pApA^LeGBa Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 It´s bugged if you turn it off and on, it´s good to have the ability to avoid one horde sometimes, like i said, it´s also about the immersion that you can avoid it, even when turned on, feels less like a game compared to forced hordes. I also don´t see this bug fixed any time soon. If ever. Why would they remove choosing the zombie speed when they just added it? It makes it so that you can avoid hordes if you have them on walk or jog even without a vehicle. Whole discussion is useless now, because like you said, it´s just added why would they remove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 It´s bugged if you turn it off and on They'll fix it. Not a valid argument for this. it´s good to have the ability to avoid one horde sometimes, like i said, it´s also about the immersion that you can avoid it, even when turned on, feels less like a game compared to forced hordes. Once the bug is fixed, feel free to do so anytime you want, but leave us alone who want it on and keep it on. Why would they remove choosing the zombie speed when they just added it? It makes it so that you can avoid hordes if you have them on walk or jog even without a vehicle. Whole discussion is useless now, because like you said, it´s just added why would they remove it. Was this whole conversation about the removal of zombie speed settings? Wow, missed that. Throw the whole thing away now. I suggested as a base starter for fixing this problem, that the zed speed for when BM is on is based on the original zed speed, plus some. That is how I would start, but I have suggested other things too. Zeds should jump in front of vehicles during BM and try to slow it down/damage it. Same with vultures and the gyrocopter. This mechanic only makes sense if BM zombies are faster than any other time. However, there have been other suggestions. All that really matters here is that if I have BM on, and I have the max zombie speed on, I should not be able to simply ride around in a vehicle and avoid it. It is effortless, cheap on resources, and not challenging. With all the settings you have available to make this game easy, all I want is one thing. Just one.... and yet people have to come in here (people who could care less about it, mind you) and present nonsense as arguments to prevent me and others from playing a BM horde night as it was originally designed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Madmole's not doing the balancing because of the horde night. Yes, I'm aware of that. I did not claim or argue it was because of horde night. I said I would accept this solution like any other to show that I don't insist on specific methods to balance this. I wouldn't mind seeing an EMP zombie, but I also would be fine with a method that costs nearly nothing to implement, or a method that balances vehicles as a side effect or accident. Maybe I should have been more clear that the last thing you said is what I don't really accept. You said: "That's balancing for me. Not introducing measures that only target a certain group of players or a certain behavior.". That is an unworkable definition. You could never nerf a shotgun in a game of yours if the shotgun were doing too much damage. Because any player with the behaviour of using predominantely the shotgun is targeted. You could never nerf stealth (like it was done between A16 and 17) since it targets the group of players relying on stealth. I'm curious how you'd explain that to the people who always talk about immersion. Why should vehicles in the horde suddenly consume more fuel at horde night? Come on, who cares about immersion-freaks ? Horde night makes the sky turn red, makes zombies detect you whereever you are. They sure would like to be able to do that in other nights too so they probably aren't role playing that . So there must be something magical in the air that influences the spark ignition or the chemical reaction itself. Maybe there is more argon in the air ? (hopefiully nobody with any knowledge about chemistry reads this, then I might get away with it) Wait, that's it: You explain how zombies detect you only on horde night and then I explain the fuel consumption on horde night. I once mentioned that people who are bothered by the fact the you can avoid the horde on a bike can make a mod. The reaction wasn't that positive. I am well aware that neither I nor you nor anyone else from the forum can influence much here. But I can give my opinion on a topic. Agreed. My last sentence was just a disclaimer to everyone ever reading this thread because what I said can be misunderstood and I don't want to open another tangent. I'm not suprised that your mod-suggestions didn't make anyone happy. Any game, whether vanilla or total conversion, has the goal to be balanced just like it has the goal to be bugfree. It is not about the individual player, it is about the game in its default state being balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimpy Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 @pApA^LeGBa as someone who really hates being forced to participate in the horde, do you have any suggestions for how players could be discouraged from using the same running away strategy every time without it feeling like they are legitimately being forced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pApA^LeGBa Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Once the bug is fixed, feel free to do so anytime you want, but leave us alone who want it on and keep it on. You leave everone alone who want it like it is now. Go make yourself a mod. Don´t kill diversity, because you can´t feel threatened because you could avoid it. It´s only about that you could. And for that you ask for a complete overhaul. A bit over the top, don´t you think? Immersion is also not given if you have to jump in the menu and back if you wanna turn it of for one horde. @Dimpy Nope. I am for leaving it as it is. I don´t avoid hordes usually, but i still want the option to do so. For me it´s mostly about immersion. Tough there is a lot of people that have other reasons for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 You leave everone alone who want it like it is now. I am. Nothing will stop someone from dialing down settings so that they can continue to cheat horde night just because I want a real horde night on default+ settings. Go make yourself a mod. Don´t kill diversity, because you can´t feel threatened because you could avoid it. It´s only about that you could. And for that you ask for a complete overhaul. A bit over the top, don´t you think? It would be if it was a complete overhaul, but I am not requesting a complete overhaul. I am requesting that I can have a horde night that is challenging. - zeds jumping in front of moving vehicles / vultures flying into gyrocopter on horde night (Probably will happen