Dimpy Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 The idea: During the blood moon, zombies that are in total darkness move MUCH faster. Like 10x faster. What this does: Running away from the horde is a lot harder. If you carry a light source, the zombies won't instantly catch up to you, but they will always be on your heels. Players are encouraged to stay at their base because it's a lot safer. Lighting up your base actually has positive gameplay benefits, so there's less temptation to forgo light sources and turn up the gamma. What are the downsides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimpy Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 Hey guys, we already have an active thread for the generic "keeping players from avoiding horde night is pointless" debate. If you could focus on the specific subject at hand, that would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Hey guys, we already have an active thread for the generic "keeping players from avoiding horde night is pointless" debate. If you could focus on the specific subject at hand, that would be great. Well, if the point isn't to stop players from avoiding the Horde, what is it then Dimpy? I ask that sincerely, cause, yeah, this thread is duplicating another one, so I'll merge them unless there's some different aspect to your thread (which I'm missing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimpy Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 Well, if the point isn't to stop players from avoiding the Horde, what is it then Dimpy? I ask that sincerely, cause, yeah, this thread is duplicating another one, so I'll merge them unless there's some different aspect to your thread (which I'm missing). I was hoping it would be more about how this specific fix (light vs zombie speed) would have negative effects on the gameplay or game feel, not on whether horde fixes in general are a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 I was hoping it would be more about how this specific fix (light vs zombie speed) would have negative effects on the gameplay or game feel, not on whether horde fixes in general are a bad idea. Ok, now worries Dimpy. Let's amscray the Horde avoidance talk. :-) Horde avoidance posts moved to https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?119721-Correct-me-if-I-m-wrong/page3 Ok, so back in regular forum Joe mode, I think I can see one issue here. If darkness speeds up zombies, what do players do before they can rig an electrical system up? Keep in mind, torches generate heat, so dropping them all over the place could have some unhappy side effects to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 The darkness causing zombies to run fast was a major component of earlier alphas. I don't know why that was changed. I suspect that it looked weird when zombies would come in and out of dark buildings... but not certain about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 The darkness causing zombies to run fast was a major component of earlier alphas. I don't know why that was changed. I suspect that it looked weird when zombies would come in and out of dark buildings... but not certain about that. True, and there's definitely some appeal to the idea. Unfortunately I joined after that was edited out (it was VERY early Alphas), but it'd be fun to have a "zombies walk in light, run in dark" mode - but then, I think you'd have to remove the HeatMap element from torches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 I think it was driven directly by the light values, independent of the heat map. So they would be running, then suddenly stop the moment they exited a doorway. Really, I think all they needed was a good animator to build some transitions. They have someone who is working on the "mantis shrimp", so now might be a good time to bring it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimpy Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 Ok, so back in regular forum Joe mode, I think I can see one issue here. If darkness speeds up zombies, what do players do before they can rig an electrical system up? Keep in mind, torches generate heat, so dropping them all over the place could have some unhappy side effects to. The Aoe of torches would have to be pretty big. Maybe in a 5m radius they would slow zombies down the maximum amount, and at 20m they have no effect. There certainly would be a trade-off between keeping a large base well-lit for horde night and keeping a base that doesn't attract screamers, but I don't see anything wrong with that. It's certainly better than torches purely being negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 I think it was driven directly by the light values, independent of the heat map. So they would be running, then suddenly stop the moment they exited a doorway. Really, I think all they needed was a good animator to build some transitions. They have someone who is working on the "mantis shrimp", so now might be a good time to bring it up. Yes, I knew it was driven by the light values, the point about the Heat Map I meant is that if you had this sort of mode, you'd need to remove the Heat Map element from torches, so that placing lots of those didn't induce "Perpetual Screamer Syndrome", since until the player advance enough to make an electrical system, torches would be their only way to generate light to slow the Zombies down. - - - Updated - - - The Aoe of torches would have to be pretty big. Maybe in a 5m radius they would slow zombies down the maximum amount, and at 20m they have no effect. There certainly would be a trade-off between keeping a large base well-lit for horde night and keeping a base that doesn't attract screamers, but I don't see anything wrong with that. It's certainly better than torches purely being negative. Yeah, that could be another way, leave the Torches heat map element in, but increase their area of lighting effect massively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 The Aoe of torches would have to be pretty big. Maybe in a 5m radius they would slow zombies down the maximum amount, and at 20m they have no effect. There certainly would be a trade-off between keeping a large base well-lit for horde night and keeping a base that doesn't attract screamers, but I don't see anything wrong with that. It's certainly better than torches purely being negative. Also, I think it might help bring some more incentive to working with electricity if keeping well lit is a must but using too many torches is bad. Not that it's bad to avoid it, but it's always good when all of the content gets touched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Yes, I knew it was driven by the light values, the point about the Heat Map I meant is that if you had this sort of mode, you'd need to remove the Heat Map element from torches, so that placing lots of those didn't induce "Perpetual Screamer Syndrome", since until the player advance enough to make an electrical system, torches would be their only way to generate light to slow the Zombies down. Ah ok. Well, I don't know how bad that would be though. If you managed to build a massive base that requires a screamer-worthy amount of torches (assuming that for some reason you need every square inch of it covered), you have probably reached the point of being able to use electricity. I never really paid attention to when I am capable in relation to my base size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Ah ok. Well, I don't know how bad that would be though. If you managed to build a massive base that requires a screamer-worthy amount of torches (assuming that for some reason you need every square inch of it covered), you have probably reached the point of being able to use electricity. I never really paid attention to when I am capable in relation to my base size. Probably true, perhaps the Heat map element to torches would need only be tweaked a little, or the area of effect increased as Dimpy suggested. Either way, having a "walk in light, run in dark" zombie mode would be fun to have again, but I doubt we'll see it. Still, one can hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 The thing that might deter them now from such a thing are the options. The option to turn off run in the dark can have a different meaning in the context of zombies run at night. If you have no run in dark, but run at night, does this mean they run or no? It would be weird if you had it set to run at night, but no run in dark and it resulted in them walking around outside, but once they got into your well-lit base, they started running (because it's night). