Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[madmole]

Some opinions on the last few pages of conversations:

 

On learning by doing:

 

I didn't mind LBD and didn't find it limiting. It was essentially giving the player bonuses for what they were going to do anyway.

 

However, I don't mind the current system at all, and probably prefer it now that I'm used to it.

 

The only issue I have with the current system is that the XP gain is far too biased towards killing zombies. But that's a balance issue, not a fundamental gameplay issue.

 

Is this based on 17.2 or 17.0? From what I saw it non combat XP was very generous if you were perked up and had good tools.

[madmole]

^ fair enough. It is a game and yours to boot, so understandable that gameplay balance can trump realism.

 

 

 

^ not really understanding this sentence.

 

I'll freely admit to being a poor writer. Didn't manage to complete my thoughts on Super sonic vs. Sub sonic ammunition.

 

A high powered rifle with a suppressor still makes a quite loud super sonic 'crack', when using normal ammo.

The source of that crack is quite difficult to pinpoint compared to same setup minus the can.

For gameplay, to me, the ideal setup would be that normal ammo would wake up all nearby zeds but they wouldn't know exactly where the noise came from.

Adding & using sub-sonic ammo would be when the sound profile wouldn't nessisarily wake zeds in nearby rooms.

And a bow would always be quieter than a suppressed rifle using sub-sonic rounds.

 

Peace

That is pretty much our goal too. I just meant we don't use the realism trump card at design meetings, if realism was that great, nobody would play video games

[Demonoid74]

Yes we'll have to make some brass and spiked knuckles. And mods for them.

 

I love you!

[Odetta]

Yes we'll have to make some brass and spiked knuckles. And mods for them.

 

Idea time:

 

Wolf and dog teeth spiked knuckles

 

Barbed wire boxing gloves (mod)

 

Pimp Rings

 

Broken glass boxing gloves (mod)

 

Nail boxing gloves (mod)

 

Hammer fist

 

Socker Boppers (more fun than a pillow fight)

[Demonoid74]

Make Dire Wolves drop the required teeth and not just wolves or dogs...giving a reason to kill and not avoid them

[Odetta]

Make Dire Wolves drop the required teeth and not just wolves or dogs...giving a reason to kill and not avoid them

 

Speaking of that, I wish they would have left them black. Now you can't even tell them apart most of the time because they are the same color.

[Crater Creator]

I'd like to see a more modern melee weaponry mechanic, where the speed, duration and swing angle were taken into account when calculating damage.

What do I mean,

Many games already use a similar system and this makes mele weapons really interesting.

Is there something in the plans?

 

A GIF really is worth a thousand words here. When the melee-build guys on our server complained, I had to concede that, even though I understand how all that matters is whether the crosshairs are aimed at the target, it's not an intuitive mechanic. It makes sense for projectiles and poking animations, but not for swinging animations. So I do think overhauling hit detection for melee weapons is important.

 

Is that in a destructible world?

 

TFP mentioned before that the issue with the idea of "follow the actual swing of the weapon" in 7D2D is that you may be surrounded by destructible blocks. Think about fighting a zombie in a tunnel. Does the hammer/axe just bonk off of the ceiling or side wall on the backswint and you lose your attack? That admittedly neat-o orange path impacts two walls - do both take damage if you miss the zed? Maybe the zed is standing in a doorway and your swing arc goes right through his head...after impacting the right-hand frame. Destroy the doorway first, then you can attack the zed?

 

There may be ways to solve the issue, but anywho that's what I remember TFP saying last time it was discussed.

 

Yes, I think that's a solvable issue. I would propose each swing can only count as hitting one thing. In cases where multiple collisions are detected like [doorframe, zombie, wall], the collision closest to the center is the one that counts, where "center" could mean closest to the crosshairs, or closest to the midpoint of the animation. If you want fancy effects like a sledgehammer that knocks down multiple enemies per swing, that can be a radial area of effect centered on where that one hit connects.

 

First of all, that portable turret sounds amazing. How many hit points does it have and can you put mods in it?

 

Also, wat's the range on the flamethrower?

 

Those are really questions to ask after they "meet with programmers on some features but hopefully its all pretty doable." You don't tune a weapon's stats like hit points and range before its features are implemented.

