who already switched off the horde, it's not the worst thing. These players seek different challenges and focus on something other than constantly preparing for the horde. They have more time for other things.

 

Different strokes for different folks as they say. Naturally, it's great that some people who don't like the horde are able to turn it off so that they can focus on other things (e.g. building) and take their time. In general you can pretty much do anything even if the horde is enabled. Yes, it takes some preparation, which comes down to the TD elements of the game, which some people enjoy.

 

Personally I enjoy and engage in all of the game's elements - I like building (I am a builder mostly), having to survive, the urgency of defending, scavenging, exploring etc. Since I like to play the game holistically, I choose the respective options that fit the experience I want to get. However, there is no real reason or urgency to actually engage in any TD elements at the moment. Speaking for myself, I don't get what I want from the game, which are things it was advertised for, not some random personal eccentricity of mine or some absurd request I make of it.

 

I imagine that you can understand and appreciate the difference in a voluntary/optional element and the value of the game telling you to find ways to deal with that element (aka "forcing" you). Imagine if hunger, needs, diseases were "voluntary". Imagine if you could choose to voluntarily be hit by zombies. If everything was optional you would barely have to deal with anything, thus not have to solve any problems, be in danger and so on. The real psychological mechanism people enjoy in the long term and what really engages them is "problem" solving - much more than endlessly getting "rewarded". That endless carrot-on-a-stick tactic is applied to short-lived games and short attention span F2P games. There is a whole different philosophy regarding that domain and different things apply to different products. You would be surprised how "meaningless" rewards become if that is all you get. Like I've replied on that in the past and why that logic is so fallacious - read with open mind.

That is one of the most misguided concepts I've ever seen - it surely sounds like a great concept, until you actually think what reward is, where will it lead and why are you happy after getting that reward. Sometimes you can make "punishment" look like a reward, which is a good thing overall, but in the end it is a matter of perspective. There can't be positive in the long-term without the negative, because it slowly stops being perceived as positive - it's that simple and it applies to everyone.

 

So, think about it: you want "rewards" in order to make BM worthwhile without being penalized. Why do you want them? Which is the ultimate goal? Perks, items? What is the purpose of those in the first place? Survival? Do you want to get rewarded in a BM with those, so that you can survive the ...rest of the time that you are barely threatened? And what is that about "don't penalize"? What is survival, other than the positive state on one side of the coin?

 

Seriously, I know everyone loves reward, but a little common sense won't hurt. Reward must be cleverly, prudently placed not handed out like confetii, otherwise it's not much of a reward.

Yes, in the past zombies acted as infinite delivery devices bringing loot right in front of your door, destroying any sense of item economy, completely inflating it and taking away some of the need for exploration. That is somewhat of a problem, no?

 

Atm the BM as a threat mechanism is as threaning as they come. There isn't anything more threatening. The exact point I am trying to make is: the greatest and foremost incentive to fight the horde must be survival - not rewards. Because if your survival isn't threatened in the most threatening event of the game and the main incentive is to get rewarded instead, there is not much meaning to that reward in the first place - since the purpose of the reward is continued survival. Unfortunately and unavoidably "threatened" means risk of loss. Can't have it any other way, that's what the core meaning is. Some complimentary rewards might work, but if there isn't something at stake, the whole concept will remain fallacious.

[Dimpy]

Considering the light and darkness effects on Zombies:

- Throw out the idea of night being a separate setting and focus only on darkness speed enhancement. The difference would be that every difference in light level would affect the zombies, but you can change the highest level of influence, so the fastest they can go from being in complete darkness. So if they do speed up past player speed in total darkness or just Jog or something, the choice is yours.

- Zombie speed would be calculated based off the general lighting in the area (if they're indoors our outside, the weather, etc.), but based off the maximum addition defined when entering world, so for example we have: Very high light -30% of speed addition, regular light (cloudy day, sunlight indoors) no change, low light (dusk, dawn, heavy clouds, cloudy indoors) +30% of speed addition, very low light (moonlit night, unlit indoors) +60% speed addition, no light (dark night, unlit basements) +100% speed addition.