since MM is leaning toward this idea) - a more detrimental death penalty (MM still deciding on the best fit for this) - Less shared XP in MP at normal times, but even more shared XP during horde night, if BM is on. Otherwise, stays as is. - continued work on AI (which will happen and is happening anyway) Immersion is also not given if you have to jump in the menu and back if you wanna turn it of for one horde. Preventing an event in the game that is supposed to happen because you have just decided that you can't handle the survival at that moment is even more immersion breaking. Face the consequences of whatever mistake you made to get into that position. If this game didn't have the whole "sandbox" label, I would consider this cheating. I don't really believe your stance on immersion anyway. I know you make backup saves of your games from prior posts (which I also consider cheating). I also know you are a person who defends the nerd pole (some people call this cheating, I don't. Doesn't bother me). Point is, neither of these things align with immersion at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimpy Posted June 27, 2019 Author Share Posted June 27, 2019 Papa's main argument seems to be "I like the way things are now, therefore I do not want them changed". In a way, it has an almost irrefutable logic to it; trying to convice him otherwise is bound to be an exercise is futility. I think the best way to resolve the argument is to just stop arguing and only reply to constructive posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 I’m hanging on to the belief that they added a way to turn off BM so that they can freely add more difficulty to it without hearing as much negative feedback. Although my only reasoning for this is the upcoming Demolisher. It just shows that they do see that the TD side of the game still needs love. I can’t wait for it. I will probably have to continue to play pretend that defending a base is a logical choice, but I’m gonna do it anyway to see what it brings. Zombie damage in general is getting nerfed a tad, so it will probably just end up balancing out, leaving everything in the same exact situation. However, it would be the same situation plus a new zombie, so it is still awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrad-Kruschev Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Solution for "Run away from hordes" problem. A solution is not needed for a non existent problem. If running from hordes bothers you so much then don't run away from them, it's that simple. This reminds me of the whiners who complained about being able to hide underground from zombies in alpha 16. Just because the option is there doesn't mean you have to take it, the choice is up to you. But thanks to said masochistic whiners you can no longer mine in peace without worrying about undead freaks dropping down on your head and underground survival bunkers have become completely irrelevant since the apocalypse above can now just dig down to you rendering their original purpose as a place to shelter in null and void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 I’m hanging on to the belief that they added a way to turn off BM so that they can freely add more difficulty to it without hearing as much negative feedback. Although my only reasoning for this is the upcoming Demolisher. It just shows that they do see that the TD side of the game still needs love. I can’t wait for it. I will probably have to continue to play pretend that defending a base is a logical choice, but I’m gonna do it anyway to see what it brings. Zombie damage in general is getting nerfed a tad, so it will probably just end up balancing out, leaving everything in the same exact situation. However, it would be the same situation plus a new zombie, so it is still awesome. The option is not a simple on/off switch. Players have been given the option to choose the time interval between the hordes instead of being restricted to 7 days. Setting the value to 0 days will disable the horde. Also an option has been introduced that allows you to get a horde on random days. Popular game modes among streamers are now that you have a horde every day or that you have a horde on a random day. You seek the challenges in your life yourself. They are not delivered to you. A player I know for example found it boring to fight the horde in his base. That's why he started fighting the horde on the street. That was still in A15 and he used firearms for it. In A16 he started fighting the Horde with the baton and bow and arrow to have a bigger challenge. Needless to say that high gamestage hordes weren't really effective to fight in this way but it was fun for him. Nobody forced him to fight the horde this way. You don't have to pretend you're forced to do something. You just do it and have fun with it. I do a lot of quests, for example. Nobody forces me to. They are offered to me by the trader and I can do them or not. As far as the demolisher zombie is concerned, we will see whether it will be a challenge or a pain in the butt. From the current description I guess the second one, but it might also be useful for some players. You hit him in the right spot and he kills all the zombies around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 The option is not a simple on/off switch. Players have been given the option to choose the time interval between the hordes instead of being restricted to 7 days. Setting the value to 0 days will disable the horde. Also an option has been introduced that allows you to get a horde on random days. Popular game modes among streamers are now that you have a horde every day or that you have a horde on a random day. Challenges you seek in life yourself. They are not delivered to you. A player I know for example found it boring to fight the horde in his base. That's why he started fighting the horde on the street. That was still in A15 and he used firearms for it. In A16 he started fighting the Horde with the baton and bow and arrow to have a bigger challenge. Needless to say that high gamestage hordes weren't really effective to fight in this way but it was fun for him. You don't have to pretend you're forced to do something. You just do it and have fun with it. I do a lot of quests, for example. Nobody forces me to. They are offered to me by the trader and I can do them or not. As far as the demolisher zombie is concerned, we will see whether it will be a challenge or a pain in the butt. From the current description I guess the second one, but it might also be useful for some players. You hit him in the right spot and he kills all the zombies around him. Yep. I'm fully aware, and have played in different settings. There is definitely more fun to be had with it than just sitting in a base, and I have had that fun. In fact, they added those settings to provide more challenges because