[madmole]

Speaking of that, I wish they would have left them black. Now you can't even tell them apart most of the time because they are the same color.

 

They aren't black with glowing eyes? Thats weird I can fix it.

[FA_Q2]

Speaking of that, I wish they would have left them black. Now you can't even tell them apart most of the time because they are the same color.

 

....

 

This may be why I have seen such a wide variety in meat count when harvesting from wolves lol.

 

I did not notice.

[Odetta]

They aren't black with glowing eyes? Thats weird I can fix it.

 

Their eyeballs are still glowy but their fur is grey like the little wolf.

 

[NinjaMoa]

Still need to discuss all the smaller details. It might just have everlasting power otherwise if it ran out of ammo you would be totally defenseless and the idea is melee.

 

Would a system like the Metro games have for electricity work?

Also it could be added to the headlights as well to stop them from having unlimited power.

 

For those who don't know you have a Universal Charger(Dynamo based) which is used to generate electricity.

[danielspoa]

ok, so I didn't read all the posts ofc but some of the recent ones, and..

 

+ 1 to learn by doing (please +agility for running long distances)

 

+ I'm all for a better melee detection system. And I hope a better system would allow us to hit multiple enemies with a big axe swing (I currently use an AoE effect added to it but it's not realistic)

 

+ any info on 17.3 release?

[AtomicUs5000]

Would a system like the Metro games have for electricity work?

Also it could be added to the headlights as well to stop them from having unlimited power.

 

For those who don't know you have a Universal Charger(Dynamo based) which is used to generate electricity.

 

I like it. I suppose if they didn't want to make a entire system out of it, they could put a dynamo on the butt end of the baton, and instead of just holding the baton while idle, the character is always cranking it.

[Weazelsun]

Is this based on 17.2 or 17.0? From what I saw it non combat XP was very generous if you were perked up and had good tools.

 

Hm... personally I only the benefits of it once I got into a higher gamestage / player level. As when I first started my main priority is with fortitude and agility to ensure survival. Now for those that immediately spec in strength and int then, yes. Most of their XP would come from gathering / noncombat related activities.

[FA_Q2]

Problem with trains (and any large vehicle) is that it's either going to be made out of blocks, which CAN look good but can also look goofy, AND can never be "used" like:

 

 

...or you have it as an entity (like vehicles are) or blocks (like damaged vehicles are and the tank will be), in which case it's goofy because you can hit ONE spot and destroy something that takes up like 20x5x5 or something:

 

 

Either way is not a good solution.

 

Subway. Tracks are not so wonkey because they can go into a collapsed section. Basically, a cave like POI as they have now that just appears near skyscrapers rather than out in the countryside.

[FA_Q2]

there will be no learn by doing of anything. I just don't get the allure to that. All it does is control min maxers destiny and you end up doing artificial or repetitive things you would never do in order to grind it up. Like just last night i found myself in skyrim blocking and letting mudcrabs hit me to level my heavy armor and block, because on harder difficulties and the mods i run, its about impossible to get hit enough to raise your skill to a decent level.

 

Like loot every nest and trash bag. I don't bother with that mid game, but if my looting ability was tied to grinding i'd be sure to hit every dumb trash sack and nest in the game, despite me not using a bow at all or care about eggs because i have a farm and as a sniper i get tons of meat traveling.

 

No matter how you design it, it ends up forcing players to grind stuff to improve their abilities and its not fun or good design.

 

amen! Hallelujah! Speak truth to power.

 

[Roland]

ok, so I didn't read all the posts ofc but some of the recent ones, and..

 

+ 1 to learn by doing

 

Maybe you should read more of the posts...

[danielspoa]

Maybe you should read more of the posts...

 

there's quite a lot of them, and the clean thread says last post 1 week ago :|

[MCZERN]

Is this based on 17.2 or 17.0? From what I saw it non combat XP was very generous if you were perked up and had good tools.

 

I was going to say once you get forged iron and iron tools you can make 3-4 levels a night just through mining. Even at 120+ you can easily make a level or two just by gathering resources.

[bdubyah]

+ I'm all for a better melee detection system. And I hope a better system would allow us to hit multiple enemies with a big axe swing (I currently use an AoE effect added to it but it's not realistic)

?