- Take into consideration the amount of light a day generates. Clear sky will have lots of sunlight and will slow down Zs. Cloudy day will generate less sunlight and will get them to regular speed. Heavy clouds with rain will be closer to dusk, almost night, but still visible, making the Zs go faster. Add to that a few timespans of night, when there is total darkness (speed up enemies even more) and where everything is seen in the moonlight (similar to heavy clouds). Indoors would shift the lighting 1 level lower, so if it's sunlight outside, inside it's regular, regular outside will make inside low light, etc.

 

I know this would require reworking how light works ingame, but it only means it would be harder to implement and perhaps not possible... Still i would find it very interesting to see ingame.

 

I was thinking you just do this for horde night with drastic speed modifiers, not the "30% modifiers based on how cloudy it is" that you're suggesting. Not that the idea doesn't have merit though.

[Dimpy]

And they should get a red costume and generate lightning when they run.

 

So you're saying that the unnaturally fast movement would break your immersion?

[Dimpy]

If the player runs or drives around without interacting with zombies (not attacking them), just spawn more vultures, that can actually kick off the player from a vehicle. They could also puke some kind of slime that incapacitates a vehicle for a time. (negative reinforcement)

 

Hmm, interesting. That might do the trick. However, how would traps fit into this? Would they count as interacting with the zombies? If the player sits on top of a concrete POI and doesn't attack the zombies at all, will they get pelted with vultures? Maybe that's a good thing. How do you prevent the player from jumping out of the jeep every 30 seconds to ward off the vultures by shooting a zombie? How well can this fit into the lore?

 

I'd rather have it evolutionary based, where the zombie horde composition changes based on previous horde nights, so the more you run away, the more fast enemies you will end up seeing.

[RipClaw]

So you're saying that the unnaturally fast movement would break your immersion?

 

Immersion is one thing I'll never understand. I guess I'm just too rational to imagine that this game world actually exists. For all I care, we could have invisible pink unicorns in the game.

 

It's just so ridiculous to try to solve a problem that's not a problem for me at all. It's like trying to prevent people from putting on socks with different colors. If it makes you crazy that other people put on socks with different colors, the problem lies with you and not with the others.

 

The same is it with the possibility that the player can escape the horde. If you impose the rule on yourself that you go down with your base then you should also have the willpower to follow the rule. Then you don't have to change anything in the game at all.

 

There's a simple way to make this difficult without making any changes to the game. Put the vehicles in a box that you can't reach during the horde. Then you have to flee on foot from the zombies when your base gets overrun. In A18 the zombies should be faster than the player at nightmare speed.

[Dimpy]

It's just so ridiculous to try to solve a problem that's not a problem for me at all. It's like trying to prevent people from putting on socks with different colors. If it makes you crazy that other people put on socks with different colors, the problem lies with you and not with the others.

 

Huh, I would have thought that's what you're doing, trying to prevent people from discussing how to solve the horde avoidance problem by preaching to us about the futility of the whole endeavor. You're actually doing a pretty good job, not because of convincing arguments or anything, but because it derails threads really fast.

[RipClaw]

Huh, I would have thought that's what you're doing, trying to prevent people from discussing how to solve the horde avoidance problem by preaching to us about the futility of the whole endeavor. You're actually doing a pretty good job, not because of convincing arguments or anything, but because it derails threads really fast.

 

I'm not keeping anyone from discussing. I am just saying my opinion.

 

Do you want the whole thing as a mod or that it's in the base game? As a mod, it would only affect you. But apparently some of the people in this discussion want the developers to bring that into the base game. This would also affect other players who may not agree with you.

 

But on the subject of what problems such fast moving zombies could cause, fast moving zombies could cause the zombies to fall through the landscape as it sometimes happened with fast vehicles when the landscape was not generated fast enough.

 

And I can imagine that such fast zombies could also cause lags in the game. With fast vehicles I see also constantly short lags.

For example in the BorderlanZ Mod you have super fast motorcycles and the lags in the streams speak for themselves.

 

If you would make the zombies only 10-20% faster than the fastest vehicle in the game you would have the same effect but less problems with the calculation.

[RestInPieces]

I am just saying my opinion.

 

Let's have some fun with this statement, shall we?

 

Immersion is one thing I'll never understand. I guess I'm just too rational to imagine that this game world actually exists. For all I care, we could have invisible pink unicorns in the game.

 

Not an opinion. If you don't understand something you can't really form one and well, you don't, because immersion != imagining the game world actually exists in real life.