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 The thing that might deter them now from such a thing are the options. The option to turn off run in the dark can have a different meaning in the context of zombies run at night. If you have no run in dark, but run at night, does this mean they run or no? It would be weird if you had it set to run at night, but no run in dark and it resulted in them walking around outside, but once they got into your well-lit base, they started running (because it's night). One of the reasons I doubt we'll see it - the more options in a game, the more that has to be tested, and not just more, but exponentially more unfortunately. Doubling the number of options results in far more than doubling the number of combinations that have to be tested for. Still, it'd be nice to see such an option, but yeah, probably not going to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 It might be an opportunity to have this apply to a certain zombie type, as opposed to a global setting. The settings would work as usual, but for the zombie here it just increases the speed already determined by the settings plus x percent. Maybe the wights... they look like they've thrived in darkness for quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 It might be an opportunity to have this apply to a certain zombie type, as opposed to a global setting. The settings would work as usual, but for the zombie here it just increases the speed already determined by the settings plus x percent. Maybe the wights... they look like they've thrived in darkness for quite some time. It could make for an interesting new type of zombie, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 It could make for an interesting new type of zombie, that's for sure. Could take it a step further, where the zombie actually slows down and takes damage in bright light. That could bring lighting to a new level on par with traps. A good use for motion sensors attached to spotlights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimpy Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 It might be an opportunity to have this apply to a certain zombie type, as opposed to a global setting. The settings would work as usual, but for the zombie here it just increases the speed already determined by the settings plus x percent. Maybe the wights... they look like they've thrived in darkness for quite some time. Yeah. I'm thinking shadow zombies. When in light, they look mostly normal, expect for some smoky particle effects. When in darkness, they half dissociate into smoke, and move at unnerving speeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Yeah. I'm thinking shadow zombies. When in light, they look mostly normal, expect for some smoky particle effects. When in darkness, they half dissociate into smoke, and move at unnerving speeds. What's funny is that when this was a mechanic, where other zombies would slow down in the light, the Wight was unaffected and would still move fast. The exact opposite of what I was thinking. I like the idea of this strange smoky character, but I think that a lot of players would see it as out of place. While the game is far from being realistic, it is even further from being this fantastical. At least that's what I've seen in response to similar ideas. The Behemoth was scrapped for this reason. In a way it's a shame, because there would be an infinite possibility of zombie types otherwise. I would at most perhaps introduce another stage of zombie progression. Assuming that Wights developed in darkness, perhaps something that did so even more.... like a cross between a Wight and a spider zombie, pale, very animal and Golem-looking, but not too far-fetched that it couldn't exist among the others without people crying about immersion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimpy Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 I don't know. Maybe if they doubled down on the paranormal aspects of the game, this kind of immersion wouldn't be a problem. The seven day horde makes a lot more sense if you think of it as a curse that attracts zombies rather than some legitimately natural occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Yeah, that does make sense, and would open things up. They seem to like sticking more to the realistic side, I think mostly due to feedback. It doesn't matter to me which they go, but I hope there is some cohesion to everything. If this were my game, I would've gone with crazy stuff right from the start. It's hard to work on something where creativity an imagination is stifled. If this wasn't my game, but suddenly it was, I would probably introduce different things slowly so nobody would notice, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 If the player runs or drives around without interacting with zombies (not attacking them), just spawn more vultures, that can actually kick off the player from a vehicle. They could also puke some kind of slime that incapacitates a vehicle for a time. (negative reinforcement) Also, increase the lootbag droprate during that time, so players really WANT to kill as many as possible. (positive reinforcement) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Also, increase the lootbag droprate during that time, so players really WANT to kill as many as possible. (positive reinforcement) I don't think that positive reinforcement has any place here tbh. The horde as an event is something negative that anyone would want to avoid. If it was positive enough to make players actually want to "participate" you will have turned it into something else - a loot delivery event. I don't know. Maybe if they doubled down on the paranormal aspects of the game, this kind of immersion wouldn't be a problem. The seven day horde makes a lot more sense if you think of it as a curse that attracts zombies rather than some legitimately natural occurrence. Well all the lore is based on natural, even if slightly far-fetched, events, so that would be kind of inconsistent. None of that matters to me though, if they are able to create quality horror. The light component, acid rain, emp power outages all have potential. I don't think a behemoth has much potential in that sense. MM said that they could consider making the zombies move in front of the vehicle to damage it as much as possible, so that it stops being completely risk-free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pApA^LeGBa Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 i still don´t see why this is even a discussion when people that don´t wanna deal with hordes can just turn them off in the settings? I mean why bother with a solution for something that can be avoided by default via menu? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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