 

I'd like better hit detection as it currently just feels "off" when swinging at zeds. But being able to hit multiple enemies with an axe doesn't really make sense. If you swung a fire axe at a zed and connected, it's probably gonna stick in them a bit. At best, lop off a limb or chunk of them and fall out, but your momentum would still be pretty much stopped. I've seen a few people talking about being able to hit multiple enemies at once and it just doesn't make sense to me.

[Demonoid74]

I'd like better hit detection as it currently just feels "off" when swinging at zeds. But being able to hit multiple enemies with an axe doesn't really make sense. If you swung a fire axe at a zed and connected, it's probably gonna stick in them a bit. At best, lop off a limb or chunk of them and fall out, but your momentum would still be pretty much stopped. I've seen a few people talking about being able to hit multiple enemies at once and it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Probably because a lot of them watch walking dead , where she uses a magical unbreakable vorpal katana+5 to kill multiple zombies in one swing...

[danielspoa]

I'd like better hit detection as it currently just feels "off" when swinging at zeds. But being able to hit multiple enemies with an axe doesn't really make sense. If you swung a fire axe at a zed and connected, it's probably gonna stick in them a bit. At best, lop off a limb or chunk of them and fall out, but your momentum would still be pretty much stopped. I've seen a few people talking about being able to hit multiple enemies at once and it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

now that I think about it you are right

 

I'm too used to RPGs

[Menace312]

Very inefficient with the new design. There are now melee weapons under every attribute, so you can get XP using the weapon you want and most likely would spend the perks on improving the stuff you use.

 

You can't design a whole system full of possibilities in a deep game like 7 Days around your one use case where it kind of makes sense to learn by doing. But then again, people might end up spam smacking grass to level up their clubs. Learn by doing forces players into a min max play style instead of just playing organically and doing the smart thing to survive. Maybe you are one of those guys who likes to punch grass. I don't want to have to take 10000 hits in combat to be the master of heavy armor, I'd rather just buy the perk get xp for most reasonable activities.

 

Even the old LBD system you could bypass and just buy the next rank with a perk point. So nothing has changed except we took away the senseless grinding doing boring stuff.

 

I understand your position... The game has to appeal to a wide audience.

 

But really... Whats so bad about the min max meta?

No one is forceing you to max everything... And the game should reflect that (you dont need master in everything, to "win" the game).

 

Its like you are catering to players with OCD.

[xorex]

Is that in a destructible world?

 

TFP mentioned before that the issue with the idea of "follow the actual swing of the weapon" in 7D2D is that you may be surrounded by destructible blocks. Think about fighting a zombie in a tunnel. Does the hammer/axe just bonk off of the ceiling or side wall on the backswint and you lose your attack? That admittedly neat-o orange path impacts two walls - do both take damage if you miss the zed? Maybe the zed is standing in a doorway and your swing arc goes right through his head...after impacting the right-hand frame. Destroy the doorway first, then you can attack the zed?

 

There may be ways to solve the issue, but anywho that's what I remember TFP saying last time it was discussed.

 

The weapons have two separate types of damage

        <passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="base_set" value="XX"/>
       <passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="base_set" value="XX"/>
	<passive_effect name="BlockRange" operation="base_set" value="XX"/>

we don't have to do complicated damage calculations for the blocks.

If you hit a zombie, you have destroyed a tunnel, you may need to reduce the range of your weapon's impact on blocks or make your tunnels wider than the hell))

[bdubyah]

Probably because a lot of them watch walking dead , where she uses a magical unbreakable vorpal katana+5 to kill multiple zombies in one swing...

 

I guess. Haha.

 

I'd be fine with having an arc cast out when you attack, and whatever zed is in line to get hit first is the one to get hit. I do understand the whole hitting blocks problem, but surely it could be figured out. If anything, just make it so if your cursor isn't pointed directly at a block for the duration of the swing, you don't hit it.

 

Or just make it hit the blocks, and that counts as a hit and cancels the attack there. Make you be more precise and aware of your immediate surroundings before swinging all willy-nilly. That's how it is in the Souls games. Don't wanna be trying to use a halberd in a hallway. Lol.