 

It's just so ridiculous to try to solve a problem that's not a problem for me at all. It's like trying to prevent people from putting on socks with different colors. If it makes you crazy that other people put on socks with different colors, the problem lies with you and not with the others.

 

Not an op... oh wait, this is an opinion... about other people.

 

The same is it with the possibility that the player can escape the horde. If you impose the rule on yourself that you go down with your base then you should also have the willpower to follow the rule. Then you don't have to change anything in the game at all.

 

Not an opinion. More like an outright dismissal of our concerns and a dubious suggestion for us to use our "willpower" (to achieve one of the things it was advertised for). But yes, with enough willpower you don't even need a PC or a video game! Thank you!

[Dimpy]

@RestInPieces You're not helping. RipClaw already started giving on-topic constructive criticism.

 

But on the subject of what problems such fast moving zombies could cause, fast moving zombies could cause the zombies to fall through the landscape as it sometimes happened with fast vehicles when the landscape was not generated fast enough.

 

And I can imagine that such fast zombies could also cause lags in the game. With fast vehicles I see also constantly short lags.

For example in the BorderlanZ Mod you have super fast motorcycles and the lags in the streams speak for themselves.

 

If you would make the zombies only 10-20% faster than the fastest vehicle in the game you would have the same effect but less problems with the calculation.

 

In my experience, faster moving objects do take more resources because the pathing grids need to be updated more often and there need to be more collision checks. However, the bottleneck of land generation speed doesn't apply to non-player entities, so they could conceivably go faster. However, the 10-20% faster than the fastest vehicle sounds fine if it adds performance.

[RestInPieces]

@RestInPieces You're not helping. RipClaw already started giving on-topic constructive criticism.

 

Fair enough... my apologies to both.

[AtomicUs5000]

i still don´t see why this is even a discussion when people that don´t wanna deal with hordes can just turn them off in the settings? I mean why bother with a solution for something that can be avoided by default via menu?

You are thinking about it in the opposite way.

It is not, I don’t like them, so shut them off. It is, I like them and want them to be better if I have them turned on.

[Morloc]

Bah. Introduce the damn colonists to defend already.

 

You don't ~have~ to defend them (hop on that bike you dirty coward!...or mebee soulless nomad?), but then you lose whatever benefits your fledgling bastion of civilization was providing.

 

Voila! There's the incentive to stay and fight the horde.

Alakazam! There's the incentive to build a multi-layered fortress designed not just to keep the Zs out, but to keep colonists alive.

Presto! All the excitement of having to decide if you can hold out 'till sunrise, or bail out to save your own bacon.

 

No new zombies required and seemingly only minor tweaks to the AI...

...adding a whole new dimension to the game.

 

 

-Morloc

[Aerial]

Considering the light and darkness effects on Zombies:

- Throw out the idea of night being a separate setting and focus only on darkness speed enhancement. The difference would be that every difference in light level would affect the zombies, but you can change the highest level of influence, so the fastest they can go from being in complete darkness. So if they do speed up past player speed in total darkness or just Jog or something, the choice is yours.

- Zombie speed would be calculated based off the general lighting in the area (if they're indoors our outside, the weather, etc.), but based off the maximum addition defined when entering world, so for example we have: Very high light -30% of speed addition, regular light (cloudy day, sunlight indoors) no change, low light (dusk, dawn, heavy clouds, cloudy indoors) +30% of speed addition, very low light (moonlit night, unlit indoors) +60% speed addition, no light (dark night, unlit basements) +100% speed addition.

- Take into consideration the amount of light a day generates. Clear sky will have lots of sunlight and will slow down Zs. Cloudy day will generate less sunlight and will get them to regular speed. Heavy clouds with rain will be closer to dusk, almost night, but still visible, making the Zs go faster. Add to that a few timespans of night, when there is total darkness (speed up enemies even more) and where everything is seen in the moonlight (similar to heavy clouds). Indoors would shift the lighting 1 level lower, so if it's sunlight outside, inside it's regular, regular outside will make inside low light, etc.

 

I know this would require reworking how light works ingame, but it only means it would be harder to implement and perhaps not possible... Still i would find it very interesting to see ingame.

 

This would be a great addition to the "horror" aspect of the game, though I fully support being able to turn the mechanic off at a minimum (if settings to tailor the speed changes are too complex to test).