it was a relatively quick and easy way to do so. It only lasts so long though before it just turns into a reminder that horde night is incomplete more often or randomly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 A solution is not needed for a non existent problem. If running from hordes bothers you so much then don't run away from them, it's that simple. This reminds me of the whiners who complained about being able to hide underground from zombies in alpha 16. Just because the option is there doesn't mean you have to take it, the choice is up to you. But thanks to said masochistic whiners you can no longer mine in peace without worrying about undead freaks dropping down on your head and underground survival bunkers have become completely irrelevant since the apocalypse above can now just dig down to you rendering their original purpose as a place to shelter in null and void. Welcome to a survival game. You are leaving the safe zone. Please be aware of danger ahead. Leave your teddy bear behind and bring weapons. Signed: masochistic whiner. ------------------------------------------------------- Pictures of an irrelevant underground crafting base pueblo style (not yet finished): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 It only lasts so long though before it just turns into a reminder that horde night is incomplete more often or randomly. Even if you get the horde night you're imagining right now, I doubt you'll be satisfied for long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Even if you get the horde night you're imagining right now, I doubt you'll be satisfied for long. I don't think we're on that level where you know what satisfies me yet. If I can put over a thousand hours into playing it the way it is, I am sure I can manage twice that if it was feature-complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feycat Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Remind me again why "players avoiding hordes" is anyone else's problem? Who cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Remind me again why "players avoiding hordes" is anyone else's problem? Who cares? It really isn’t. This has been more about, if you have easier settings, it should be possible with easy means (running, vehicles). If you have harder settings, then it shouldn’t be possible with the same means... because that is what is desired by that player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Remind me again why "players avoiding hordes" is anyone else's problem? Who cares? Because the problem is not "players avoiding hordes". If that was the problem, people would ask TFP to remove the option to disable the hordes in the first place. Do you see anyone asking for that? No. The problem is "give us a practical/actual reason to defend/use the game's TD elements", which is a problem that is irrelevant to what other people are doing. Even if you get the horde night you're imagining right now, I doubt you'll be satisfied for long. Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Is it too late for me to randomly state that anyone who thinks there are too many weapons in the early game lacks self control by taking them? Just pretend they aren’t there for crying out loud. It’s just will power.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimpy Posted June 28, 2019 Author Share Posted June 28, 2019 If there was a way to build a non-cheesy horde-proof base, running away would be more balanced because you could more easily skip the horde by staying in your base than driving around. Of course, then you get the issue that it becomes easy late-game. This could be mitigated by measures such as needing to travel far away from your strongest main base for resources, or a rare extra-nasty horde night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Is it too late for me to randomly state that anyone who thinks there are too many weapons in the early game lacks self control by taking them? Just pretend they aren’t there for crying out loud. It’s just will power.... I suggest pretending that you are playing a completely different game that requires you to have too many weapons in early game. It's more immersive that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrad-Kruschev Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Welcome to a survival game. You are leaving the safe zone. Please be aware of danger ahead. Leave your teddy bear behind and bring weapons. Signed: masochistic whiner. ------------------------------------------------------- It's not like other survival games don't have safe houses to temporarily shelter in. Part of survival is knowing when to fight and when to gtfo of dodge, that's realism. What's not realistic is a bunch of braindead rotten meatbags digging down to your deep underground concrete bunker within minutes. It's my game and I should be able to do as I please as do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 It's not like other survival games don't have safe houses to temporarily shelter in. Part of survival is knowing when to fight and when to gtfo of dodge, that's realism. What's not realistic is a bunch of braindead rotten meatbags digging down to your deep underground concrete bunker within minutes. It's my game and I should be able to do as I please as do you. That's reasonable. I'm all for a setting to stop zombie digging. I'm all for being able to run away on lower settings. I'm not against these things just because I feel that they are "non-existent problems". Sound familiar? I know it is a problem for others, so I respect that opinion. I can only hope to get the same respect for what I feel is a problem in the way I want to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripflex Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 It'll come to everyone gets teleported in the wasteland nekkid with a sprained ankle on horde night.... might as well go all the way and force a specific game play. <not sarcasm> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 It'll come to everyone gets teleported in the trader fully clothed with a full stommach on horde night.... might as well go all the way and eliminate all game play. <not sarcasm, just funnier> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 ------------------------------------------------------- It's not like other survival games don't have safe houses to temporarily shelter in. Part of survival is knowing when to fight and when to gtfo of dodge, that's realism. What's not realistic is a bunch of braindead rotten meatbags digging down to your deep underground concrete bunker within minutes. It's my game and I should be able to do as I please as do you. a bunch of braindead rotten meatbags can exist = realism they can dig = not realism /just checking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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