 

With this setting on, an additional aspect to heighten the horror would be an option to disable the clock :-) For those who really want the tense, scary stuff. (I probably would not do that because it would freak me out, but I know there are folks who would really enjoy the challenge.)

[RipClaw]

With this setting on, an additional aspect to heighten the horror would be an option to disable the clock :-) For those who really want the tense, scary stuff. (I probably would not do that because it would freak me out, but I know there are folks who would really enjoy the challenge.)

 

It's not difficult to deactivate the clock. You only need a HUD mod to deactivate the clock and you could also suppress the bloodmoon warning. If you had a random bloodmoon horde you would only notice that horde night is when the thunderstorm starts and the sky turns red.

 

On the Darkness Falls Mod, for example, the clock is no longer visible on the HUD. To know what time it is, you can only look into a vending machine. But even there you could deactivate the time if you wanted to. Except for the background noise and the general light conditions you would have no clue how late it is.

[pApA^LeGBa]

You are thinking about it in the opposite way.

It is not, I don’t like them, so shut them off. It is, I like them and want them to be better if I have them turned on.

 

You want to force the hordes on everyone, no matter if they wanna deal with them or not, because you don´t like the hordes right now?

 

What?

 

Just play how you want, and let others do the same...

 

i agree that the hordes aren´t as fun right now as they used to be, no reason to tell others how to play tough.

[Aerial]

It's not difficult to deactivate the clock. You only need a HUD mod to deactivate the clock and you could also suppress the bloodmoon warning. If you had a random bloodmoon horde you would only notice that horde night is when the thunderstorm starts and the sky turns red.

 

On the Darkness Falls Mod, for example, the clock is no longer visible on the HUD. To know what time it is, you can only look into a vending machine. But even there you could deactivate the time if you wanted to. Except for the background noise and the general light conditions you would have no clue how late it is.

 

I was suggesting it as a vanilla option, not a mod. And not because I would enjoy it (personally, I would not). But I think it's a simple option to add and test that would create a more tense horror-esque game environment for those who want that.

[AtomicUs5000]

You want to force the hordes on everyone, no matter if they wanna deal with them or not, because you don´t like the hordes right now?

 

What?

 

Just play how you want, and let others do the same...

 

i agree that the hordes aren´t as fun right now as they used to be, no reason to tell others how to play tough.

 

Holy hell! Please stop! People who don't want them can turn them off, like I've said a thousand times. I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. Where are you getting this?

People are trying to say because they can be turned off, then it doesn't matter how crappy it is for people who want it on. That's all.

[RipClaw]

I was suggesting it as a vanilla option, not a mod. And not because I would enjoy it (personally, I would not). But I think it's a simple option to add and test that would create a more tense horror-esque game environment for those who want that.

 

I doubt the option will come. Not because it would be hard to implement, but because madmole is not a friend of cluttering the menu with options. Many players would have to vote for such an option in order for it to be implemented.

 

Therefore, the best way for players who want to have this is to install a modlet. If the workshop comes sometime installing a modlet will be very easy but it is not difficult now either.

 

I quickly created a modlet that hides the clock. It only took me a few minutes to create the modlet since it only requires just a few lines of xpath to get rid of the clock.

 

If you want to take a look at it:

 

https://app.box.com/s/5ulrvawp523ea2rfmcnttursb6oa7zzb

[Wigbert]

Immersion is one thing I'll never understand. I guess I'm just too rational to imagine that this game world actually exists. For all I care, we could have invisible pink unicorns in the game.

 

I'm going to have to agree.

Never have I heard an online gaming community whine so hard, about something so silly as " Breaks the immersion ". It's just silly. Does not the Giant Compass on your forehead, or that constantly updating satellite map your have, does that not break your immersion? If you want better " immersion " you better mod those out.

[RestInPieces]

I'm going to have to agree.

Never have I heard an online gaming community whine so hard, about something so silly as " Breaks the immersion ". It's just silly. Does not the Giant Compass on your forehead, or that constantly updating satellite map your have, does that not break your immersion? If you want better " immersion " you better mod those out.

 

Uhh hate becoming obnoxious yet again but this is... arg...

Each person's tolerance may vary, but the general rule is that the more consistency in the game's universe, the fewer UI, meta elements and anything else that is alien to the game world, the more immersion. It's that simple.